A reason to fight, and a reason to stand your ground
Comments
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Well played.Jason P wrote:
... Also, Dude, chinaman is not the preferred nomenclature. Asian-American, please.Byrnzie wrote:
I wonder what the next one will be? Black people? Chinamen? The Teletubbies?Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V0 -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ress-islam
The anti-Muslim fearmongering we can't see
Peter King's hearings are tainted with prejudice, but far more insidious is the Islamophobic 'training' public servants receive
Tarso Ramos
guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 9 March 2011
A generation ago, irresponsible pundits inflamed anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sentiment, claiming that the election of then Senator John F Kennedy to the presidency would put the White House under the control of Rome. Today, where Muslims are concerned, it seems there's no claim too absurd, no charge too baseless to command the full attention of certain public officials and even the investigatory powers of Congress. Representative Peter King should know better.
We can expect a litany of ominous claims about Muslims during House homeland security Committee hearings on domestic Islamic radicalisation scheduled for this week. Representative King (Republican, New York) chairs that committee and has singled out Muslims as the source of potential terrorism on our shores. We were most recently exposed to a sustained public airing of wild-eyed Islamophobic storylines during the controversy over a proposed Islamic centre for lower Manhattan. Seemingly moderate American Muslims were said to be secretly plotting to replace the US constitution with Sharia law. Civil rights organisations were portrayed as front organisations for violent foreign "jihadi" groups. Islam was revealed to be an inherently violent, even terroristic religion. Such slanders and conspiracy theories demonise Muslims and Islam. They would be laughable were they not so ubiquitous, and therefore dangerous.
Hysterical Islamophobic rhetoric casts suspicion on all Muslims and amounts to fearmongering, plain and simple. It deserves to be condemned, not dignified with congressional hearings. Unfortunately, Representative King has invited witnesses with records of making outrageous claims about Muslims, such as Walid Shoebat. Shoebat asserts that "Islam is of Satan".
As poisoned as our public discourse has become where Islam is concerned, at least the King hearings, like the Manhattan community centre debate, will take place in public view, where there is an opportunity to refute baseless charges and rebuke those who would characterise Muslims as the enemy within. Certainly, the mob-like crowds jeering and vilifying Muslims at New York street demonstrations should give us all pause. But we should perhaps be even more alarmed at the ongoing – and, until now, largely unknown – promotion of these same Islamophobic messages to law enforcement, intelligence personnel and other public servants charged with our national security and public safety.
In the new report "Manufacturing the Muslim Menace: Private Firms, Public Servants, and the Threat to Rights and Security", Political Research Associates' Thomas Cincotta raises serious concerns that trainers associated with private counterterrorism firms – including Walid Shoebat – propagate many of these very same conspiracy theories and malicious myths about Islam at conferences of law enforcement and intelligence personnel. Two of the firms profiled in the PRA report claim to have trained a combined 130,000 people working in security and law enforcement.
Even worse, systematic government failure to regulate content in nationwide counter-terrorism training and lax reporting requirements in federal counter-terrorism grant programmes facilitate the use of public dollars for trainings that demonise Muslims and contradict official national security policy. In light of these findings, Representative King's forthcoming hearings may be just the tip of the iceberg of public involvement in the unjust demonisation of Muslims and Islam.
Since Congressman King and the House homeland security committee appear to be complicit in the problem they should be investigating, PRA calls upon the US Senate, department of homeland security and justice department to investigate and eliminate Islamophobia from counter-terrorism training. Our democracy requires it.0 -
Soulfire, I'd like to applaud you for starting this thread. Seeing the beliefs and opinions of many people on this forum, I'd say it was a brave move indeed. As you have pointed out, there is a problem (at least in America that I'm aware of) with what I call "tolerance for intolerance." If you push tolerance to the extreme, it becomes and absurdly vicious circle. For example, many in the "tolerant" crowd champion gay rights. However, they will also champion the rights of Muslims to their beliefs and religious practices. Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile. It's as if their brains can't process it, so it crashes like a computer with a virus, and all they can do is fling words like "racist" and "bigot."
It reminds me of a headline I saw on The Onion once:
"ACLU defends Nazi group's right to burn down ACLU headquarters"
It's so insane, it really is humorous. Thanks again for speaking the TRUTH, no matter how "offensive" or "politically incorrect" it may be. The truth is the truth, and far too many people choose to put their heads in the sand.0 -
bennett13 wrote:Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile.
