For the Backspacer deal, Target basically was the distribution company. I don't see this as being any different than an band doing a commercial like this and then there being some copy on the screen that says something like "Available only where Sony is sold" or "Exclusively through Capitol Records" or whatever. Is the flashing Target logo irritating? Sure.
This is just the way it is done now. If it wasn't Target, it would be Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc. Pearl Jam realized they had do a deal like that to get the record out there and Target was the one big-box company that allowed it to be sold through other means like iTunes and independent stores. What gets lost in all of this is that if you don't want to support Target, you could march down to an indie store (good luck finding one) and get it from there. I think it was very successful them and I hope they do it again, or something similar since Target seems to have gotten in some hot water lately.
As far as the records go, there is plenty of thoughtful, insightful lyrics on Avocado. I for one am glad he went back to telling stories (WWS, Army Reserve, Gone, Come Back, etc.). That style of songwriting reminds me of songs like Off He Goes. Ed got away from that on Riot Act and I think that is what really hurt that album. Well, that and the dull songs, sleepy voice, and lack of anything remotely catchy. If anything, I think Avocado is far more socially relevant than anything on Riot Act, being that many of the songs are directly about life in America in 2004-6 and about the war in Iraq. The songs mean something. You know what WWS is about, what Army Reserve is about, what Gone is about. No one knows what Get Right, Cropduster, Ghost, etc. are about. Who can relate to that?
I feel the same way about Backspacer. I feel like I can relate to it because I am coming from a similar perspective. I am married, I have kids, I am getting a little older (pushing 40). Songs like Just Breathe speak to my heart because I feel just like that - running around with work and kids and errands, etc. I need to sit and Just Breathe sometimes. Amongst the Waves speaks to me because that is how I feel about my wife and family. The End speaks to me because, even though I don't think about it much, I worry about dying one day and leaving loved ones behind. Ed made me think about it. It is what he does best. Unthought Known reminds me that if I don't like my life or my job, I can step out and try something different or dream something bigger. I think it is the best song they have come up with since Given to Fly and is in my top 3 PJ songs easy.
I absolutely love the direction taken by Avocado and Backspacer. Tighter, more concise, with choruses you can sing along to and pump your fist to live like you could with Alive, Even Flow and Given to Fly. To me, Riot Act sounded like a tired band, one that had kind of lost their direction. I'm glad they found this one. I almost gave up on them after Riot Act. Look, I love the 1992-1998 PJ as much as anyone else, but 27 year old Eddie isn't coming back. That time is gone. He has said many times he isn't concerned with the past. The angst and anger that led to such brilliance as Vs. and Vitalogy has faded with time. It was a magical time, but I think we are seeing a resurgence now and I think they are reaching a peak.
Is one of the requirements of having Target distribute your album that you have to do a commercial for them? People making the "they had to distribute their album somewhere" argument seem to think that this is the case.
Remember when the Lady Gaga types were the least credible musicians out there?
Los Angeles - Sep 11, 1992
Memphis - Aug 15, 2000
Chicago - May 16, 2006
Chicago - Aug 23-24, 2009
Columbus - May 6, 2010
Noblesville - May 7, 2010
Manchester - June 20-21, 2012
Amsterdam - June 26-27, 2012
Berlin - July 4-5, 2012
And as far as holding Eddie to comments made 6 or 20 years ago, views change with experience, new knowledge, etc. It part of growing as a person. Everything changes, nothing is permanent, that includes values, opinions. Being locked into one viewpoint is constraining to personal growth, because situations will arise where your "beliefs" will contradict what should be done.
For example: say you truly believe that killing a fellow human is a sin, but some wacko is on some shooting spree at your work, and the only way to stop them is to kill him. What do you do? Not kill the wacko cause you don't believe it's right? Basically what I'm saying is the situation dictates the action, and trying to lock someone into a certain belief system based on their views from the past, and expecting them to act in ways that applied to there views from that time is not conducive to allowing a person to grow...
I know the example of a wacko shooting people is a bit extreme, but it can be applied to any case where the right action is directly contradictory to some belief...
there's a lot more i could say, but i'm just going to leave it alone. i don't see the point in saying "Fuck You, Eddie" like the original poster did over a distribution deal. no thanks, i'll pass.
who cares? no one should care...you like their music and they're great live and that's all that matters...at least now that i'm in my 30's. the whole "sell out" thing is comical to me...so high school...so immature. as long as pearl jam keep writing and touring i'll be more than happy to support them. life is too short to worry about what band is more underground.
