I'm going to post a link to something extremely disturbing and without apologies. If you click on it, consider yourself forewarned. The video is horrific, brutal, and contains the killing of humans by muslims in the name Allah, supposedly for adultery. I consider videos like this to be truths we must be aware of and must hold in check with pleas of infinite tolerance. There are things which deserve no tolerance and which have no excuse. We live in a day and age where it is no longer as easy to stick our heads in the sand and pretend we simply didn't know. We also live in a world where the people casting such stones are also claiming to be the victims and that they deserve special treatments and protections. It's time we call a spade a spade.
I am not trying to hatemonger or anything of the sort. But tolerance, multiculturalism and other seemingly good things must have limitations and we must not once more turn a blind eye to atrocity as it spreads tentacles as it once did in places like nazi Germany. We must be vigilant and understand that there IS a spreading influence of Islam and pushes for barbaric laws across the world. Barbarism is not limited to Islam, and I make no such claim. But nonetheless, the claim that Islam is purely a religion of peace while people carry out the murder of others under the decree of religious rulers is just absurd. There is something we must be aware of going on and something we must be willing to fight before it wins by default as we sleep. We should have a firm understanding of what we would consider an enemy to be, regardless of the religion, skin color, uniform or whatever guise it may take. And when we see it, we have to be willing to stand firm and fight against it in one way or another. After I watch a video like this, I cannot help but pretend that I do not see an enemy which must be confronted and not appeased, welcomed or allowed to flourish. Again, this is not me saying all muslims are bad, but I'm going to refuse to allow the truth that not all muslims are bad to equate to a tolerance of this insanity. This is not the act of one madman on a rampage. This is organized and must be stopped.
I provide one additional link from a British fellow who I think provides some keen insight on the topic of islamization and our need to take a stand.
God almighty, there it is again - what is the fascination with Nazi Germany over there in the US? We in Europe have moved on to a point where we don't need to bring it up everytime something we don't agree with happens, I just really don't get it at all.
Gun Control - Nazi Germany
Obama - Nazi Germany
Muslims - Nazi Germany
When I want to discuss Chinese or American executions, I'll either start a thread on them or look for an existing one. Try sticking to one topic at a time if any results are desired in conversation via the internet. Our exchange will be brief in the larger scheme of things, so focus is appropriate rather than throwing out every problem of the world and expecting a resolution or agreement in a forum thread.
If you really think that American law is on par with Islamic shari law in terms of barbarism, start a topic on it. I think most would find it laughable, but you're free to do so....I ask that you stay on topic which is Islam and sharia law and its potential for barbarism and growing influence around the world. If you don't want to discuss that and want to talk about Westboro, American executions, my racism or bigotry... start a new thread on such a topic and type away. Getting me to agree that something like Wesboro needs to be fought against has nothing to do with addressing the topic at hand in THIS thread.
You profess to be concerned about people being executed by Muslims, in Muslim countries, according to Muslim law, and yet you claim I'm changing the topic when I ask why you're not equally outspoken and opposed to executions in your own country. The fact that you choose to focus on just one religion - which conveniently happens to be predominant outside of the U.S - and use the subject of executions to berate that religion and it's millions of followers, is proof that you're not serious. If you really cared about people being executed then you'd care about all people being executed, not just Muslims. You're simply using the subject of executions as a pretext to insult and villify Islam and it's followers.
Let me try to rephrase some things in some more simplistic terms to hopefully show how stupid it is trying to label me the problem and of being a hatemonger, racist or bigot.
The premise is that there are current members of the Islamic faith performing barbaric acts and working to expand the reach of barbaric sharia laws. I have stated that we must identify this enemy and work to stand our ground and fight against it in a variety of manners. This is necessary to support nearly universally agreed upon norms of humanity and human rights.
I show indisputable evidence of at least hundreds of Islamic faith members stoning individuals to death. I provide evidence and links to entire investigative reports about the largest mosque in England serving as a platform to expand the teaching and reach of “radical” Islamic views. I make the claim that we must be wary and vigilant against permitting this to expand uncontested. I provide evidence that there is an organized effort to expand the reach of sharia law and its geographical spread.
I also make the claim that the ideology of the Islamic faith often leads to the oppression of women in society and provide factual claims that practitioners of the muslim faith migrating to European nations has resulted in dramatic increases of crimes against women. I again make the claim that we should be wary and vigilant of such an ideology. I warn that excessive tolerance, apathy and inaction foster a permissive environment which makes such abuses and crimes against humanity much more likely to continue to happen and spread.
I see it as further proof of my point that by illustrating this information, providing visual and written proof and stating that we should stand united against such barbarism, I am viewed by many seeking to be perceived as politically correct, to be the one who is the actual threat. They want me viewed as the racist, the bigot and the hatemonger for pointing out crimes against humanity being performed by participants of the Islamic faith which seem to rather directly stem from the ideology involved. The ideology involves unchallengeable decrees from religious leaders, primitive rule systems that exact abhorrent violence (stonings, beheadings, limb amputations, etc.) upon people who do not typically receive anything resembling a fair trial. They want the evidence presented to be seemingly ignored and to list other crimes or abuses by other groups as reasons to ignore those which are being presented factually here.
My point is that we cannot permit political correctness, tolerance, desire for multiculturalism or diversity to become the ripe soil for barbaric ideologies and actions to take root and spread. I am just as firm a believer that the muslim victims being stoned to death, beheaded, or otherwise mutilated deserve defense and a united front of people saying that enough is enough as I believe any other group is. I refuse to sit idle and and not oppose this barbarism and ideology because it IS racist, it IS bigoted, it IS chauvinistic, it IS dangerous, it DOES lead to abhorrent actions done by large crowds of participants. It does lead to violence against women. There are groups organized with the desire to spread sharia law and to establish Islamic law far beyond its current reach. If you don’t believe this, then you didn’t look into much of what I have shared.
So if you want to continue to call me a racist or a bigot or whatever for being willing to take a stand against this insanity, I really don’t care. Label me that all you want. In my opinion, you end up defending the indefensible. Do you really want to be on the side of the people stoning people to death for supposed adultery, and do you really want to support beheadings as law? Do you really think I’m a bigot or a racist for saying we ought not stand by and be permissive? I don’t care what color their skin is. I don’t care where they live. Wrong is wrong. If you want to call me “righteous” for believing it is necessary to fight this insanity, feel free.
People on this board get all up in arms over things like the West Memphis 3 and perhaps rightfully so. However, as an issue of importance or an egregious abuse of law and humanity, I feel it pales in comparison to some of the things I have presented and there is no legitimate way of the WM3 issue expanding and causing further bloodshed and hardships for many people. The exact opposite is true of the issues I am bringing up in this thread. Factually, people are being stoned to death. Factually, sexual violence against women is on the rise when participants of this faith migrate to several European nations. Factually, there is an organized effort with financial backing to expand the reach and influence of sharia law throughout the world. How am I wrong for wanting to combat that? Is that the only issue in the world I want to combat? Nope, but it’s the issue this particular thread is about.
If my desire to combat this makes you want to call me a racist, a bigot and a hatemonger, so be it. Guess you’ll just also have to ignore the fact that I support a Palestinian state, think that muslims are often unfairly mistreated, advocate working hard toward ending racism, support women’s rights issues, despise fox news, etc, etc, etc. But if you want to keep trying to force me into your more comfortable stereotypes to ignore the information I am presenting, there’s not much I can do about it.
To counter any arguments I have made, I’ve seen nothing but people ignoring the information presented and instead bringing up other atrocities or problems that are not directly related to this topic. I grant that other atrocities and bad groups exist. That does nothing to counter any argument I am making. People may not want to believe there are organized and financed groups working to spread sharia law and similar insanity to the stoning video I presented. But I have given proof (if you watch the investigative reports or choose to do your own research) that it exists. Why wouldn’t we want to take a stand against that and how does wanting to take a stand against it make one a racist or a bigot?
I see you as someone that wants freedom for everyone, yet most on here can not see it. It's okay to insult and villify anyone other than Islam and it's followers here on the MT. A Muslim will blow up a public dinner and everyone here finds a way to blame someone else. The favorite is, blame an American!
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
so what are you gonna do about it since you are so keen on making a stand
Well, I think it is obvious that as initial steps I'm continuing my own research and study into the matter and working to make other people aware of it, here and elsewhere. I'm certainly not going, "Hmm... I see a potentially major problem and I'm going to do absolutely nothing." Can I do something about every problem in the world? Nope. Am I trying to do some things to combat some problems and looking for egregious abuses to throw my voice against? Yep.
