I think there is something to be said about efficiency of energy-
give a shit about things that actually matter-
But in the spirit of good debate, I will expend some energy here:
Unless you disagree with commerce and selling anything then you may have a point, but if not then there will always be links in the chain that are not ideal.
You could argue that Pearl Jam should not even be producing a CD, vinyl, paper, Deep magazine, stickers, T-Shirts or even having concerts at all given that they are usually in corporate named venues, essentially creating all of the waste in burning fossil fuels that the fans use to get there, but go one step further - They shouldn't even practice as a band- that uses energy and profits power corporations who are flooding wild lands to make dams or if not burning coal or if not creating nuclear waste that will last virtually forever- it should be all acoustic- but where does the wood come from to make the guitar? Natually fallen trees only with road kill cat gut strings. Its easy.
To be free of hipocracy is an impossibility unless you admit that life is about making the best decisions under the circumstances some of which could be in part contracdictory in a direct or in some distant way to your core values.
On top of that, when you get married and start to have children you have to still be constantly pissed off at everything so your kids don't think you think everything is ok, and they realize how screwed up everything is right off the bat and never forget it.
That way you would never write anything close to a pop song.
Really man - are we comparing an artist no one would have given a shit about and would still be working out of back rooms in LA bars if not for her elaborate stage dress to PEARL JAM?
Okay, so a couple of things:
1) While I greatly enjoy Lady Gaga, I never said I like Gaga's music more or even as much as Pearl Jam's. Pearl Jam has a depth and variety to their music that few bands can come close to matching and I don't think Gaga is even in the conversation at this point.
2) My point is about her integrity and standing up for her beliefs. This is something that I really admire about Pearl Jam and I hope they continue in that vain. To me, deciding whether or not to continue a partnership with Target knowing what is now known about them (i.e. their contributions to right-wing, bigoted politicians) should be a no-brainer for a group still putting their values ahead of their bottom line. And even that being said, if they do continue with Target, I'll still love them, still buy their album, still see them as many times as I can afford every tour (probably one or two more, actually); it will just be a little bit disappointing.
3) Saying that LG would still be playing out of backrooms in bars if not for her stage dress is sort of missing the point of her. Whereas (imho) bands like U2 and Tool have come to depend on stage effects and costumes to the detriment of their live performances, LG is one big avant-garde piece. It's all part of the package with her, the music is just a piece of the whole. She's more like Alice Cooper than Madonna and she takes it to the next level.[/quote]
Anyone happen to catch Lady Gaga at Lollapalooza 2007? I unfortunately did - her lip-synching didn't match the skipping music track, so personally I don't get all the hype surrounding him, er, her. On another note, no one has mentioned that PJ is one of the only bands to offer all its live shows for purchase to its fans. Sure, they turn a profit on this, but no longer do we only have shitty quality bootlegs for purchase. Any other bands care that much about their fans? I guess these "sell outs" better do a commercial soon to boost their bootleg sales, huh?
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2016: Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Jacksonville, JazzFest 2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1 2022: Nashville 2023: Ft. Worth II 2024: Baltimore
i think every band sells out to a certain extent. if they didn't, their music wouldn't reach so many people.
to which case they'd end up playing in some shit "punk" club to the same 200+ kids every weekend while not growing as a band or musically and eventually quit being a band.
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
Being mad about a deal with a big company (for cd/lp distribution) is everyones own right. But it might be based on wrong conclusions. The term "Not seeing the bigger picture" fits well here.
First of all, they signed with epic records, a sony label, some 20 years ago. Would we have been happier if they would have signed with an independent label back then? Ask yourself this question if you dislike the way PJ aproached the backspacer distribution. Keep in mind they are their own label now. Target paid them for like two million album units (if I recall correctly), wich would make it a multimillion dollar deal. Think that maybe this kept ticket prices lower for us.
And remember, the band members make a living as musicians. Its not like this is a hobby for them, and actually earn a living as doctors, arquitects, or any other occupations. Of course, they were already wealthy before backspacer. But money does not grow on trees and I for one, as many others I believe, think they really give back, or have given back, to many different causes.
If any of them would decide to buy mansions, hot rods, spend money on drugs, prostitutes, parties, etc it would be their decision (and life). But we don´t support them for what they do, literally. We support them for the music they create. Would you like it if they would keep releasing records sounding the same as their most mainstream and most succesful record? Or if eddie sings about how angry he is about his childhood, not knowing who his dad is, etc, etc?
Don´t you think him singing about how happy he is now in his 40´s? In love with someone. In love with music. But also realising it could all end if he dies. Don´t you feel this authentic? Rather than singing about the same old song and dance all these years?
Backspacer is a fun uptempo record. In a PJ kind of way. You either like it or you don´t.
Target, for them was a good deal. Its not up to us to decide.