It's all about the music folks. Funny how we sometimes view the band as our spiritual and ethical guidance. AND yes it was also a commercial for Target and if you feel it wasn't your trying to fool yourself to keep that warm fuzzy feeling.
As to Backspacer and ST. Love hearing and watching the band perform those songs live. ACL's taping just incredible.
How are those commercials different from lip syncing in front of a target logo?
In this instance, the band was not lip syncing. It is rather well documented that they recorded several live takes of this song in front of an audience prior to the release of Backspacer. The song's performance was filmed and the resulting footage was edited down to produce a commercial advertising and promoting the album Backspacer, not the corporation Target or someone else's product altogether.
Furthermore, if there was an overdub done, then I believe it was done with a non-album version of the song. My ears tell me that there are some obvious differences between the album version and the commercial version. I suspect that they used one of the live takes. If this is true, it goes further to assert that there was no lip syncing involved.
The greater point here is, I believe, that the band made a commercial to promote their record, not a commercial to promote the corporation Target. Target put their own logo in to the commercial. Plain and simple. That being said, of course it is in the band's financial interests to let people know where the album might be found for purchase. Thinking otherwise is naive of basic economics.
You made this statement "It feels to me like Pearl Jam aren't interested in the music as much any more and its become more of a job…" I ask you to consider that there are two parts to your statement.
1. "...Pearl Jam aren't interested in the music as much any more…"
and
2. "…it's (the act of being in a band/ touring/ writing and recording music) become more of a job…"
With regard to point 1, what evidence can you provide to support this? How do you know what their interests are? Have you discussed it with them or their management? What insight do you have into their artistic and creative drive that the rest of us do not?
I would ask you to consider that you are relying more on how you feel (as you plainly stated), as opposed to how things actually are. I think if you reflect on this and respect that, yes, things have changed over the last 20 years for both yourself and the band, then it is perfectly agreeable to accept the changes in philosophy which you perceive.
With regard to point 2, how do you arrive at this conclusion? Have you heard or read any of the band members address this in interviews? Have you observed direct (not inferred) behavior that leads you to believe that they are not still passionate musicians and appreciate being able to travel and tour and perform for different audiences?
From my perspective, it would be virtually impossible to travel and put on multi-hour shows for close to two decades were it not something I was genuinely interested in. Also, none of us have witnessed the band's writing process so I think it would be a mistake to presume that they view it as all mechanics and no creation.
I've got to admit, when I watched the first video you posted I was pretty disappointed that an artist I respect would so openly trash another artist on stage like that. It pretty much violates the "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" policy as blatantly as possible. It was pretty rude whether you don't like Jewel or you do. It forces me to ask what his problem with her really is? To me this is a much different form of trash talking than the strong expression of his disenchantment with the previous U.S. Presidential administration.
Then I remembered that he did the exact thing during the 1992 New Year's Eve show when he encouraged the crowd to (paraphrase)"…give Marky Mark the fucking finger…" Back then, 18 years ago, I would've thought that his sentiment was right on and thought that it was pretty cool. Now I think it's just a definite sign-of-the-times and level of maturity of that individual (eV) when he said it.
All in all I think it is important to recognize that virtually none of us could begin to understand the complexities of living our lives in the public eye like PJ does. Even though the 2003 example is much more recent than the 1992 example, I find that holding someone to the kind of rigid expectation of behavior that PJ fans tend to hold PJ to is a pretty unjustifiable practice. Specifically because it presupposes that they, as people, are incapable of change or growth in attitude, outlook, and philosophy.
Who else in your life could you reasonably apply this expectation to?
There have been many fine points made in this thread. I've enjoyed reading peoples perceptions of this.
H^2
"A lot more people are capable of being big out there that just don't give themselves a chance." -Stone Gossard
For the Backspacer deal, Target basically was the distribution company. I don't see this as being any different than an band doing a commercial like this and then there being some copy on the screen that says something like "Available only where Sony is sold" or "Exclusively through Capitol Records" or whatever. Is the flashing Target logo irritating? Sure.
This is just the way it is done now. If it wasn't Target, it would be Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc. Pearl Jam realized they had do a deal like that to get the record out there and Target was the one big-box company that allowed it to be sold through other means like iTunes and independent stores. What gets lost in all of this is that if you don't want to support Target, you could march down to an indie store (good luck finding one) and get it from there. I think it was very successful them and I hope they do it again, or something similar since Target seems to have gotten in some hot water lately.