Byrnzie, thanks for the mocking good luck wish. I have no belief that my lone voice is going to put a stop to religious laws which cannot be challenged, but I'm nonetheless going to add it to the cacophony of voices that are speaking out. I'm pretty aware that I'm unlikely to get you to evaluate the issue I have raised in any detail because you insist that I must talk about American executions instead of stay focused on one topic that this thread was created to discuss instead. I'll be doing well if I get people to look at any evidence I have posted on even one subject, let alone if I started branching off toward every execution or abhorrent act in the world. If you don't like a thread trying to stay focused on one topic, you must have a strong dislike for forum moderators in the electronic world or academic forums. There is a significant value to addressing one topic at a time rather than trying to tackle all the wrongs of the world and analysing nothing with any depth instead. I do claim to be concerned about muslims in muslim countries being executed by muslim laws which promote barbarism. You ask why I am not equally outspoken and opposed to executions in my own country. I state that I'm trying to discuss one topic at a time not to silence your questioning, but to stay on topic. I am not pro-death penalty anywhere, but I'm also not the most die-hard against it universally. I also believe people have a right to defend themselves with lethal force in some circumstances. But again, this does nothing to further prove, deny or relate to my premise, evidence or critique of what this thread is about. What I think about American, Chinese or other executions is simply not relevant to this particular thread and if I go posting critiques and evidence about the death penalty in general, I dilute any thorough discourse or investigation about the particular topic this thread was created to work on. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I'll not be discussing American or other criminal systems in this topic because it isn't the topic of the thread. How can I make that any more clear? Create a new thread on a topic and I may join in. You have no idea how outspoken or not I am about the death penalty in my own country, but it is also not relevant to the topic being addressed here, which is islamic sharia law and culture. Are you really trying to say that in order to discuss islamic sharia law it may only be discussed while at the same time discussing American executions? That's just simply not true. Trying to stay on topic is not something I should feel shame for.
This thread, I feel, shows how people with an earnest and often understandable desire for political correctness, promotion of multiculturalism and religious tolerance can end up defending or ignoring rather horrific actions and instead try to shift the debate and/or analysis to unreleated or loosely related topics instead of confronting the facts. I believe it also has shown how a person coming forward with both evidence and questions about things like sharia law can quickly become the subject of ridicule and abuse for daring to say they challenge the barbarism they see before their very eyes and fear its potential growth.
I see you as someone that wants freedom for everyone, yet most on here can not see it. It's okay to insult and villify anyone other than Islam and it's followers here on the MT. A Muslim will blow up a public dinner and everyone here finds a way to blame someone else. The favorite is, blame an American!
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Thank you, Ms. Coulter, for missing the point all together... as we pretty much expected you would.
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The point is... Death Penalty is barbaric. Would everyone be happy if we exported sodium thiopental to iran so they can deliver lethal injections to adultrers? Because it seems to me like it is horrible to stone someone to death or chop off their heads... but, okey dokey to give them a leathal dose.
To me... the Death Penalty is barbaric... regardless of how it is adminstered.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I see you as someone that wants freedom for everyone, yet most on here can not see it. It's okay to insult and villify anyone other than Islam and it's followers here on the MT. A Muslim will blow up a public dinner and everyone here finds a way to blame someone else. The favorite is, blame an American!
...
Thank you, Ms. Coulter, for missing the point all together... as we pretty much expected you would.
...
The point is... Death Penalty is barbaric. Would everyone be happy if we exported sodium thiopental to iran so they can deliver lethal injections to adultrers? Because it seems to me like it is horrible to stone someone to death or chop off their heads... but, okey dokey to give them a leathal dose.
To me... the Death Penalty is barbaric... regardless of how it is adminstered.
Your missing the point. America does not give out the death penalty for adultry.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
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Thank you, Ms. Coulter, for missing the point all together... as we pretty much expected you would.
...
The point is... Death Penalty is barbaric. Would everyone be happy if we exported sodium thiopental to iran so they can deliver lethal injections to adultrers? Because it seems to me like it is horrible to stone someone to death or chop off their heads... but, okey dokey to give them a leathal dose.
To me... the Death Penalty is barbaric... regardless of how it is adminstered.
Your missing the point. America does not give out the death penalty for adultry.
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But, the U.S. DOES have a Death Penalty, right? That is the point.
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Besides, who are you to say what laws they should and should not obey? Isn't Adultery one of the Ten Commandments? Doesn't the Bible say that the penalty for adultery is Death?
Just because you believe the Bible and the Ten Commandments are just a bunch of bullshit, doesn't mean they have to listen to you.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Byrnzie, thanks for the mocking good luck wish. I have no belief that my lone voice is going to put a stop to religious laws which cannot be challenged, but I'm nonetheless going to add it to the cacophony of voices that are speaking out. I'm pretty aware that I'm unlikely to get you to evaluate the issue I have raised in any detail because you insist that I must talk about American executions instead of stay focused on one topic that this thread was created to discuss instead. I'll be doing well if I get people to look at any evidence I have posted on even one subject, let alone if I started branching off toward every execution or abhorrent act in the world. If you don't like a thread trying to stay focused on one topic, you must have a strong dislike for forum moderators in the electronic world or academic forums. There is a significant value to addressing one topic at a time rather than trying to tackle all the wrongs of the world and analysing nothing with any depth instead. I do claim to be concerned about muslims in muslim countries being executed by muslim laws which promote barbarism. You ask why I am not equally outspoken and opposed to executions in my own country. I state that I'm trying to discuss one topic at a time not to silence your questioning, but to stay on topic. I am not pro-death penalty anywhere, but I'm also not the most die-hard against it universally. I also believe people have a right to defend themselves with lethal force in some circumstances. But again, this does nothing to further prove, deny or relate to my premise, evidence or critique of what this thread is about. What I think about American, Chinese or other executions is simply not relevant to this particular thread and if I go posting critiques and evidence about the death penalty in general, I dilute any thorough discourse or investigation about the particular topic this thread was created to work on. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I'll not be discussing American or other criminal systems in this topic because it isn't the topic of the thread. How can I make that any more clear? Create a new thread on a topic and I may join in. You have no idea how outspoken or not I am about the death penalty in my own country, but it is also not relevant to the topic being addressed here, which is islamic sharia law and culture. Are you really trying to say that in order to discuss islamic sharia law it may only be discussed while at the same time discussing American executions? That's just simply not true. Trying to stay on topic is not something I should feel shame for.
Have you ever heard of something called 'perspective'? You come on here criticizing Islam and executions carried out under Sharia law, yet you think it's irrelevant to look at the situation right under your nose, in your own backyard.
Point is, you have no moral highground from which to single out Muslim executions for criticism whilst the same thing takes place everyday in your own country. If you have a problem with executions and expect to be taken seriously then you should be against executions in all countries and cultures.
Why have you singled out Muslims?
And what is it about Sharia law that you have such a problem with? Are you afraid America is about to become a Sharia state and that you'll be forced to wear a veil?
Why aren't you equally afraid of the U.S becoming a fundamentalist Christian state where masturbation is considered a sin, and where the teaching of evolution is banned in your schools?
[Have you ever heard of something called 'perspective'? You come on here criticizing Islam and executions carried out under Sharia law, yet you think it's irrelevant to look at the situation right under your nose, in your own backyard.
Point is, you have no moral highground from which to single out Muslim executions for criticism whilst the same thing takes place everyday in your own country. If you have a problem with executions and expect to be taken seriously then you should be against executions in all countries and cultures.
Why have you singled out Muslims?
And what is it about Sharia law that you have such a problem with? Are you afraid America is about to become a Sharia state and that you'll be forced to wear a veil?
Why aren't you equally afraid of the U.S becoming a fundamentalist Christian state where masturbation is considered a sin, and where the teaching of evolution is banned in your schools?
Alright, it's clear you insist on discussing America and I've tried to stick to the point. So I'm going to step out of the discussion with you because I see it as fruitless in either direction. I've not said it is irrelevant to look at executions in America. I've said that if you want to discuss that, start a focused thread on it and I'll likely join in (though I would likely not waste my time at this point if you were the creator of such a thread). I believe it was you or at least another person in this thread who argued that living in a country does not make one responsible for all the crimes of that nation. I accept that claim and I'm not guilty for executions in America. And who says I'm not concerned about the US becoming a fundamentalist Christian state? Perhaps that is one of many concerns by which I place my votes. Again though, that is not the topic of this thread despite your wishes to turn this into a Christian/American discussion instead of what it was started as. When you can post the video of the Christians stoning members of their culture to death, or when Westboro has killed somebody or has any real power, or when America begins executing people for adultery, or when Christians start espousing "eye for an eye" law in organized and financed fashions across the globe, then maybe it would be worth derailing the topic of the thread to focus on. This is not intended as a defense of Christianity or America, it's just again restating that you're off the point at hand in the thread. Since you will not stick to the topic of the thread and evaluate it on its own merits or lack thereof, there's really no point in further discussion between the two of us. You cannot seem to grasp that topics can be selected and discussed without making jumps to unrelated or loosely related topics. You are going to cling to muslims being singled out and forbid focused discussion on the topic presented despite invitiations for you to start your own threads on any topic you personally want to discuss. I had a topi I wanted to discuss that was focused and asked you to respect that topic. I made the thread. You are free to make your own and discuss anything of your liking. Instead, you want to force me to change from the topic I started to discuss your topic of America and Christianity, even though I have never tried to present a defense or detailed analysis of them throughout this thread and have repeatedly stated that was not my interest in this thread. Don't expect further discussion from me with you on this thread because you will not respect the topic of the thread and don't seem to want to make your own to discuss the topic that appears to be the only thing of interest to you.