Hmm, last time I checked, America is not an Islamic state. So how would the mind of someone championing for freedom of religion and the right of the pursuit of happiness be blown? No one in America is being executed because they are gay.32 shows and counting...0 -
bennett13 wrote:Soulfire, I'd like to applaud you for starting this thread. Seeing the beliefs and opinions of many people on this forum, I'd say it was a brave move indeed. As you have pointed out, there is a problem (at least in America that I'm aware of) with what I call "tolerance for intolerance." If you push tolerance to the extreme, it becomes and absurdly vicious circle. For example, many in the "tolerant" crowd champion gay rights. However, they will also champion the rights of Muslims to their beliefs and religious practices. Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile. It's as if their brains can't process it, so it crashes like a computer with a virus, and all they can do is fling words like "racist" and "bigot."
It reminds me of a headline I saw on The Onion once:
"ACLU defends Nazi group's right to burn down ACLU headquarters"
It's so insane, it really is humorous. Thanks again for speaking the TRUTH, no matter how "offensive" or "politically incorrect" it may be. The truth is the truth, and far too many people choose to put their heads in the sand.
Except the OP isn't talking about what goes on within Muslim nations. He's talking about a ridiculous fantasy that America is under threat from Muslims, and the U.S is in danger of becoming a state under Sharia law. There's nothing truthful in that. It's complete nonsense.0 -
Soulfire42 wrote:I'm going to post a link to something extremely disturbing and without apologies. If you click on it, consider yourself forewarned. The video is horrific, brutal, and contains the killing of humans by muslims in the name Allah, supposedly for adultery. I consider videos like this to be truths we must be aware of and must hold in check with pleas of infinite tolerance. There are things which deserve no tolerance and which have no excuse. We live in a day and age where it is no longer as easy to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we simply didn't know. We also live in a world where the people casting such stones are also claiming to be the victims and that they deserve special treatments and protections. It's time we call a spade a spade.
One final warning... This link contains the stoning of people and murders by muslims in the name of their god.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9eb_1293414372
I am not trying to hatemonger or anything of the sort. But tolerance, multiculturalism and other seemingly good things must have limitations and we must not once more turn a blind eye to atrocity as it spreads tentacles as it once did in places like nazi Germany. We must be vigilant and understand that there IS a spreading influence of Islam and pushes for barbaric laws across the world. Barbarism is not limited to Islam, and I make no such claim. But nonetheless, the claim that Islam is purely a religion of peace while people carry out the murder of others under the decree of religious rulers is just absurd. There is something we must be aware of going on and something we must be willing to fight before it wins by default as we sleep. We should have a firm understanding of what we would consider an enemy to be, regardless of the religion, skin color, uniform or whatever guise it may take. And when we see it, we have to be willing to stand firm and fight against it in one way or another. After I watch a video like this, I cannot help but pretend that I do not see an enemy which must be confronted and not appeased, welcomed or allowed to flourish. Again, this is not me saying all muslims are bad, but I'm going to refuse to allow the truth that not all muslims are bad to equate to a tolerance of this insanity. This is not the act of one madman on a rampage. This is organized and must be stopped.
I provide one additional link from a British fellow who I think provides some keen insight on the topic of islamization and our need to take a stand.
http://www.patcondell.com/
Yes killing like that is Barbaric, as barbaric as dropping bombs from up high, killing men, women, gay men, gay women, kids, puppies, trees and whatever else, barbaric no? What law is that based on? Law of ignorance?
Do western bombs differentiate between the guilty and the innocent? gay or straight? No, we just drop them and kill everyone. Barbaric? Which I'm sure you will agree that it is.
What are you really scared of? What do you really fear?
Also, I'm curious, what are your general thoughts on religion? All religions,0 -
posting nonsense when you're surrounded by people who like to argue using rationale is indeed a brave move.bennett13 wrote:Soulfire, I'd like to applaud you for starting this thread. Seeing the beliefs and opinions of many people on this forum, I'd say it was a brave move indeed. As you have pointed out, there is a problem (at least in America that I'm aware of) with what I call "tolerance for intolerance." If you push tolerance to the extreme, it becomes and absurdly vicious circle. For example, many in the "tolerant" crowd champion gay rights. However, they will also champion the rights of Muslims to their beliefs and religious practices. Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile. It's as if their brains can't process it, so it crashes like a computer with a virus, and all they can do is fling words like "racist" and "bigot."