As far as the records go, there is plenty of thoughtful, insightful lyrics on Avocado. I for one am glad he went back to telling stories (WWS, Army Reserve, Gone, Come Back, etc.). That style of songwriting reminds me of songs like Off He Goes. Ed got away from that on Riot Act and I think that is what really hurt that album. Well, that and the dull songs, sleepy voice, and lack of anything remotely catchy. If anything, I think Avocado is far more socially relevant than anything on Riot Act, being that many of the songs are directly about life in America in 2004-6 and about the war in Iraq. The songs mean something. You know what WWS is about, what Army Reserve is about, what Gone is about. No one knows what Get Right, Cropduster, Ghost, etc. are about. Who can relate to that?
I feel the same way about Backspacer. I feel like I can relate to it because I am coming from a similar perspective. I am married, I have kids, I am getting a little older (pushing 40). Songs like Just Breathe speak to my heart because I feel just like that - running around with work and kids and errands, etc. I need to sit and Just Breathe sometimes. Amongst the Waves speaks to me because that is how I feel about my wife and family. The End speaks to me because, even though I don't think about it much, I worry about dying one day and leaving loved ones behind. Ed made me think about it. It is what he does best. Unthought Known reminds me that if I don't like my life or my job, I can step out and try something different or dream something bigger. I think it is the best song they have come up with since Given to Fly and is in my top 3 PJ songs easy.
I absolutely love the direction taken by Avocado and Backspacer. Tighter, more concise, with choruses you can sing along to and pump your fist to live like you could with Alive, Even Flow and Given to Fly. To me, Riot Act sounded like a tired band, one that had kind of lost their direction. I'm glad they found this one. I almost gave up on them after Riot Act. Look, I love the 1992-1998 PJ as much as anyone else, but 27 year old Eddie isn't coming back. That time is gone. He has said many times he isn't concerned with the past. The angst and anger that led to such brilliance as Vs. and Vitalogy has faded with time. It was a magical time, but I think we are seeing a resurgence now and I think they are reaching a peak.
I love your post dude. It makes a hell of alot of sense. The only point I differ is on your thoughts on Riot Act and Backspacer. Riot Act is in my top 3 PJ albums and I just can't get into Backspacer. For me Backspacer is so so weak, and Riot Act is so strong. All Or None, Half Full I amazing, and for me some of the bands best songs. Unthought Known I just don't understand the love. Putting it simple, I think its a weak man's Given To Fly. Starts off good but gets halfway and goes no where, kinda loses direction. But that's me, its great that we all have opinions and they're all different and we all love this band
2000: Manchester
2006: Dublin; Leeds; Arnhem
2007: London
2009: Manchester
2012: Manchester I & II : EV Manchester : Soundgarden Shepherds Bush
2013: Brad Manchester : Soundgarden Manchester
2014: Amsterdam I & II; Berlin; Leeds; Milton Keynes 2018: Berlin; London II; Boston II
I hope PJ has at least as much integrity as Lady Gaga and I. (In all my life I think that might be the oddest sentence I have ever written. )
:shock:
Really man - are we comparing an artist no one would have given a shit about and would still be working out of back rooms in LA bars if not for her elaborate stage dress to PEARL JAM?
So basically, what you're (the OP) saying is that if you were 8 - 12 years old 15 - 20 years ago and thought that girls had cooties, by your logic, you must keep that belief and opinion for the rest of your life.
How has Pearl Jam's deal with Target actually changed your life? I mean your actual day-to-day life. Did you quit your job because of it? Do you eat different food because Pearl Jam had a deal with Target?
Do you hate other bands strictly because their songs have been used in commercials (Kings of Leon, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Moby, Booker T and the MGs, BTO, Dandy Wharhols, the Who, the Rolling Stones, just to name a few)? I don't care if you don't like or don't listen to those artist given as an example - is that you don't like them STRICTLY for allowing their songs to be used in commercials?
Those are the questions we need to ask of ourselves. If you favourite band makes a decision that you don't agree with, can you not just dislke that one decision? Has anyone else directly involved in your life (like your parents, boss, signficant other) made a desicion you didn't agree with and you dismissed them with a "fuck you" and say "you stopped being my parents with the last decision you made before this one"?
The music industry has changed so much in the last 5 or even 2 years and it would seem that unless you are in the music industry you can't fully understand the impact those changes have on artists. The world has changed.
Interesting that some would pay $20-$40 for a fan club membership of a band just to say fuck you to their lead singer. I don't understand that level of hatred on these boards. In my opinion, this band is extremely generous to it's fans and they always have been. Granted, everyone has their own opinion. You have yours, I have mine.