"The leader of Jordan's powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States.
Hammam Saeed's comments were made at a protest outside the Egyptian Embassy in Amman, inspired by massive rallies in neighbouring Egypt demanding the downfall of the country's longtime president, Hosni Mubarak."
Now have a look at the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood:
The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".
So I again post evidence and links of established muslim groups seeking to instill law based solely upon an unquestionable religious book and show their desire to spread. As we should know, the holy book in question does provide for extremely barbaric actions to be taken in the name of "law" and there is obviously a clear and stated desire to spread. Should we still keep our head in the sand? Should we still not acknowledge there being adequate cause to be wary, vigilant and defensive to combat this insanity? I argue that to continue to rally under the banner of tolerance, political correctness and multiculturalism when faced with this is pure folly. There are times for tolerance, political correctness and multiculturalism. This threat is not such a time. I don't care which skin color, religion or group is seeking to do this. I would take a stand against any group(s) with such an aim.
Here are some quotations from the Quran to consider being implemented if these sorts of groups flourish and are not opposed, and I freely admit that I am in the early process of learning more and more about the Quran and direct sharia law:
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." Quran 051.056
Believers in Allah are the best people in the world : "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah." Quran 003.110
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Quran 009.029
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him;" Quran 003.085
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Women appear to be worth half a muslim man and if a legal system is based on the holy works being advocated by such groups, see where women's rights should anticipate heading:
"Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women" Quran 002.282
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great." Quran 004.034
"And say to the believing women that they should (...) not display their beauty and ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex" Quran 024.031
Now one person had questioned why I would relate any of this as being similar to nazi Germany. Well, as I see it... we have organized groups believing they are superior to others with the right to slaughter them for not being the same as them. One is based on racial superiority and another is based primarily on religious superiority. Both seem to have had or are having many people turn a blind eye, and I'm hoping that people wake up sooner and confront the insanity this time. Sure there are differences, but I think that reading this stuff and seeing that there are people who want it to be the basis of law and culture should be sending alarm bells ringing.
The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".
And...so...what? This is their culture and the way they choose to live.
As we should know, the holy book in question does provide for extremely barbaric actions to be taken in the name of "law" and there is obviously a clear and stated desire to spread.
Does it? Where's your proof?
And I thought you only had a problem with Sharia law? Looks like you have a problem with all of Islam.
Here are some quotations from the Quran to consider being implemented if these sorts of groups flourish and are not opposed, and I freely admit that I am in the early process of learning more and more about the Quran and direct sharia law:
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." Quran 051.056
Believers in Allah are the best people in the world : "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah." Quran 003.110
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Quran 009.029
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him;" Quran 003.085
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Women appear to be worth half a muslim man and if a legal system is based on the holy works being advocated by such groups, see where women's rights should anticipate heading:
"Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women" Quran 002.282
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great." Quran 004.034
"And say to the believing women that they should (...) not display their beauty and ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex" Quran 024.031
Now one person had questioned why I would relate any of this as being similar to nazi Germany. Well, as I see it... we have organized groups believing they are superior to others with the right to slaughter them for not being the same as them. One is based on racial superiority and another is based primarily on religious superiority. Both seem to have had or are having many people turn a blind eye, and I'm hoping that people wake up sooner and confront the insanity this time. Sure there are differences, but I think that reading this stuff and seeing that there are people who want it to be the basis of law and culture should be sending alarm bells ringing.
Looks like you're trying really hard to find reasons to criticize and villfy Islam. Except nothing you've posted here carries any weight.
Why are you not equally outraged by followers of Judaism, or Christianity who see themselves as the chosen people, and the followers of the only true God, respectively?
To respond with how I think we should defend ourselves. Well, there are plentiful ways I believe we need to. Let me first start by writing just a few of the things I feel we should be afraid of. We should be afraid of pushes to expand islamic laws throughout the world. Laws which make it acceptable to endorse a level of barbarism as evidenced by the footage presented in this thread. Countries across the world are facing growing pressure to accept, promote and even grant special status to islamic culture and insitutions. Investigations into the largest mosque in England discovered that despite having already been found to have people preaching hatred, separation and sharia law at the mosque and in private sessions directly affiliated with the mosque, when the mosque was investigated later they found the same activity. They were still selling videos full of hatred and Saudi trained women were still inviting women to special private sessions to teach sharia law and hatred of the west. We should be afraid of losing our ability to draw a cartoon and not have to worry about being murdered on the street like we have witnessed. We should be afraid of losing our ability to write a book which is perceived as critical of islam and then having states issue death threats upon us as did Salman Rushdie. We should be fearful of a religion which fosters fanatics who fly aircraft into our major cities and structures in the name of the God. We should be fearful of a religion being used to pass gross legislation which depletes our civil liberties like has been done with the Patriot Act. I could go on and on citing noteworthy things which we should be wary of and have our defenses raised against.
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But, the U.S. DOES have a Death Penalty, right? That is the point.
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Besides, who are you to say what laws they should and should not obey? Isn't Adultery one of the Ten Commandments? Doesn't the Bible say that the penalty for adultery is Death?
Just because you believe the Bible and the Ten Commandments are just a bunch of bullshit, doesn't mean they have to listen to you.
Dammit, I was trying to avoid this thread. Oh well.
One thing to consider Cosmo, the U.S. does not implement religious law. Separation of church and state, I do believe. Whether you are for or against the death penalty, at least the U.S. justice system does not rely on scripture to judge.
I have proven, with evidence, that there are multiple organized groups seeking to spread Islamic law and that these groups would base their system of law upon Islamic holy texts, which are not subject to challenge because they are viewed as the word of their god. I see no refutation of this, so I considerate it accepted by the participants of this thread. So the latest challenge (even though I said I’d choose not participate further in discussion with Byrnzie for remaining fixated on shifting the topic) is for me to show proof that there is text which would support barbaric acts within the Islamic holy texts. I accept the challenge. I further add and have already started illustrating, with evidence, that if people use Islamic holy texts as the basis of law, we should anticipate very negative repercussions. Some already shown have been deterioration of the commonly accepted equal status of women, an intolerance of religious freedom of anyone besides muslims, the stoning to death of humans for adultery, etc. These are things I have already shown proof of in this thread. So now I am challenged with providing proof that we should anticipate gross acts of barbarism and major steps backward in civil rights if law is based on Islamic texts.
Proof that we should anticipate the return of crucifixion and cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, exiles and “heavy punishment” which one could only assume could grant great leeway to enforcers who claim the authority of god on their side:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" Quran 005.033
Further evidence of barbarism to be expected from Islamic texts:
Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38
Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. 5:45
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16
Evidence that atheists and other nonbelievers should expect to be killed under such a system:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221
Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10
Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29
Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29
Nothing prevents non-muslims from believing in Islam. So it's their own fault when they are sent to their doom. 18:55
Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80
Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70
"We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136
The worst thing anyone can do is deny the revelations of Allah. Those who do so will be awared an evil doom. 6:157 (let’s just imagine how this one could be misused)
Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60
Evidence that Jews should be majorly concerned:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167
Evidence that Christians should be majorly concerned:
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Evidence that we should expect war from groups basing their beliefs and laws on Islamic texts:
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
If you die fighting for Allah, you'll be rewarded in heaven. 3:157
"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead."
(Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' regarding the 11 September 2001 attacks.) 3:169-171
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61
Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 45:7-8
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4
If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16
Sharia law states the following:
Adulterous couples are to be stoned to death
Prostitutes are to be hanged in public
Women in the company of men who are not blood relatives are to be executed
Rape victims should be punished
Women cannot vote or get elected
Husbands are permitted to beat their wives
Women cannot do anything outside the house without their father or husband’s consent
Women cannot get custody of their children
Women must wear the hijab outside of the house
Now if I have any facts wrong, please feel free correct me. I am honestly only interested in truthful information and rational discussion of it. But based on my studies to this point, I see no reason why I or other unbiased observers should not be alarmed to think there are organized groups planning to use islamic texts as the basis of society and its laws. It appears to me to establish frightening "precedents", can obviously be used to promote rampant violations of religious and civil liberties, can support barbaric punishments and is not subject to rational challenge because it is supposedly the word of god.