It reminds me of a headline I saw on The Onion once:
"ACLU defends Nazi group's right to burn down ACLU headquarters"
It's so insane, it really is humorous. Thanks again for speaking the TRUTH, no matter how "offensive" or "politically incorrect" it may be. The truth is the truth, and far too many people choose to put their heads in the sand.
so I don't get it. can you not be for gay rights and Muslim rights at the same time? Does supporting the rights of Muslims to adhere to their beliefs and practices mean you're supporting the execution of gays? Is this the logic you're using? And for the record, the so-called countries who execute gay people jsut for being gay, although this is HIGHLY exaggerated by the fact that only the most extreme religious countries like Saudi Arabia practice such barbaric policies, it is important to note that the Saudi Arabian regime is kept in power with U.S. support and that in fact many (if not all) Muslims are against their crazy practices. But then again, all we have over here is an internal conflict people like you and Soulfire cannot reconcile. You have so much bigotry but it just doesn't work when you try to act rational and pretend you're using facts.0 -
___________ wrote:
posting nonsense when you're surrounded by people who like to argue using rationale is indeed a brave move.bennett13 wrote:Soulfire, I'd like to applaud you for starting this thread. Seeing the beliefs and opinions of many people on this forum, I'd say it was a brave move indeed. As you have pointed out, there is a problem (at least in America that I'm aware of) with what I call "tolerance for intolerance." If you push tolerance to the extreme, it becomes and absurdly vicious circle. For example, many in the "tolerant" crowd champion gay rights. However, they will also champion the rights of Muslims to their beliefs and religious practices. Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile. It's as if their brains can't process it, so it crashes like a computer with a virus, and all they can do is fling words like "racist" and "bigot."
It reminds me of a headline I saw on The Onion once:
"ACLU defends Nazi group's right to burn down ACLU headquarters"
It's so insane, it really is humorous. Thanks again for speaking the TRUTH, no matter how "offensive" or "politically incorrect" it may be. The truth is the truth, and far too many people choose to put their heads in the sand.
so I don't get it. can you not be for gay rights and Muslim rights at the same time? Does supporting the rights of Muslims to adhere to their beliefs and practices mean you're supporting the execution of gays? Is this the logic you're using? And for the record, the so-called countries who execute gay people jsut for being gay, although this is HIGHLY exaggerated by the fact that only the most extreme religious countries like Saudi Arabia practice such barbaric policies, it is important to note that the Saudi Arabian regime is kept in power with U.S. support and that in fact many (if not all) Muslims are against their crazy practices. But then again, all we have over here is an internal conflict people like you and Soulfire cannot reconcile. You have so much bigotry but it just doesn't work when you try to act rational and pretend you're using facts.
Check out this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_right ... _territory
It's true that only the most extreme muslim countries execute gays, but the others seem to be far from tolerant. Just do a quick comparison of the east vs the west on this map. Muslims are not exactly tolerant of gay rights, are they? I think something else that hasn't been addressed is the fact that the religion of Islam is not only theological, but highly political. To hard-core Muslims, the only government allowed by the Koran is the Muslim state, and therefore Sharia. Once again, we can debate these issues, but calling me a bigot simply because I point these things out is ignorant and short-sighted. Are there many moderate Muslims that don';t agree with executing gays or stoning people for adultery? Absoluteley! But we can't just ignore the fact that there is an extremely large faction of hard-line radical fundamentalist Muslims in this world, and that they thrive in the middle east. Once again, I'm sorry, but that's just a fact, and the video posted on the OP is just a small piece of evidence of this fact.
By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.0 -
Oh and I suppose the U.S. is so tolerant of gay rights, correct? We just fucking repealed don't ask, don't tell. Quit acting like we're ahead of the morality curve. There's no such thing as "even though we have problems, we still treat gay people better." You either treat people equally and non-discriminatory, or you don't.bennett13 wrote:___________ wrote:
posting nonsense when you're surrounded by people who like to argue using rationale is indeed a brave move.bennett13 wrote:Soulfire, I'd like to applaud you for starting this thread. Seeing the beliefs and opinions of many people on this forum, I'd say it was a brave move indeed. As you have pointed out, there is a problem (at least in America that I'm aware of) with what I call "tolerance for intolerance." If you push tolerance to the extreme, it becomes and absurdly vicious circle. For example, many in the "tolerant" crowd champion gay rights. However, they will also champion the rights of Muslims to their beliefs and religious practices. Then, when confronted with the fact that many (if not all) Muslim nations execute gays for no other reason than being gay, there's an internal conflict which they cannot reconcile. It's as if their brains can't process it, so it crashes like a computer with a virus, and all they can do is fling words like "racist" and "bigot."