Report this postReply with quoteRe: Pearl Jam Hypocrisy
by adamdude » 12 Mar 2011 01:38
aus_suz wrote:
adamdude wrote:
aus_suz wrote:
I know where u live.... j/k's
I do tho
haha. that you do.
So u doing any EV solo shows??
Yeah I'm going to the second Melbourne show, you?
adamdude
Posts: 76
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 14:34
Private message
Im sorry but didn't you tell Ed Vedder, "FUCK YOU"
Who is the hypocrite? :roll:
:idea: You can stop talking now
hypocrisy is all over the place... honestly I don't care!!! I love the music and if I put attention to every single word that Eddie or someone in the band said probably I'll not be here at this "fan club" - so enjoy the music and the meaning to you and stop "FUCKING" with Eddie :x
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Wrigley Field - Aug 22, 2016 - MY B-DAY!!!
you know if i went from selling several millions albums, to just hundreds of thousands i'd be doing anything and everything to get the numbers back up, and probably the easiest way to do that is to get the people who are not going to by it just because it says "pearl Jam" on it but who are at home watching Brothers and Sister's or Parenthood to hear maybe one or two tracks off it an think "hey, that's not too bad, might go pick up that pearl jam album"
Like not releasing an album through a major label, and at the same time, distributing it exclusively through 4 outlets (their own website, Independent Music Stores, Target, and iTunes)? It does not sound like someone who wants to drive up sales to me. It sounds like someone who made a choice between the integrity of their art and increased record sales. They chose to go the independent route, and as a result, had to make some compromises in distribution to make sure people could still buy what they were putting out.
Salt Lake City, Utah - Sept 28, 2009
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Really man - are we comparing an artist no one would have given a shit about and would still be working out of back rooms in LA bars if not for her elaborate stage dress to PEARL JAM?[/quote]
Okay, so a couple of things:
1) While I greatly enjoy Lady Gaga, I never said I like Gaga's music more or even as much as Pearl Jam's. Pearl Jam has a depth and variety to their music that few bands can come close to matching and I don't think Gaga is even in the conversation at this point.
2) My point is about her integrity and standing up for her beliefs. This is something that I really admire about Pearl Jam and I hope they continue in that vain. To me, deciding whether or not to continue a partnership with Target knowing what is now known about them (i.e. their contributions to right-wing, bigoted politicians) should be a no-brainer for a group still putting their values ahead of their bottom line. And even that being said, if they do continue with Target, I'll still love them, still buy their album, still see them as many times as I can afford every tour (probably one or two more, actually); it will just be a little bit disappointing.
3) Saying that LG would still be playing out of backrooms in bars if not for her stage dress is sort of missing the point of her. Whereas (imho) bands like U2 and Tool have come to depend on stage effects and costumes to the detriment of their live performances, LG is one big avant-garde piece. It's all part of the package with her, the music is just a piece of the whole. She's more like Alice Cooper than Madonna and she takes it to the next level.
"The goal of a coach is to take a guy who has beaten down by his parents, by religion, by society, to take that guy and build him back up to find his spirit to go out and fight" Joe Lewis
please DONT delete this thread, please allow open discussion and debate like Pearl Jam used to encourage.
The comedian Bill Hicks said that the second an artist endorses a product they were off the roll call forever because you could never trust a thing they would say after that.
EV: Yeah, that's how I feel. I saw something with Wyclef Jean last night for some fucking product and Counting Crows for Coca-Cola or something. Fuck them. Busta Rhymes for anti-perspirant? What the fuck is that? Why? They have a set of morals they can run with and that's fine but I'm just gonna say, "Fuck you".
How are those commercials different from lip syncing in front of a target logo?
How do you guys justify that hypocrisy?
It feels to me like Pearl Jam arent interested in the music as much any more and its become more of a job. The Fixer certainly sounds to me like its made 100% to make money rather than express anything or be creative. The Fixer demo sounded like it could have become a really great song, so maybe this is all Eddie, since he's the one who "fixed" it. But it was all Eddie that was against that kind of thing even 6 years ago. I just dont understand and I don't really understand how they seem to have managed to get away with it. I mean, the amount of social commentary and depth in songs like Grievance and Insignificane is amazing. Those songs still amaze me 11 years later. The lyrical content on riot act is incredible. They were going in such an interesting direction but then they came out with S/T and it seemed like they were forcing themselves in a direction that doesnt feel natural because it will make them more money. I really just want to discuss this guys, I'm not looking to make anyone feel bad for liking post-2005 pearl jam. i just wannt know your guys thoughts on this.
just please watch the two videos and read this post and respond with some intelligent debate, dont get angry at me for my opinion.
looking forward to responses
I think there is a big difference from marketing your album/band than a product, IMO. Target just happened to be the distribution channel for the album
Interesting that some would pay $20-$40 for a fan club membership of a band just to say fuck you to their lead singer. I don't understand that level of hatred on these boards. In my opinion, this band is extremely generous to it's fans and they always have been. Granted, everyone has their own opinion. You have yours, I have mine.