I am also having a hard time thinking we should not expect more and more scenes like the image below, which is of a Christian who was set on fire and had his wife raped because he was unwilling to convert to Islam. I don't care if this man would have been Jewish, Shinto or another Muslim... I see this as something to vehemently oppose the spread of. There does appear to be text and beliefs which support such atrocities as this:
And for the last time, Byrnzie. This is a thread on the discussion of ISLAM. Whether or not I or anyone else prove similar atrocities or something in other religions has no relevance in this study on ISLAM. Proving atrocities in another religion or country, etc. does nothing to change the validity of THIS argument. Either I am succeeding in proving, with evidence, that there are organized and financed groups seeking to expand dangerous and barbaric practices based on the Islamic faith or I am not. For instance, if I proved with evidence that zebras have stripes, proving that tigers also have stripes doesn't disprove that zebras have stripes! I believe I am quite convincigly demonstrating that there IS something we should be concerned about with regard to at least a portion of the Islamic faith and that we should do what is in our power to do to prevent its growth. have not made one single claim that there are not things wrong with other nations or religions too. It's an argument beside the point at hand.
Byrnzie, thanks for the mocking good luck wish. I have no belief that my lone voice is going to put a stop to religious laws which cannot be challenged, but I'm nonetheless going to add it to the cacophony of voices that are speaking out. I'm pretty aware that I'm unlikely to get you to evaluate the issue I have raised in any detail because you insist that I must talk about American executions instead of stay focused on one topic that this thread was created to discuss instead. I'll be doing well if I get people to look at any evidence I have posted on even one subject, let alone if I started branching off toward every execution or abhorrent act in the world. If you don't like a thread trying to stay focused on one topic, you must have a strong dislike for forum moderators in the electronic world or academic forums. There is a significant value to addressing one topic at a time rather than trying to tackle all the wrongs of the world and analysing nothing with any depth instead. I do claim to be concerned about muslims in muslim countries being executed by muslim laws which promote barbarism. You ask why I am not equally outspoken and opposed to executions in my own country. I state that I'm trying to discuss one topic at a time not to silence your questioning, but to stay on topic. I am not pro-death penalty anywhere, but I'm also not the most die-hard against it universally. I also believe people have a right to defend themselves with lethal force in some circumstances. But again, this does nothing to further prove, deny or relate to my premise, evidence or critique of what this thread is about. What I think about American, Chinese or other executions is simply not relevant to this particular thread and if I go posting critiques and evidence about the death penalty in general, I dilute any thorough discourse or investigation about the particular topic this thread was created to work on. I'm sorry if you disagree, but I'll not be discussing American or other criminal systems in this topic because it isn't the topic of the thread. How can I make that any more clear? Create a new thread on a topic and I may join in. You have no idea how outspoken or not I am about the death penalty in my own country, but it is also not relevant to the topic being addressed here, which is islamic sharia law and culture. Are you really trying to say that in order to discuss islamic sharia law it may only be discussed while at the same time discussing American executions? That's just simply not true. Trying to stay on topic is not something I should feel shame for.
Have you ever heard of something called 'perspective'? You come on here criticizing Islam and executions carried out under Sharia law, yet you think it's irrelevant to look at the situation right under your nose, in your own backyard.
Point is, you have no moral highground from which to single out Muslim executions for criticism whilst the same thing takes place everyday in your own country. If you have a problem with executions and expect to be taken seriously then you should be against executions in all countries and cultures.
Why have you singled out Muslims?
And what is it about Sharia law that you have such a problem with? Are you afraid America is about to become a Sharia state and that you'll be forced to wear a veil?
Why aren't you equally afraid of the U.S becoming a fundamentalist Christian state where masturbation is considered a sin, and where the teaching of evolution is banned in your schools?
That obviously won't happen. Muslims can pray on Madison Avenue, but Christians can't even put a nativity scene on their lawn with out the ACLU crying about it.
Proof that we should anticipate the return of crucifixion and cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, exiles and “heavy punishment” which one could only assume could grant great leeway to enforcers who claim the authority of god on their side:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" Quran 005.033
It doesn't say those on 'opposite sides'. It says those who wage war against Allah and his Messenger.
Evidence that atheists and other nonbelievers should expect to be killed under such a system:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221
Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10
Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29
Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29
Nothing prevents non-muslims from believing in Islam. So it's their own fault when they are sent to their doom. 18:55
Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80
Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70
"We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136
The worst thing anyone can do is deny the revelations of Allah. Those who do so will be awared an evil doom. 6:157 (let’s just imagine how this one could be misused)
Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60
Evidence that Jews should be majorly concerned:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167
Evidence that Christians should be majorly concerned:
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Evidence that we should expect war from groups basing their beliefs and laws on Islamic texts:
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
If you die fighting for Allah, you'll be rewarded in heaven. 3:157
"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead."
(Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' regarding the 11 September 2001 attacks.) 3:169-171
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61
Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 45:7-8
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4
If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16
Sharia law states the following:
Adulterous couples are to be stoned to death
Prostitutes are to be hanged in public
Women in the company of men who are not blood relatives are to be executed
Rape victims should be punished
Women cannot vote or get elected
Husbands are permitted to beat their wives
Women cannot do anything outside the house without their father or husband’s consent
Women cannot get custody of their children
Women must wear the hijab outside of the house
Now if I have any facts wrong, please feel free correct me. I am honestly only interested in truthful information and rational discussion of it. But based on my studies to this point, I see no reason why I or other unbiased observers should not be alarmed to think there are organized groups planning to use islamic texts as the basis of society and its laws. It appears to me to establish frightening "precedents", can obviously be used to promote rampant violations of religious and civil liberties, can support barbaric punishments and is not subject to rational challenge because it is supposedly the word of god.
When you say you've 'studied' Islam can you please elaborate? It's just that it looks to me like you've simply trawled the internet for whatever fits your bigoted rant against Islam.
And for the last time, Byrnzie. This is a thread on the discussion of ISLAM. Whether or not I or anyone else prove similar atrocities or something in other religions has no relevance in this study on ISLAM. Proving atrocities in another religion or country, etc. does nothing to change the validity of THIS argument. Either I am succeeding in proving, with evidence, that there are organized and financed groups seeking to expand dangerous and barbaric practices based on the Islamic faith or I am not. For instance, if I proved with evidence that zebras have stripes, proving that tigers also have stripes doesn't disprove that zebras have stripes! I believe I am quite convincigly demonstrating that there IS something we should be concerned about with regard to at least a portion of the Islamic faith and that we should do what is in our power to do to prevent its growth. have not made one single claim that there are not things wrong with other nations or religions too. It's an argument beside the point at hand.
It may be a thread aimed solely at attacking everything to do with Islam, but I won't play your game. And it's not beside the point to look at the bigger picture. You come from an imperialist nation that has 'In God We Trust' on all of it's paper money. All of your leaders feel compelled to flaunt their so-called 'Christianity' at every opportunity in order to insure they get voted into office. Whether you like it or not, you live in a so-called 'Christian' nation that is currently engaged in two foreign wars of occupation against Muslims, and yet you want us to believe that the Westen world is under threat from Muslims?
Sorry, but this is all just bigoted horseshit.
And seeing how you have so much time on your hands, try trawling the internet for quotes from the old Testament and I guarantee you can find just as many, if not more, than the bunch you just copied and pasted above.
...
But, the U.S. DOES have a Death Penalty, right? That is the point.
...
Besides, who are you to say what laws they should and should not obey? Isn't Adultery one of the Ten Commandments? Doesn't the Bible say that the penalty for adultery is Death?
Just because you believe the Bible and the Ten Commandments are just a bunch of bullshit, doesn't mean they have to listen to you.
Dammit, I was trying to avoid this thread. Oh well.
One thing to consider Cosmo, the U.S. does not implement religious law. Separation of church and state, I do believe. Whether you are for or against the death penalty, at least the U.S. justice system does not rely on scripture to judge.
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And I am GLAD we don't implement religious law... that we are NOT a theocracy... that the church does NOT have legislative powers over us... that we are NOT a nation that is bound to Christianity (or any other single religion). We get to choose how we worship... and NOT told how to worship. That is our right under the First Amendment.
...
But, who are WE to say how other countries run their shows? If Iran is a Theocracy... who are we to tell them how to rule and to enforce their laws... regardless of how barbaric we see them? How would we take to them, telling US how we should govern? I'll tell you.. we'd tell them to go fuck themselves... and rightly so.
...
I am against the Death Penalty... whether here or in Iran. Others are okay with Iran's Death Penalty... as long as they administer it the same way we do. Doesn't make sense to me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
I see you as someone that wants freedom for everyone, yet most on here can not see it. It's okay to insult and villify anyone other than Islam and it's followers here on the MT. A Muslim will blow up a public dinner and everyone here finds a way to blame someone else. The favorite is, blame an American!
:roll: Oh you're just sooo victimized.
As if to say the "American" couldn't encompass Muslim's either. Surely there cannot be Muslim Americans!
That obviously won't happen. Muslims can pray on Madison Avenue, but Christians can't even put a nativity scene on their lawn with out the ACLU crying about it.
...
Well... there you go again...
You can put a Nativity Scene up on your lawn in the middle of the Summer if you want to. Your neighbors might say shit... but, fuck them. And don't play that religious persecution card if a homeowner's association doesn't allow any Christmas decorations up after January 1 in their C,C&Rs. That is not about religion and all about property value$. So you can drop the 'Poor, poor persecuted me' routine. You are not being persecuted... even though you wish you were.