It reminds me of a headline I saw on The Onion once:
"ACLU defends Nazi group's right to burn down ACLU headquarters"
It's so insane, it really is humorous. Thanks again for speaking the TRUTH, no matter how "offensive" or "politically incorrect" it may be. The truth is the truth, and far too many people choose to put their heads in the sand.
so I don't get it. can you not be for gay rights and Muslim rights at the same time? Does supporting the rights of Muslims to adhere to their beliefs and practices mean you're supporting the execution of gays? Is this the logic you're using? And for the record, the so-called countries who execute gay people jsut for being gay, although this is HIGHLY exaggerated by the fact that only the most extreme religious countries like Saudi Arabia practice such barbaric policies, it is important to note that the Saudi Arabian regime is kept in power with U.S. support and that in fact many (if not all) Muslims are against their crazy practices. But then again, all we have over here is an internal conflict people like you and Soulfire cannot reconcile. You have so much bigotry but it just doesn't work when you try to act rational and pretend you're using facts.
Check out this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_right ... _territory
It's true that only the most extreme muslim countries execute gays, but the others seem to be far from tolerant. Just do a quick comparison of the east vs the west on this map. Muslims are not exactly tolerant of gay rights, are they?
Quit repeating "this is just fact" without actually providing any evidence for your nonsense. And the fact that they're all based on just vague, general statements is further proof that you're just buying talking points from bigots. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Of course you haven't. It's absolutely fucking impossible to govern an entire state by the Qur'an. It's not a legal document in any way whatsoever. And you also make a general statement like "there is an extremely large faction of radicals" ... how large? Give me an estimate. You seem to think it's big, for what reason? And they thrive in the Middle East? Really? Where in the Middle East? You mind providing more details to your "facts" ??I think something else that hasn't been addressed is the fact that the religion of Islam is not only theological, but highly political. To hard-core Muslims, the only government allowed by the Koran is the Muslim state, and therefore Sharia. Once again, we can debate these issues, but calling me a bigot simply because I point these things out is ignorant and short-sighted. Are there many moderate Muslims that don';t agree with executing gays or stoning people for adultery? Absoluteley! But we can't just ignore the fact that there is an extremely large faction of hard-line radical fundamentalist Muslims in this world, and that they thrive in the middle east. Once again, I'm sorry, but that's just a fact, and the video posted on the OP is just a small piece of evidence of this fact.
WHAT?!By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.0 -
I'm gonna do this again cause I just learned how to enlarge my font:bennett13 wrote:By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.
WHAT?!0 -
___________ wrote:I'm gonna do this again cause I just learned how to enlarge my font:bennett13 wrote:By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.
WHAT?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... udi_Arabia0 -
posting nonsense when you're surrounded by people who like to argue using rationale is indeed a brave move.
so I don't get it. can you not be for gay rights and Muslim rights at the same time? Does supporting the rights of Muslims to adhere to their beliefs and practices mean you're supporting the execution of gays? Is this the logic you're using? And for the record, the so-called countries who execute gay people jsut for being gay, although this is HIGHLY exaggerated by the fact that only the most extreme religious countries like Saudi Arabia practice such barbaric policies, it is important to note that the Saudi Arabian regime is kept in power with U.S. support and that in fact many (if not all) Muslims are against their crazy practices. But then again, all we have over here is an internal conflict people like you and Soulfire cannot reconcile. You have so much bigotry but it just doesn't work when you try to act rational and pretend you're using facts.[/quote]
Check out this map:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_right ... _territory
It's true that only the most extreme muslim countries execute gays, but the others seem to be far from tolerant. Just do a quick comparison of the east vs the west on this map. Muslims are not exactly tolerant of gay rights, are they?[/quote]
Oh and I suppose the U.S. is so tolerant of gay rights, correct? We just fucking repealed don't ask, don't tell. Quit acting like we're ahead of the morality curve. There's no such thing as "even though we have problems, we still treat gay people better." You either treat people equally and non-discriminatory, or you don't.