I'm sure he has a relevant point from his perspective. I'd add that I've seen it posted a few times that people change their voices and opinions. Grouping with Target or whoever is about the only way to get your music out these days.
The sad part is everyone (or likely quite a few) more millions and millions of people illegally download now. I'd gather that factor alone has to motivate them to adjust the distribution of the new stuff.
In the end do you like the product they provide? If yes, who cares about the rest of it?
"Honesty will always be construed as negative to a dumbass"
:-)
If I was 20 years in toward my job..i would be looking to retire/slow down..if that meant reissuing old albums or being my own boss(record labe)l then i would do it. they have kids now..they get one mulligan after 20 years of charities and moral grandstanding.
principles and realities are 2 different things..they tried to fight ticketmaster and did no videos..but in the end they learned the hard way..it may make you cool to try to fight it..but it's pretty fucking hard to beat the system.
and when people stopped paying for albums they had to raise ticket fees..and when they had a chance to get paid more for going through target..they did it..cause it meant more musical freedom in the end by not having to have a record company tell them what to do..it allowed them to be their own label and still get paid and do what they want..that's the biggest fuck you to the system ..we're our own boss..PJINC. you don't like the direction of the music tough..we're our own label...
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I can see how people would have an issue with PJ doing a deal with Target. The band had very extreme opinions 20 years ago, but things often change. Obviously, someone popular, and with such strong convictions will be put inder a microscope should they decide to deviate.
However, we must keep in mind that PJ did a deal with Sony in the early 90s....they associated their name with a major label, and in exchange, they got an advance, money to record/tour, as well as a $100,000s in promotion and advertising. It can be argued that PJ wouldn't have gotten where they are without Sony.
In a sense, Target acted as the band's record label by providing most of the promotion for the new album. Doing a deal with Target may be viewed as "selling out", but, IMHO, these days, it isn't that much different then signing to a major label.
Though they have obviously done ok financially, using all of their own money to record and promote an album is very risky these days. I was surprised to see them on a Target commercial, but as long as they continue to tour, I am not too bothered.
Someone once joked "I didn't sell-out, I bought-in!
Ok, I think I need to clarify that when I said Eddie, fuck you, I was semi-joking about the fact that Eddie said "fuck you" to all the artists he mentioned in that quote.
I think the thing that doesn't sit right about the Target deal isn't the deal itself, its mostly that commercial and the private gig. The deal itself I probably wouldn't have thought twice about if it didnt come with those things. And maybe even if the commercial was just the fixer clip with "get it exclusively at Target" at the end, rather than Target logos floating everywhere. That makes it a pretty obvious promotion for Target the shop itself too imo. And it seems like these things have come along at the same time as the music becoming more like watered down pop music thats easy to digest for as many people as possible. So I think it may be affecting the music.
Also, a lot may have to do with age. What pisses you off when your 25 isn't necessarily the same thing when you are 45... Well except my kids when they are bad
You want discussion how about i don't give a damn about anything that bothers you concerning this band to me it doesn't make a difference i don't rest my laurels on them , They still give more than they take from us ..
Ok, I think I need to clarify that when I said Eddie, fuck you, I was semi-joking about the fact that Eddie said "fuck you" to all the artists he mentioned in that quote.
LOL... u should've put j/k's after it ...
although sometimes that doesnt work...
Comments
This is just the way it is done now. If it wasn't Target, it would be Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc. Pearl Jam realized they had do a deal like that to get the record out there and Target was the one big-box company that allowed it to be sold through other means like iTunes and independent stores. What gets lost in all of this is that if you don't want to support Target, you could march down to an indie store (good luck finding one) and get it from there. I think it was very successful them and I hope they do it again, or something similar since Target seems to have gotten in some hot water lately.