What you CAN'T do is put up your Nativity Scene in any property the I pay taxes on because you are claiming my taxes on your religion.
If you want to allow Nativity scenes on public property... you MUST also allow Minoras, Festivus Poles and whatever Kwannza uses. AND... you must allow Islamic symbols displayed during Ramadaan and Hindu symbols during Dwali. Yeah... that would go over well with you, wouldn't it... You be okay with The Crescent of Islam on the lawn of your courthouse during the month of October.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Byrnzie, debate with you is obviously fruitless because when you ask for somebody to prove something, and they go out of their way to do so with direct evidence and quotations that you demanded proof of, you then dismiss it as having “trawled the internet for whatever fits your bigoted rant…” Throughout this thread when you have demanded evidence or proof, I’ve tried to provide it to show that my claims are not baseless. My most recent claim was that basing law off of an unchallengeable holy text(s) is dangerous, especially when they contain language which could easily be used to support barbaric actions. I further have demonstrated that there are organized and financed groups seeking to spread such an ideology. You certainly appeared to demand proof that there was any support for my claims that islamic holy texts provided support for extremely barbaric actions, and it was provided in abundance.
You clearly don’t grasp what is being said when I tell you that if I provide evidence to you that zebras have stripes, and you retort with, “But so do tigers!” That doesn’t disprove that zebras have stripes! So I went out of my way to prove that there is language in the quran (and i’ve not yet bothered going through other available texts for further evidence yet because I felt I had already provided more than enough) proving that if the holy text is the basis of law, barbarism should come as no surprise and should be anticipated. You retort that similar language is in the Bible. Yes, you are right. It is. That is the same as saying tigers have stripes too. Do you not understand that it does absolutely nothing to nullify the argument’s validity. It is true that both the Bible and Quran contain abhorrent language to use a system of law or legal precedent. I wouldn’t advocate using either one as such. But because you have noted it is ALSO in the Bible, that does nothing to prove nor disprove that it is in the Quran (which I proved) and it makes it no less dangerous. In other words, it’s pointless to discuss in this context because THIS thread isn’t about Christianity or America, no matter how much you wish it were. I AM the sole authority on that fact, because I AM the creator of the thread and I am telling you the intention with which it was created. It was created to discuss Islam, dangers of Islamic law, and groups trying to spread it. Get the point yet?
You make claims like “…so…what? This is their culture and the way they choose to live.” However, I provide evidence that they not only want to live this way, the book on which they are basing their laws also states that the entire world should live this way or face various acts of barbarism. I say, “Whoa there... Maybe we better be paying attention and ready ourselves to confront this threat.” Furthermore, this book is not subject to challenge or change because it is supposedly the word of god and at least SOME vehemently believe so. I have provided proof that the SOME is not just a handful of whack-jobs. It’s groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Al Qaeda and other organized, large, dedicated or growing groups bent on expansion.
I show further evidence of atrocities and people being forced to convert to Islam or be burned while their wife is raped and show evidence directly lifted from holy texts SOME groups are seeking to base their laws wholly upon and it becomes very understandable why fire was used, why these people can act in the manner they factually have and why we should not anticipate this being the last event of this barbarism. Is the best defense to any of this seriously that I am just a hateful person and there is also dangerous language in the Bible so everything I say can be dismissed? Isn’t that fallacious argument by attacking the arguer instead of the evidence and then stating because you can find similar dangers in the world elsewhere that I shouldn’t bother paying attention to the ones I find, evidence and document in Islam in a thread about potential Islamic threat SOME of its practitioners pose? To use an analogy that I am trying hard to convey to you... I’m saying that Islam has some dangerous stripes that we should be wary of. You can say that Christianity or Judaism or any other group also has some dangerous stripes, but that does absolutely nothing to counter my claim that Islam has some dangerous stripes. Can you not see yet that, it IS beside the point? Either my facts aren’t facts, my evidence isn’t evidence, my claims aren’t sound or something of the sort. Attack the argument being made for something real or a problem with the validity of my claims.
My thread had no intention of attacking everything about Islam. It is attacking only a small portion of Islam’s beliefs, SOME of its practitioners who I have been identifying (such as the Muslim Brotherhood, practitioners of Sharia law, etc.). Never have I said I hate muslims, that I don’t want to protect muslims, that all muslims are bad people or anything of the sort. THAT would be bigoted. In fact, what I have been attacking are people “who are utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” In other words, bigots. Unfortunately for you, this happens to exactly match the ideology I am speaking against and of which I have provided irrefutable evidence directly from their most sacred holy texts upon which they seek to base their laws of society. They also are not content with only governing themselves in isolation. This "SOME" actively seeks to spread and expand and are encouraged to do so by the very same holy texts. Read those quotes listed earlier from the holy texts and surely even you can’t deny this logic.
Cosmo at least brings up a reasonable challenge to what I have written and seems to grasp the evidence presented. Asking the question of who are we to tell others how to rule and enforce laws, regardless of how barbaric we see them is a legitimate question which doesn’t rely upon seeking stripes on tigers to disprove those on zebras. I would argue that we have a right to have our ideas compete in rational discussion and enjoy the competition of ideas. I would argue that we have the right to be wary and defend ourselves from their desire to force Islamic laws upon us, whether slowly or rapidly (and I believe it would be slowly). I would also argue that certain systems of governance can and should be rationally evaluated as better or worse than others. I don’t believe in relativism to the point where everything is equally right all the time. Certain belief systems, legal systems and whatnot have better results for human beings than others. We can objectively see atrocities being committed at different levels in different systems and with different rulesets and I do not believe we are powerless to quantify and analyze them. Systems which forbid questioning, challenges, appeals and the like are especially bad legal systems if we evaluate them throughout history. They can objectively be shown to cause more harm than some competing systems. This goes back to part of my early argument and trying to warn that while relativism and multiculturalism often seem like virtuous beliefs, sometimes they lead us astray or paralyze our rationality. I believe, and others do not, that with effort, experience, study and analysis, we can objectively see that some systems are better for human beings than others and I believe that the sharia-style system of law and expansion of an Islamic ideology which permits gross acts of barbarism as evidenced in this thread can objectively be shown to be worse than other competing systems/ideas. I believe I can also objectively state that freedom is a good ideal to have. I am trying to compete in the realm of ideas and non-violently. I would argue that the people I am attacking through words would not offer me similar courtesy were they in a position of power over me. They would have reference to holy texts upon which they insist their laws are supreme and unable to be challenged and could rationalize my execution or other torture to silence my position. I would argue that objectively, my method is superior and a better ideal than their competing method, but I am not going to say that their method may not actually prove to be more effective at obtaining results. And that realization does trouble me.
I can see how hardcore relativists can disagree vehemently with me on this area of my debate, and I would just caution them about outcomes of taking stand and being wary vs. passive relativism in the light of such potential threats.
Ok, I'm probably going to let others run with the argument for awhile because I'm tired of typing so much. Haha
Well, stumbled into this following article and I think it is quite relevant to the topic of the thread. It is being reported that people holding the ideology I speak of throughout this thread are close to having functional nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. So I'll again stress that I don't think we can afford to take a passive stance based on relativism, tolerance and multiculturalism when faced with such information. Even if they aren't as close to having functional mass-killing weapons as this article claims, it is still their intention which they are actively pursuing:
'Al-Qaida on brink of using nuclear bomb'
By Heidi Blake and Christopher Hope, The Daily Telegraph February 1, 2011 8:47 PM StoryPhotos ( 1 )
Al-Qaida members participate in military training in Afghanistan in this file photo.Photograph by: Agence France-Presse Files, National Post, With Files From News ServicesAl-Qaida is on the verge of producing radioactive weapons after sourcing nuclear material and recruiting rogue scientists to build "dirty" bombs, according to leaked diplomatic documents.
A leading atomic regulator has privately warned that the world stands on the brink of a "nuclear 9/11".
Security briefings suggest that jihadi groups are also close to producing "workable and efficient" biological and chemical weapons that could kill thousands if unleashed in attacks on the West.
Thousands of classified American cables obtained by the WikiLeaks website and passed to The Daily Telegraph detail the international struggle to stop the spread of weapons-grade nuclear, chemical and biological material around the globe.
At a Nato meeting in January 2009, security chiefs briefed member states that al-Qaida was plotting a program of "dirty radioactive IEDs", makeshift nuclear roadside bombs that could be used against British troops in Afghanistan.
As well as causing a large explosion, a "dirty bomb" attack would contaminate the area for many years.
The briefings also state that al-Qaida documents found in Afghanistan in 2007 revealed that "greater advances" had been made in bioterrorism than was previously realized. An Indian national security adviser told American security personnel in June 2008 that terrorists had made a "manifest attempt to get fissile material" and "have the technical competence to manufacture an explosive device beyond a mere dirty bomb".