Pearl Jam didn't sell out and they aren't hypocrites. They changed their minds. Aren't we all tolerant liberals here? Isn't life all about keeping an open mind? Corporations and products aren't inherently evil. God rest his soul but Bill Hicks was a doofus for saying that. Ed probably regrets what he said (saying "Fuck You" to someone for endorsing something is just a tad extreme I'd say). Target is a good company and Pearl Jam knew they could trust them with their product (yes everyone, their music is a product). The band grew up and they and we are better off for it.
So this life is sacrifice...
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
Plus, you don´t really think those muisical instruments are cheap, do you? How about recording an album, or a single song?
These issues are huge here in Guatemala. Have you heard a guatemalan band? No "big" corporations support them. A musician here has to earn a living as something else. Not as a musician. I really love two bands here. Bands that I think would have made it if they were somewhere else. Like USA or europe.
I would not trash them for making a deal with a huge company to promote themselves. As long as their music stays true to themselves, it would not matter. Even if its used in a commercial. Who am I to judge that?
The artist should want as many people to experience their art, so it's all about marketing these days. If a store selling their art is promoting it, then so-be-it. No biggie. They're not sell-outs because they market themselves. They gave in to ticketmaster so we could see them perform. No one mentions that anymore.
please DONT delete this thread, please allow open discussion and debate like Pearl Jam used to encourage.
The comedian Bill Hicks said that the second an artist endorses a product they were off the roll call forever because you could never trust a thing they would say after that.
EV: Yeah, that's how I feel. I saw something with Wyclef Jean last night for some fucking product and Counting Crows for Coca-Cola or something. Fuck them. Busta Rhymes for anti-perspirant? What the fuck is that? Why? They have a set of morals they can run with and that's fine but I'm just gonna say, "Fuck you".
How are those commercials different from lip syncing in front of a target logo?
How do you guys justify that hypocrisy?
It feels to me like Pearl Jam arent interested in the music as much any more and its become more of a job. The Fixer certainly sounds to me like its made 100% to make money rather than express anything or be creative. The Fixer demo sounded like it could have become a really great song, so maybe this is all Eddie, since he's the one who "fixed" it. But it was all Eddie that was against that kind of thing even 6 years ago. I just dont understand and I don't really understand how they seem to have managed to get away with it. I mean, the amount of social commentary and depth in songs like Grievance and Insignificane is amazing. Those songs still amaze me 11 years later. The lyrical content on riot act is incredible. They were going in such an interesting direction but then they came out with S/T and it seemed like they were forcing themselves in a direction that doesnt feel natural because it will make them more money. I really just want to discuss this guys, I'm not looking to make anyone feel bad for liking post-2005 pearl jam. i just wannt know your guys thoughts on this.
just please watch the two videos and read this post and respond with some intelligent debate, dont get angry at me for my opinion.
looking forward to responses
because A it wasn't lip synched, and B the product they where 'selling' was themselves
The Verizon 2008 sponsoring actually bothered me more than the Target thing. I never understood what the hell they were trying to do with Verizon, and that actually affected the concert experience directly (seeing huge billboards and promotions everywhere).
Pearl Jam has nothing to apologize for. I'm not sure if the Target deal was the wisest move for them, simply because of the confusion it caused, but I understand why they did it.
Backspacer sounds every bit as real as every other Pearl Jam album. It's brimming with honest emotion. I found The Fixer very touching the first time I heard it... still do. The End is one of the saddest songs ever put to record. You can't fake that.
It just seems absurd to get upset about it. Every artist "sells out" in a sense... at least Pearl Jam is consciously minimizing it. Even if Pearl Jam suddenly developed a Nickelback-like ethos toward making music, which I can't ever see happening, what does it really matter? The world is increasingly fucked up every year... I'm not sure if human civilization will still exist by the time this century is over. So fuck all this noise.
Plus, I've been shopping at Target for many years. :thumbup:
A discussion of business practices is one thing on the site provided by the band, but it's not ok to say F you to the band. See the Posting Guidelines and follow them to avoid your account becoming read-only.
There are a few other threads around here on this topic and people did not make that rude comment. Find them because this one is done.
Comments
I think thats the difference these days. People dont give a shit anymore.
8/7/08, 6/9/09
give a shit about things that actually matter-
But in the spirit of good debate, I will expend some energy here:
Unless you disagree with commerce and selling anything then you may have a point, but if not then there will always be links in the chain that are not ideal.
You could argue that Pearl Jam should not even be producing a CD, vinyl, paper, Deep magazine, stickers, T-Shirts or even having concerts at all given that they are usually in corporate named venues, essentially creating all of the waste in burning fossil fuels that the fans use to get there, but go one step further - They shouldn't even practice as a band- that uses energy and profits power corporations who are flooding wild lands to make dams or if not burning coal or if not creating nuclear waste that will last virtually forever- it should be all acoustic- but where does the wood come from to make the guitar? Natually fallen trees only with road kill cat gut strings. Its easy.
To be free of hipocracy is an impossibility unless you admit that life is about making the best decisions under the circumstances some of which could be in part contracdictory in a direct or in some distant way to your core values.