As far as the records go, there is plenty of thoughtful, insightful lyrics on Avocado. I for one am glad he went back to telling stories (WWS, Army Reserve, Gone, Come Back, etc.). That style of songwriting reminds me of songs like Off He Goes. Ed got away from that on Riot Act and I think that is what really hurt that album. Well, that and the dull songs, sleepy voice, and lack of anything remotely catchy. If anything, I think Avocado is far more socially relevant than anything on Riot Act, being that many of the songs are directly about life in America in 2004-6 and about the war in Iraq. The songs mean something. You know what WWS is about, what Army Reserve is about, what Gone is about. No one knows what Get Right, Cropduster, Ghost, etc. are about. Who can relate to that?
I feel the same way about Backspacer. I feel like I can relate to it because I am coming from a similar perspective. I am married, I have kids, I am getting a little older (pushing 40). Songs like Just Breathe speak to my heart because I feel just like that - running around with work and kids and errands, etc. I need to sit and Just Breathe sometimes. Amongst the Waves speaks to me because that is how I feel about my wife and family. The End speaks to me because, even though I don't think about it much, I worry about dying one day and leaving loved ones behind. Ed made me think about it. It is what he does best. Unthought Known reminds me that if I don't like my life or my job, I can step out and try something different or dream something bigger. I think it is the best song they have come up with since Given to Fly and is in my top 3 PJ songs easy.
I absolutely love the direction taken by Avocado and Backspacer. Tighter, more concise, with choruses you can sing along to and pump your fist to live like you could with Alive, Even Flow and Given to Fly. To me, Riot Act sounded like a tired band, one that had kind of lost their direction. I'm glad they found this one. I almost gave up on them after Riot Act. Look, I love the 1992-1998 PJ as much as anyone else, but 27 year old Eddie isn't coming back. That time is gone. He has said many times he isn't concerned with the past. The angst and anger that led to such brilliance as Vs. and Vitalogy has faded with time. It was a magical time, but I think we are seeing a resurgence now and I think they are reaching a peak.
BOS-9/28/04,9/29/04,6/28/08,6/30/08, 9/5/16, 9/7/16, 9/2/18
MTL-9/15/05, OTT-9/16/05
PHL-5/27/06,5/28/06,10/30/09,10/31/09
CHI-8/2/07,8/5/07,8/23/09,8/24/09
HTFD-6/27/08
ATX-10/4/09, 10/12/14
KC-5/3/2010,STL-5/4/2010
Bridge School-10/23/2010,10/24/2010
PJ20-9/3/2011,9/4/2011
OKC-11/16/13
SEA-12/6/13
TUL-10/8/14
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Remember when the Lady Gaga types were the least credible musicians out there?
http://lefsetz.com/wordpress/index.php/archives/2011/03/10/lady-gagatarget/
Remember when you didn't ever have to defend PJ?
Memphis - Aug 15, 2000
Chicago - May 16, 2006
Chicago - Aug 23-24, 2009
Columbus - May 6, 2010
Noblesville - May 7, 2010
Manchester - June 20-21, 2012
Amsterdam - June 26-27, 2012
Berlin - July 4-5, 2012
And as far as holding Eddie to comments made 6 or 20 years ago, views change with experience, new knowledge, etc. It part of growing as a person. Everything changes, nothing is permanent, that includes values, opinions. Being locked into one viewpoint is constraining to personal growth, because situations will arise where your "beliefs" will contradict what should be done.
For example: say you truly believe that killing a fellow human is a sin, but some wacko is on some shooting spree at your work, and the only way to stop them is to kill him. What do you do? Not kill the wacko cause you don't believe it's right? Basically what I'm saying is the situation dictates the action, and trying to lock someone into a certain belief system based on their views from the past, and expecting them to act in ways that applied to there views from that time is not conducive to allowing a person to grow...
I know the example of a wacko shooting people is a bit extreme, but it can be applied to any case where the right action is directly contradictory to some belief...
These two posts say it all for me.
by adamdude » 12 Mar 2011 01:38
aus_suz wrote:
adamdude wrote:
aus_suz wrote:
I know where u live.... j/k's
I do tho
haha. that you do.
So u doing any EV solo shows??
Yeah I'm going to the second Melbourne show, you?
adamdude
Posts: 76
Joined: 02 Feb 2006 14:34
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Im sorry but didn't you tell Ed Vedder, "FUCK YOU"
Who is the hypocrite? :roll:
:idea: You can stop talking now
As to Backspacer and ST. Love hearing and watching the band perform those songs live. ACL's taping just incredible.
peace
I just find it funny that no one on the board wants to admit it.