Alerts about the smuggling of nuclear material, sent to Washington from foreign U.S. embassies, document how criminal and terrorist gangs were trafficking large amounts of highly radioactive material across Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
The alerts explain how customs guards at remote border crossings used radiation alarms to identify and seize cargoes of uranium and plutonium.
Freight trains were found to be carrying weapons-grade nuclear material across the Kazakhstan-Russia border, highly enriched uranium was transported across Uganda by bus, and a "small time hustler" in Lisbon offered to sell radioactive plates stolen from Chernobyl.
In one incident in September 2009, two employees at the Rossing Uranium Mine in Namibia smuggled almost half a ton of uranium concentrate powder - yellowcake - out of the compound in plastic bags.
"Acute safety and security concerns" were even raised in 2008 about the uranium and plutonium laboratory of International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the nuclear safety watchdog.
Tomihiro Taniguchi, the deputy director general of the IAEA, has privately warned America that the world faces the threat of a "nuclear 9/11" if stores of uranium and plutonium were not secured against terrorists.
But diplomats visiting the IAEA's Austrian headquarters in April 2008 said that there was "no way to provide perimeter security" to its own laboratory because it has windows that leave it vulnerable to break-ins.
Senior British defence officials have raised "deep concerns" that a rogue scientist in the Pakistani nuclear program "could gradually smuggle enough material out to make a weapon", according to a document detailing official talks in London in February 2009.
Agricultural stores of deadly biological pathogens in Pakistan are also vulnerable to "extremists" who could use supplies of anthrax, foot and mouth disease and avian flu to develop lethal biological weapons.
Anthrax and other biological agents including smallpox, and avian flu could be sprayed from a shop-bought aerosol can in a crowded area, leaked security briefings warn.
The security of the world's only two declared smallpox stores in Atlanta, America, and Novosibirsk, Russia, has repeatedly been called into doubt by "a growing chorus of voices" at meetings of the World Health Assembly documented in the leaked cables.
The alarming disclosures come after Barack Obama, the U.S. president, last year declared nuclear terrorism "the single biggest threat" to international security with the potential to cause "extraordinary loss of life".
That obviously won't happen. Muslims can pray on Madison Avenue, but Christians can't even put a nativity scene on their lawn with out the ACLU crying about it.
...
Well... there you go again...
You can put a Nativity Scene up on your lawn in the middle of the Summer if you want to. Your neighbors might say shit... but, fuck them. And don't play that religious persecution card if a homeowner's association doesn't allow any Christmas decorations up after January 1 in their C,C&Rs. That is not about religion and all about property value$. So you can drop the 'Poor, poor persecuted me' routine. You are not being persecuted... even though you wish you were.
What you CAN'T do is put up your Nativity Scene in any property the I pay taxes on because you are claiming my taxes on your religion.
If you want to allow Nativity scenes on public property... you MUST also allow Minoras, Festivus Poles and whatever Kwannza uses. AND... you must allow Islamic symbols displayed during Ramadaan and Hindu symbols during Dwali. Yeah... that would go over well with you, wouldn't it... You be okay with The Crescent of Islam on the lawn of your courthouse during the month of October.
When American courts begin to allow Sikh daggers the way Canadian courts have, what will you say then?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
That obviously won't happen. Muslims can pray on Madison Avenue, but Christians can't even put a nativity scene on their lawn with out the ACLU crying about it.
...
Well... there you go again...
You can put a Nativity Scene up on your lawn in the middle of the Summer if you want to. Your neighbors might say shit... but, fuck them. And don't play that religious persecution card if a homeowner's association doesn't allow any Christmas decorations up after January 1 in their C,C&Rs. That is not about religion and all about property value$. So you can drop the 'Poor, poor persecuted me' routine. You are not being persecuted... even though you wish you were.
What you CAN'T do is put up your Nativity Scene in any property the I pay taxes on because you are claiming my taxes on your religion.
If you want to allow Nativity scenes on public property... you MUST also allow Minoras, Festivus Poles and whatever Kwannza uses. AND... you must allow Islamic symbols displayed during Ramadaan and Hindu symbols during Dwali. Yeah... that would go over well with you, wouldn't it... You be okay with The Crescent of Islam on the lawn of your courthouse during the month of October.
When American courts begin to allow Sikh daggers the way Canadian courts have, what will you say then?
...
Explain. What are Sikh Daggers and what does that have to do with Nativity Scenes on public property?
Thanx.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
God almighty, there it is again - what is the fascination with Nazi Germany over there in the US? We in Europe have moved on to a point where we don't need to bring it up everytime something we don't agree with happens, I just really don't get it at all.
Gun Control - Nazi Germany
Obama - Nazi Germany
Muslims - Nazi Germany
ugh, talk about being scard of your own shadows.
Good luck!
You profess to be concerned about people being executed by Muslims, in Muslim countries, according to Muslim law, and yet you claim I'm changing the topic when I ask why you're not equally outspoken and opposed to executions in your own country. The fact that you choose to focus on just one religion - which conveniently happens to be predominant outside of the U.S - and use the subject of executions to berate that religion and it's millions of followers, is proof that you're not serious. If you really cared about people being executed then you'd care about all people being executed, not just Muslims. You're simply using the subject of executions as a pretext to insult and villify Islam and it's followers.
Not cool my friend.
Peace
I see you as someone that wants freedom for everyone, yet most on here can not see it. It's okay to insult and villify anyone other than Islam and it's followers here on the MT. A Muslim will blow up a public dinner and everyone here finds a way to blame someone else. The favorite is, blame an American!
Well, I think it is obvious that as initial steps I'm continuing my own research and study into the matter and working to make other people aware of it, here and elsewhere. I'm certainly not going, "Hmm... I see a potentially major problem and I'm going to do absolutely nothing." Can I do something about every problem in the world? Nope. Am I trying to do some things to combat some problems and looking for egregious abuses to throw my voice against? Yep.
This thread, I feel, shows how people with an earnest and often understandable desire for political correctness, promotion of multiculturalism and religious tolerance can end up defending or ignoring rather horrific actions and instead try to shift the debate and/or analysis to unreleated or loosely related topics instead of confronting the facts. I believe it also has shown how a person coming forward with both evidence and questions about things like sharia law can quickly become the subject of ridicule and abuse for daring to say they challenge the barbarism they see before their very eyes and fear its potential growth.
Thank you, Ms. Coulter, for missing the point all together... as we pretty much expected you would.
...
The point is... Death Penalty is barbaric. Would everyone be happy if we exported sodium thiopental to iran so they can deliver lethal injections to adultrers? Because it seems to me like it is horrible to stone someone to death or chop off their heads... but, okey dokey to give them a leathal dose.
To me... the Death Penalty is barbaric... regardless of how it is adminstered.
Hail, Hail!!!
But, the U.S. DOES have a Death Penalty, right? That is the point.
...
Besides, who are you to say what laws they should and should not obey? Isn't Adultery one of the Ten Commandments? Doesn't the Bible say that the penalty for adultery is Death?
Just because you believe the Bible and the Ten Commandments are just a bunch of bullshit, doesn't mean they have to listen to you.
Hail, Hail!!!
Have you ever heard of something called 'perspective'? You come on here criticizing Islam and executions carried out under Sharia law, yet you think it's irrelevant to look at the situation right under your nose, in your own backyard.
Point is, you have no moral highground from which to single out Muslim executions for criticism whilst the same thing takes place everyday in your own country. If you have a problem with executions and expect to be taken seriously then you should be against executions in all countries and cultures.
Why have you singled out Muslims?
And what is it about Sharia law that you have such a problem with? Are you afraid America is about to become a Sharia state and that you'll be forced to wear a veil?
Why aren't you equally afraid of the U.S becoming a fundamentalist Christian state where masturbation is considered a sin, and where the teaching of evolution is banned in your schools?
Alright, it's clear you insist on discussing America and I've tried to stick to the point. So I'm going to step out of the discussion with you because I see it as fruitless in either direction. I've not said it is irrelevant to look at executions in America. I've said that if you want to discuss that, start a focused thread on it and I'll likely join in (though I would likely not waste my time at this point if you were the creator of such a thread). I believe it was you or at least another person in this thread who argued that living in a country does not make one responsible for all the crimes of that nation. I accept that claim and I'm not guilty for executions in America. And who says I'm not concerned about the US becoming a fundamentalist Christian state? Perhaps that is one of many concerns by which I place my votes. Again though, that is not the topic of this thread despite your wishes to turn this into a Christian/American discussion instead of what it was started as. When you can post the video of the Christians stoning members of their culture to death, or when Westboro has killed somebody or has any real power, or when America begins executing people for adultery, or when Christians start espousing "eye for an eye" law in organized and financed fashions across the globe, then maybe it would be worth derailing the topic of the thread to focus on. This is not intended as a defense of Christianity or America, it's just again restating that you're off the point at hand in the thread. Since you will not stick to the topic of the thread and evaluate it on its own merits or lack thereof, there's really no point in further discussion between the two of us. You cannot seem to grasp that topics can be selected and discussed without making jumps to unrelated or loosely related topics. You are going to cling to muslims being singled out and forbid focused discussion on the topic presented despite invitiations for you to start your own threads on any topic you personally want to discuss. I had a topi I wanted to discuss that was focused and asked you to respect that topic. I made the thread. You are free to make your own and discuss anything of your liking. Instead, you want to force me to change from the topic I started to discuss your topic of America and Christianity, even though I have never tried to present a defense or detailed analysis of them throughout this thread and have repeatedly stated that was not my interest in this thread. Don't expect further discussion from me with you on this thread because you will not respect the topic of the thread and don't seem to want to make your own to discuss the topic that appears to be the only thing of interest to you.