On top of that, when you get married and start to have children you have to still be constantly pissed off at everything so your kids don't think you think everything is ok, and they realize how screwed up everything is right off the bat and never forget it.
That way you would never write anything close to a pop song.
Okay, so a couple of things:
1) While I greatly enjoy Lady Gaga, I never said I like Gaga's music more or even as much as Pearl Jam's. Pearl Jam has a depth and variety to their music that few bands can come close to matching and I don't think Gaga is even in the conversation at this point.
2) My point is about her integrity and standing up for her beliefs. This is something that I really admire about Pearl Jam and I hope they continue in that vain. To me, deciding whether or not to continue a partnership with Target knowing what is now known about them (i.e. their contributions to right-wing, bigoted politicians) should be a no-brainer for a group still putting their values ahead of their bottom line. And even that being said, if they do continue with Target, I'll still love them, still buy their album, still see them as many times as I can afford every tour (probably one or two more, actually); it will just be a little bit disappointing.
3) Saying that LG would still be playing out of backrooms in bars if not for her stage dress is sort of missing the point of her. Whereas (imho) bands like U2 and Tool have come to depend on stage effects and costumes to the detriment of their live performances, LG is one big avant-garde piece. It's all part of the package with her, the music is just a piece of the whole. She's more like Alice Cooper than Madonna and she takes it to the next level.[/quote]
Anyone happen to catch Lady Gaga at Lollapalooza 2007? I unfortunately did - her lip-synching didn't match the skipping music track, so personally I don't get all the hype surrounding him, er, her. On another note, no one has mentioned that PJ is one of the only bands to offer all its live shows for purchase to its fans. Sure, they turn a profit on this, but no longer do we only have shitty quality bootlegs for purchase. Any other bands care that much about their fans? I guess these "sell outs" better do a commercial soon to boost their bootleg sales, huh?
1996: Ft Lauderdale
1998: Birmingham
2000: Charlotte, Tampa
2003: Tampa, Atlanta, Phoenix
2004: Kissimmee
2008: West Palm Beach, Bonnaroo, Columbia
2010: MSG2
2012: Music Midtown
2014: Memphis
2018: Wrigley 1, Fenway 1
2022: Nashville
2023: Ft. Worth II
2024: Baltimore
Upcoming: 2025 Hollywood, FL Night 2
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
First of all, they signed with epic records, a sony label, some 20 years ago. Would we have been happier if they would have signed with an independent label back then? Ask yourself this question if you dislike the way PJ aproached the backspacer distribution. Keep in mind they are their own label now. Target paid them for like two million album units (if I recall correctly), wich would make it a multimillion dollar deal. Think that maybe this kept ticket prices lower for us.
And remember, the band members make a living as musicians. Its not like this is a hobby for them, and actually earn a living as doctors, arquitects, or any other occupations. Of course, they were already wealthy before backspacer. But money does not grow on trees and I for one, as many others I believe, think they really give back, or have given back, to many different causes.
If any of them would decide to buy mansions, hot rods, spend money on drugs, prostitutes, parties, etc it would be their decision (and life). But we don´t support them for what they do, literally. We support them for the music they create. Would you like it if they would keep releasing records sounding the same as their most mainstream and most succesful record? Or if eddie sings about how angry he is about his childhood, not knowing who his dad is, etc, etc?
Don´t you think him singing about how happy he is now in his 40´s? In love with someone. In love with music. But also realising it could all end if he dies. Don´t you feel this authentic? Rather than singing about the same old song and dance all these years?
Backspacer is a fun uptempo record. In a PJ kind of way. You either like it or you don´t.
Target, for them was a good deal. Its not up to us to decide.
6/30/98 Minneapolis, 10/8/00 East Troy (Brrrr!), 6/16/03 St. Paul, 6/27/06 St. Paul
These issues are huge here in Guatemala. Have you heard a guatemalan band? No "big" corporations support them. A musician here has to earn a living as something else. Not as a musician. I really love two bands here. Bands that I think would have made it if they were somewhere else. Like USA or europe.
I would not trash them for making a deal with a huge company to promote themselves. As long as their music stays true to themselves, it would not matter. Even if its used in a commercial. Who am I to judge that?
http://boe.jeff.k12.wv.us/education/staff/staff.php?sectionid=948&
because A it wasn't lip synched, and B the product they where 'selling' was themselves
Backspacer sounds every bit as real as every other Pearl Jam album. It's brimming with honest emotion. I found The Fixer very touching the first time I heard it... still do. The End is one of the saddest songs ever put to record. You can't fake that.
It just seems absurd to get upset about it. Every artist "sells out" in a sense... at least Pearl Jam is consciously minimizing it. Even if Pearl Jam suddenly developed a Nickelback-like ethos toward making music, which I can't ever see happening, what does it really matter? The world is increasingly fucked up every year... I'm not sure if human civilization will still exist by the time this century is over. So fuck all this noise.
Plus, I've been shopping at Target for many years. :thumbup:
There are a few other threads around here on this topic and people did not make that rude comment. Find them because this one is done.
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