I don't care what they do I love the music.
In this instance, the band was not lip syncing. It is rather well documented that they recorded several live takes of this song in front of an audience prior to the release of Backspacer. The song's performance was filmed and the resulting footage was edited down to produce a commercial advertising and promoting the album Backspacer, not the corporation Target or someone else's product altogether.
Furthermore, if there was an overdub done, then I believe it was done with a non-album version of the song. My ears tell me that there are some obvious differences between the album version and the commercial version. I suspect that they used one of the live takes. If this is true, it goes further to assert that there was no lip syncing involved.
The greater point here is, I believe, that the band made a commercial to promote their record, not a commercial to promote the corporation Target. Target put their own logo in to the commercial. Plain and simple. That being said, of course it is in the band's financial interests to let people know where the album might be found for purchase. Thinking otherwise is naive of basic economics.
You made this statement "It feels to me like Pearl Jam aren't interested in the music as much any more and its become more of a job…" I ask you to consider that there are two parts to your statement.
1. "...Pearl Jam aren't interested in the music as much any more…"
and
2. "…it's (the act of being in a band/ touring/ writing and recording music) become more of a job…"
With regard to point 1, what evidence can you provide to support this? How do you know what their interests are? Have you discussed it with them or their management? What insight do you have into their artistic and creative drive that the rest of us do not?
I would ask you to consider that you are relying more on how you feel (as you plainly stated), as opposed to how things actually are. I think if you reflect on this and respect that, yes, things have changed over the last 20 years for both yourself and the band, then it is perfectly agreeable to accept the changes in philosophy which you perceive.
With regard to point 2, how do you arrive at this conclusion? Have you heard or read any of the band members address this in interviews? Have you observed direct (not inferred) behavior that leads you to believe that they are not still passionate musicians and appreciate being able to travel and tour and perform for different audiences?
From my perspective, it would be virtually impossible to travel and put on multi-hour shows for close to two decades were it not something I was genuinely interested in. Also, none of us have witnessed the band's writing process so I think it would be a mistake to presume that they view it as all mechanics and no creation.
I've got to admit, when I watched the first video you posted I was pretty disappointed that an artist I respect would so openly trash another artist on stage like that. It pretty much violates the "If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all" policy as blatantly as possible. It was pretty rude whether you don't like Jewel or you do. It forces me to ask what his problem with her really is? To me this is a much different form of trash talking than the strong expression of his disenchantment with the previous U.S. Presidential administration.
Then I remembered that he did the exact thing during the 1992 New Year's Eve show when he encouraged the crowd to (paraphrase)"…give Marky Mark the fucking finger…" Back then, 18 years ago, I would've thought that his sentiment was right on and thought that it was pretty cool. Now I think it's just a definite sign-of-the-times and level of maturity of that individual (eV) when he said it.
All in all I think it is important to recognize that virtually none of us could begin to understand the complexities of living our lives in the public eye like PJ does. Even though the 2003 example is much more recent than the 1992 example, I find that holding someone to the kind of rigid expectation of behavior that PJ fans tend to hold PJ to is a pretty unjustifiable practice. Specifically because it presupposes that they, as people, are incapable of change or growth in attitude, outlook, and philosophy.
Who else in your life could you reasonably apply this expectation to?
There have been many fine points made in this thread. I've enjoyed reading peoples perceptions of this.
H^2
I love your post dude. It makes a hell of alot of sense. The only point I differ is on your thoughts on Riot Act and Backspacer. Riot Act is in my top 3 PJ albums and I just can't get into Backspacer. For me Backspacer is so so weak, and Riot Act is so strong. All Or None, Half Full I amazing, and for me some of the bands best songs. Unthought Known I just don't understand the love. Putting it simple, I think its a weak man's Given To Fly. Starts off good but gets halfway and goes no where, kinda loses direction. But that's me, its great that we all have opinions and they're all different and we all love this band
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:shock:
Really man - are we comparing an artist no one would have given a shit about and would still be working out of back rooms in LA bars if not for her elaborate stage dress to PEARL JAM?
How has Pearl Jam's deal with Target actually changed your life? I mean your actual day-to-day life. Did you quit your job because of it? Do you eat different food because Pearl Jam had a deal with Target?
Do you hate other bands strictly because their songs have been used in commercials (Kings of Leon, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash, Moby, Booker T and the MGs, BTO, Dandy Wharhols, the Who, the Rolling Stones, just to name a few)? I don't care if you don't like or don't listen to those artist given as an example - is that you don't like them STRICTLY for allowing their songs to be used in commercials?