Quit repeating "this is just fact" without actually providing any evidence for your nonsense. And the fact that they're all based on just vague, general statements is further proof that you're just buying talking points from bigots. Have you ever read the Qur'an? Of course you haven't. It's absolutely fucking impossible to govern an entire state by the Qur'an. It's not a legal document in any way whatsoever. And you also make a general statement like "there is an extremely large faction of radicals" ... how large? Give me an estimate. You seem to think it's big, for what reason? And they thrive in the Middle East? Really? Where in the Middle East? You mind providing more details to your "facts" ??I think something else that hasn't been addressed is the fact that the religion of Islam is not only theological, but highly political. To hard-core Muslims, the only government allowed by the Koran is the Muslim state, and therefore Sharia. Once again, we can debate these issues, but calling me a bigot simply because I point these things out is ignorant and short-sighted. Are there many moderate Muslims that don';t agree with executing gays or stoning people for adultery? Absoluteley! But we can't just ignore the fact that there is an extremely large faction of hard-line radical fundamentalist Muslims in this world, and that they thrive in the middle east. Once again, I'm sorry, but that's just a fact, and the video posted on the OP is just a small piece of evidence of this fact.
WHAT?![/quote]By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.
As much as you'd like to believe that I'm just some ignorant redneck typing in my trailer, I regret to inform you that that is not the case. And as much as you'd like to assume that I haven't read the Koran, I actually have. I'm not making this stuff up and I don't lift my points from right-wing talking heads. Many Muslims believe in the theocracy of the Islamic state, and one of the main teachings of Islam has to do with submission: submission to the will of Allah, submission to the Islamic State that Muhammed established (and many Muslims wish to return), and submission to Sharia, which governs that Islamic state. The Koran is not a legal document? Of course it is, just as many other sacred texts are also legal documents. The Koran contains Islamic law just as the Old Testament contains Jewish law. You should really read this book by Taqiuddin al-Nabhani. It is a chilling account of the history of the Islamic state and Sharia (and written from a Muslim perspective, no less!). The book in its entirety can be found here:
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/PDF/EN/en ... cState.pdf0 -
__________, Most radicals are trained in Yemen. How can it be hard to believe Radical Muslims are in the U.S.A after Fort Hood, or 9/11. This man knows about it first hand
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/us/17convert.html“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln0 -
i thought most radicals are trained in iraq and afghanistan.... isn't that why we went in there in the first place? since, you know, saddam was responsible for 9/11, right?aerial wrote:__________, Most radicals are trained in Yemen. How can it be hard to believe Radical Muslims are in the U.S.A after Fort Hood, or 9/11. This man knows about it first hand
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/17/us/17convert.html
for those of you that can't tell, i was being completely sarcastic...."You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."0 -
Since so many radical muslims are in the US, I figure it's time to start using drones and dropping bombs all over America.0
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brandon10 wrote:Since so many radical muslims are in the US, I figure it's time to start using drones and dropping bombs all over America.
Thanks for the thoughtful commentary.Bristow, VA (5/13/10)0 -
Electric_Delta wrote:brandon10 wrote:Since so many radical muslims are in the US, I figure it's time to start using drones and dropping bombs all over America.
Thanks for the thoughtful commentary.
We'll start by dropping bombs on the muslims that live near you.
0 -
brandon10 wrote:Electric_Delta wrote:brandon10 wrote:Since so many radical muslims are in the US, I figure it's time to start using drones and dropping bombs all over America.
Thanks for the thoughtful commentary.
We'll start by dropping bombs on the muslims that live near you.
Nice.Bristow, VA (5/13/10)0 -
The withdrawal of military is hardly what shocked me. It was you saying Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally when it is in fact the strongest Arab ally for the U.S. In fact, the U.S. just fucking sold them $60 Billion worth of military equipment and weapons a few months ago! This notwithstanding sharing of intelligence, etc etc etc. I mean, what you said was so nonsensical and shows that you lack ANY knowledge regarding Middle East history or politics or religion or ANYTHING in this subject.bennett13 wrote:___________ wrote:I'm gonna do this again cause I just learned how to enlarge my font:bennett13 wrote:By the way, Saudi Arabia is no longer an ally to the U.S. (even if Obama did bow to their king :roll: ). The U.S. closed all of their bases in Saudi Arabia quite some time ago, and the relationship between the two countries has been quite strained ever since 9-11.
WHAT?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... udi_Arabia
Go read the Wikileaks cables dammit!0
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