"The leader of Jordan's powerful Muslim Brotherhood warned Saturday that unrest in Egypt will spread across the Mideast and Arabs will topple leaders allied with the United States.
Hammam Saeed's comments were made at a protest outside the Egyptian Embassy in Amman, inspired by massive rallies in neighbouring Egypt demanding the downfall of the country's longtime president, Hosni Mubarak."
Source: http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadi ... Id=5796633
Now have a look at the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood:
The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood
So I again post evidence and links of established muslim groups seeking to instill law based solely upon an unquestionable religious book and show their desire to spread. As we should know, the holy book in question does provide for extremely barbaric actions to be taken in the name of "law" and there is obviously a clear and stated desire to spread. Should we still keep our head in the sand? Should we still not acknowledge there being adequate cause to be wary, vigilant and defensive to combat this insanity? I argue that to continue to rally under the banner of tolerance, political correctness and multiculturalism when faced with this is pure folly. There are times for tolerance, political correctness and multiculturalism. This threat is not such a time. I don't care which skin color, religion or group is seeking to do this. I would take a stand against any group(s) with such an aim.
"I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me." Quran 051.056
Believers in Allah are the best people in the world : "Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah." Quran 003.110
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Quran 009.029
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him;" Quran 003.085
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Women appear to be worth half a muslim man and if a legal system is based on the holy works being advocated by such groups, see where women's rights should anticipate heading:
"Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women" Quran 002.282
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great." Quran 004.034
"And say to the believing women that they should (...) not display their beauty and ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex" Quran 024.031
Now one person had questioned why I would relate any of this as being similar to nazi Germany. Well, as I see it... we have organized groups believing they are superior to others with the right to slaughter them for not being the same as them. One is based on racial superiority and another is based primarily on religious superiority. Both seem to have had or are having many people turn a blind eye, and I'm hoping that people wake up sooner and confront the insanity this time. Sure there are differences, but I think that reading this stuff and seeing that there are people who want it to be the basis of law and culture should be sending alarm bells ringing.
And...so...what? This is their culture and the way they choose to live.
Does it? Where's your proof?
And I thought you only had a problem with Sharia law? Looks like you have a problem with all of Islam.
Looks like you're trying really hard to find reasons to criticize and villfy Islam. Except nothing you've posted here carries any weight.
Why are you not equally outraged by followers of Judaism, or Christianity who see themselves as the chosen people, and the followers of the only true God, respectively?
And here we go again...
One thing to consider Cosmo, the U.S. does not implement religious law. Separation of church and state, I do believe. Whether you are for or against the death penalty, at least the U.S. justice system does not rely on scripture to judge.
Proof that we should anticipate the return of crucifixion and cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, exiles and “heavy punishment” which one could only assume could grant great leeway to enforcers who claim the authority of god on their side:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;" Quran 005.033
Further evidence of barbarism to be expected from Islamic texts:
Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from Allah. 5:38
Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. 5:45
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. 9:5
Those who consider the Quran to be "mere fables" will be branded on the nose.68:15-16
Evidence that atheists and other nonbelievers should expect to be killed under such a system:
"They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing : But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and take no friends or helpers from their ranks;" Quran 004.089
Disbelievers will be burned with fire. 2:39, 90
Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89
Those who hide the Scripture will have their bellies eaten with fire. Theirs will be a painful doom. 2:174
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91
Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don't kill them.) 2:191-2
Those who marry unbelievers will burn in the Fire. 2:221
Those who disbelieve will be fuel for the Fire. 3:10
Disbelievers are evil and will dwell in hell forever. 16:27-29
Allah has prepared a Fire for the disbelievers. When they want a shower, Allah will give them a shower of molten lead to burn their faces. 18:29
Nothing prevents non-muslims from believing in Islam. So it's their own fault when they are sent to their doom. 18:55
Muslims that make friends with disbelievers will face a doom prepared for them by Allah. 5:80
Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water, and will face a painful doom. 6:70
"We drowned them in the sea: because they denied Our revelations." 7:136
The worst thing anyone can do is deny the revelations of Allah. Those who do so will be awared an evil doom. 6:157 (let’s just imagine how this one could be misused)
Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. 8:59-60
Evidence that Jews should be majorly concerned:
Jews are the greediest of all humankind. They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. 2:96
For the wrongdoing Jews, Allah has prepared a painful doom. 4:160-1
Allah will punish the disbelieving Jews until the Day of Resurrection. 7:167
Evidence that Christians should be majorly concerned:
Christians will be burned in the Fire. 5:72
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to the rich and greedy Christian monks and Jewish rabbis. 9:34
Christians are wrong about the Trinity. For that they will have a painful doom. 5:73
Evidence that we should expect war from groups basing their beliefs and laws on Islamic texts:
War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216
If you die fighting for Allah, you'll be rewarded in heaven. 3:157
"Think not of those, who are slain in the way of Allah, as dead."
(Quoted by Osama bin Laden in his 'letter to America' regarding the 11 September 2001 attacks.) 3:169-171
Allah will bestow a vast reward on those who fight in religious wars. 4:74
Fight the disbelievers and hypocrites. Be harsh with them. They are all going to hell anyway. 9:73
Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111
Fight disbelievers who are near you, and let them see the harshness in you. 9:123
Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61
Those who hear and reject Allah's revelations are sinful liars. Give them tidings of a painful doom. 45:7-8
Smite the necks of the disbelievers whenever you fight against them. Those who die fighting for Allah will be rewarded. 47:4
If you refuse to fight for Allah, he will punish you with a painful doom. 48:16
Sharia law states the following:
Adulterous couples are to be stoned to death
Prostitutes are to be hanged in public
Women in the company of men who are not blood relatives are to be executed
Rape victims should be punished
Women cannot vote or get elected
Husbands are permitted to beat their wives
Women cannot do anything outside the house without their father or husband’s consent
Women cannot get custody of their children
Women must wear the hijab outside of the house
Now if I have any facts wrong, please feel free correct me. I am honestly only interested in truthful information and rational discussion of it. But based on my studies to this point, I see no reason why I or other unbiased observers should not be alarmed to think there are organized groups planning to use islamic texts as the basis of society and its laws. It appears to me to establish frightening "precedents", can obviously be used to promote rampant violations of religious and civil liberties, can support barbaric punishments and is not subject to rational challenge because it is supposedly the word of god.
I am also having a hard time thinking we should not expect more and more scenes like the image below, which is of a Christian who was set on fire and had his wife raped because he was unwilling to convert to Islam. I don't care if this man would have been Jewish, Shinto or another Muslim... I see this as something to vehemently oppose the spread of. There does appear to be text and beliefs which support such atrocities as this:
And for the last time, Byrnzie. This is a thread on the discussion of ISLAM. Whether or not I or anyone else prove similar atrocities or something in other religions has no relevance in this study on ISLAM. Proving atrocities in another religion or country, etc. does nothing to change the validity of THIS argument. Either I am succeeding in proving, with evidence, that there are organized and financed groups seeking to expand dangerous and barbaric practices based on the Islamic faith or I am not. For instance, if I proved with evidence that zebras have stripes, proving that tigers also have stripes doesn't disprove that zebras have stripes! I believe I am quite convincigly demonstrating that there IS something we should be concerned about with regard to at least a portion of the Islamic faith and that we should do what is in our power to do to prevent its growth. have not made one single claim that there are not things wrong with other nations or religions too. It's an argument beside the point at hand.
That obviously won't happen. Muslims can pray on Madison Avenue, but Christians can't even put a nativity scene on their lawn with out the ACLU crying about it.
It doesn't say those on 'opposite sides'. It says those who wage war against Allah and his Messenger.
It says the same thing in the Bible.
When you say you've 'studied' Islam can you please elaborate? It's just that it looks to me like you've simply trawled the internet for whatever fits your bigoted rant against Islam.
It may be a thread aimed solely at attacking everything to do with Islam, but I won't play your game. And it's not beside the point to look at the bigger picture. You come from an imperialist nation that has 'In God We Trust' on all of it's paper money. All of your leaders feel compelled to flaunt their so-called 'Christianity' at every opportunity in order to insure they get voted into office. Whether you like it or not, you live in a so-called 'Christian' nation that is currently engaged in two foreign wars of occupation against Muslims, and yet you want us to believe that the Westen world is under threat from Muslims?