Those are the questions we need to ask of ourselves. If you favourite band makes a decision that you don't agree with, can you not just dislke that one decision? Has anyone else directly involved in your life (like your parents, boss, signficant other) made a desicion you didn't agree with and you dismissed them with a "fuck you" and say "you stopped being my parents with the last decision you made before this one"?
The music industry has changed so much in the last 5 or even 2 years and it would seem that unless you are in the music industry you can't fully understand the impact those changes have on artists. The world has changed.
hypocrisy is all over the place... honestly I don't care!!! I love the music and if I put attention to every single word that Eddie or someone in the band said probably I'll not be here at this "fan club" - so enjoy the music and the meaning to you and stop "FUCKING" with Eddie :x
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Like not releasing an album through a major label, and at the same time, distributing it exclusively through 4 outlets (their own website, Independent Music Stores, Target, and iTunes)? It does not sound like someone who wants to drive up sales to me. It sounds like someone who made a choice between the integrity of their art and increased record sales. They chose to go the independent route, and as a result, had to make some compromises in distribution to make sure people could still buy what they were putting out.
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Really man - are we comparing an artist no one would have given a shit about and would still be working out of back rooms in LA bars if not for her elaborate stage dress to PEARL JAM?[/quote]
Okay, so a couple of things:
1) While I greatly enjoy Lady Gaga, I never said I like Gaga's music more or even as much as Pearl Jam's. Pearl Jam has a depth and variety to their music that few bands can come close to matching and I don't think Gaga is even in the conversation at this point.
2) My point is about her integrity and standing up for her beliefs. This is something that I really admire about Pearl Jam and I hope they continue in that vain. To me, deciding whether or not to continue a partnership with Target knowing what is now known about them (i.e. their contributions to right-wing, bigoted politicians) should be a no-brainer for a group still putting their values ahead of their bottom line. And even that being said, if they do continue with Target, I'll still love them, still buy their album, still see them as many times as I can afford every tour (probably one or two more, actually); it will just be a little bit disappointing.
3) Saying that LG would still be playing out of backrooms in bars if not for her stage dress is sort of missing the point of her. Whereas (imho) bands like U2 and Tool have come to depend on stage effects and costumes to the detriment of their live performances, LG is one big avant-garde piece. It's all part of the package with her, the music is just a piece of the whole. She's more like Alice Cooper than Madonna and she takes it to the next level.
I think there is a big difference from marketing your album/band than a product, IMO. Target just happened to be the distribution channel for the album
I'm sure he has a relevant point from his perspective. I'd add that I've seen it posted a few times that people change their voices and opinions. Grouping with Target or whoever is about the only way to get your music out these days.
The sad part is everyone (or likely quite a few) more millions and millions of people illegally download now. I'd gather that factor alone has to motivate them to adjust the distribution of the new stuff.
In the end do you like the product they provide? If yes, who cares about the rest of it?
:-)
principles and realities are 2 different things..they tried to fight ticketmaster and did no videos..but in the end they learned the hard way..it may make you cool to try to fight it..but it's pretty fucking hard to beat the system.
and when people stopped paying for albums they had to raise ticket fees..and when they had a chance to get paid more for going through target..they did it..cause it meant more musical freedom in the end by not having to have a record company tell them what to do..it allowed them to be their own label and still get paid and do what they want..that's the biggest fuck you to the system ..we're our own boss..PJINC. you don't like the direction of the music tough..we're our own label...
However, we must keep in mind that PJ did a deal with Sony in the early 90s....they associated their name with a major label, and in exchange, they got an advance, money to record/tour, as well as a $100,000s in promotion and advertising. It can be argued that PJ wouldn't have gotten where they are without Sony.
In a sense, Target acted as the band's record label by providing most of the promotion for the new album. Doing a deal with Target may be viewed as "selling out", but, IMHO, these days, it isn't that much different then signing to a major label.
Though they have obviously done ok financially, using all of their own money to record and promote an album is very risky these days. I was surprised to see them on a Target commercial, but as long as they continue to tour, I am not too bothered.
Someone once joked "I didn't sell-out, I bought-in!
I respect what you're posting, and agree on some points, but what a ridiculous thing to say. Every PJ album ad had massive Sony logos in them.
PJ: 2011-09-03 2011-09-04
What??
Its a joke between Adam and I...
LOL... u should've put j/k's after it ...
although sometimes that doesnt work...
Who are u heading to Melb with?