Sorry, but this is all just bigoted horseshit.
And seeing how you have so much time on your hands, try trawling the internet for quotes from the old Testament and I guarantee you can find just as many, if not more, than the bunch you just copied and pasted above.
And I am GLAD we don't implement religious law... that we are NOT a theocracy... that the church does NOT have legislative powers over us... that we are NOT a nation that is bound to Christianity (or any other single religion). We get to choose how we worship... and NOT told how to worship. That is our right under the First Amendment.
...
But, who are WE to say how other countries run their shows? If Iran is a Theocracy... who are we to tell them how to rule and to enforce their laws... regardless of how barbaric we see them? How would we take to them, telling US how we should govern? I'll tell you.. we'd tell them to go fuck themselves... and rightly so.
...
I am against the Death Penalty... whether here or in Iran. Others are okay with Iran's Death Penalty... as long as they administer it the same way we do. Doesn't make sense to me.
Hail, Hail!!!
As if to say the "American" couldn't encompass Muslim's either. Surely there cannot be Muslim Americans!
Well... there you go again...
You can put a Nativity Scene up on your lawn in the middle of the Summer if you want to. Your neighbors might say shit... but, fuck them. And don't play that religious persecution card if a homeowner's association doesn't allow any Christmas decorations up after January 1 in their C,C&Rs. That is not about religion and all about property value$. So you can drop the 'Poor, poor persecuted me' routine. You are not being persecuted... even though you wish you were.
What you CAN'T do is put up your Nativity Scene in any property the I pay taxes on because you are claiming my taxes on your religion.
If you want to allow Nativity scenes on public property... you MUST also allow Minoras, Festivus Poles and whatever Kwannza uses. AND... you must allow Islamic symbols displayed during Ramadaan and Hindu symbols during Dwali. Yeah... that would go over well with you, wouldn't it... You be okay with The Crescent of Islam on the lawn of your courthouse during the month of October.
Hail, Hail!!!
You clearly don’t grasp what is being said when I tell you that if I provide evidence to you that zebras have stripes, and you retort with, “But so do tigers!” That doesn’t disprove that zebras have stripes! So I went out of my way to prove that there is language in the quran (and i’ve not yet bothered going through other available texts for further evidence yet because I felt I had already provided more than enough) proving that if the holy text is the basis of law, barbarism should come as no surprise and should be anticipated. You retort that similar language is in the Bible. Yes, you are right. It is. That is the same as saying tigers have stripes too. Do you not understand that it does absolutely nothing to nullify the argument’s validity. It is true that both the Bible and Quran contain abhorrent language to use a system of law or legal precedent. I wouldn’t advocate using either one as such. But because you have noted it is ALSO in the Bible, that does nothing to prove nor disprove that it is in the Quran (which I proved) and it makes it no less dangerous. In other words, it’s pointless to discuss in this context because THIS thread isn’t about Christianity or America, no matter how much you wish it were. I AM the sole authority on that fact, because I AM the creator of the thread and I am telling you the intention with which it was created. It was created to discuss Islam, dangers of Islamic law, and groups trying to spread it. Get the point yet?
You make claims like “…so…what? This is their culture and the way they choose to live.” However, I provide evidence that they not only want to live this way, the book on which they are basing their laws also states that the entire world should live this way or face various acts of barbarism. I say, “Whoa there... Maybe we better be paying attention and ready ourselves to confront this threat.” Furthermore, this book is not subject to challenge or change because it is supposedly the word of god and at least SOME vehemently believe so. I have provided proof that the SOME is not just a handful of whack-jobs. It’s groups like the Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, Al Qaeda and other organized, large, dedicated or growing groups bent on expansion.
I show further evidence of atrocities and people being forced to convert to Islam or be burned while their wife is raped and show evidence directly lifted from holy texts SOME groups are seeking to base their laws wholly upon and it becomes very understandable why fire was used, why these people can act in the manner they factually have and why we should not anticipate this being the last event of this barbarism. Is the best defense to any of this seriously that I am just a hateful person and there is also dangerous language in the Bible so everything I say can be dismissed? Isn’t that fallacious argument by attacking the arguer instead of the evidence and then stating because you can find similar dangers in the world elsewhere that I shouldn’t bother paying attention to the ones I find, evidence and document in Islam in a thread about potential Islamic threat SOME of its practitioners pose? To use an analogy that I am trying hard to convey to you... I’m saying that Islam has some dangerous stripes that we should be wary of. You can say that Christianity or Judaism or any other group also has some dangerous stripes, but that does absolutely nothing to counter my claim that Islam has some dangerous stripes. Can you not see yet that, it IS beside the point? Either my facts aren’t facts, my evidence isn’t evidence, my claims aren’t sound or something of the sort. Attack the argument being made for something real or a problem with the validity of my claims.
My thread had no intention of attacking everything about Islam. It is attacking only a small portion of Islam’s beliefs, SOME of its practitioners who I have been identifying (such as the Muslim Brotherhood, practitioners of Sharia law, etc.). Never have I said I hate muslims, that I don’t want to protect muslims, that all muslims are bad people or anything of the sort. THAT would be bigoted. In fact, what I have been attacking are people “who are utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.” In other words, bigots. Unfortunately for you, this happens to exactly match the ideology I am speaking against and of which I have provided irrefutable evidence directly from their most sacred holy texts upon which they seek to base their laws of society. They also are not content with only governing themselves in isolation. This "SOME" actively seeks to spread and expand and are encouraged to do so by the very same holy texts. Read those quotes listed earlier from the holy texts and surely even you can’t deny this logic.
Cosmo at least brings up a reasonable challenge to what I have written and seems to grasp the evidence presented. Asking the question of who are we to tell others how to rule and enforce laws, regardless of how barbaric we see them is a legitimate question which doesn’t rely upon seeking stripes on tigers to disprove those on zebras. I would argue that we have a right to have our ideas compete in rational discussion and enjoy the competition of ideas. I would argue that we have the right to be wary and defend ourselves from their desire to force Islamic laws upon us, whether slowly or rapidly (and I believe it would be slowly). I would also argue that certain systems of governance can and should be rationally evaluated as better or worse than others. I don’t believe in relativism to the point where everything is equally right all the time. Certain belief systems, legal systems and whatnot have better results for human beings than others. We can objectively see atrocities being committed at different levels in different systems and with different rulesets and I do not believe we are powerless to quantify and analyze them. Systems which forbid questioning, challenges, appeals and the like are especially bad legal systems if we evaluate them throughout history. They can objectively be shown to cause more harm than some competing systems. This goes back to part of my early argument and trying to warn that while relativism and multiculturalism often seem like virtuous beliefs, sometimes they lead us astray or paralyze our rationality. I believe, and others do not, that with effort, experience, study and analysis, we can objectively see that some systems are better for human beings than others and I believe that the sharia-style system of law and expansion of an Islamic ideology which permits gross acts of barbarism as evidenced in this thread can objectively be shown to be worse than other competing systems/ideas. I believe I can also objectively state that freedom is a good ideal to have. I am trying to compete in the realm of ideas and non-violently. I would argue that the people I am attacking through words would not offer me similar courtesy were they in a position of power over me. They would have reference to holy texts upon which they insist their laws are supreme and unable to be challenged and could rationalize my execution or other torture to silence my position. I would argue that objectively, my method is superior and a better ideal than their competing method, but I am not going to say that their method may not actually prove to be more effective at obtaining results. And that realization does trouble me.
I can see how hardcore relativists can disagree vehemently with me on this area of my debate, and I would just caution them about outcomes of taking stand and being wary vs. passive relativism in the light of such potential threats.
Ok, I'm probably going to let others run with the argument for awhile because I'm tired of typing so much. Haha
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Qaida+ ... story.html
'Al-Qaida on brink of using nuclear bomb'
By Heidi Blake and Christopher Hope, The Daily Telegraph February 1, 2011 8:47 PM StoryPhotos ( 1 )
Al-Qaida members participate in military training in Afghanistan in this file photo.Photograph by: Agence France-Presse Files, National Post, With Files From News ServicesAl-Qaida is on the verge of producing radioactive weapons after sourcing nuclear material and recruiting rogue scientists to build "dirty" bombs, according to leaked diplomatic documents.
A leading atomic regulator has privately warned that the world stands on the brink of a "nuclear 9/11".
Security briefings suggest that jihadi groups are also close to producing "workable and efficient" biological and chemical weapons that could kill thousands if unleashed in attacks on the West.
Thousands of classified American cables obtained by the WikiLeaks website and passed to The Daily Telegraph detail the international struggle to stop the spread of weapons-grade nuclear, chemical and biological material around the globe.
At a Nato meeting in January 2009, security chiefs briefed member states that al-Qaida was plotting a program of "dirty radioactive IEDs", makeshift nuclear roadside bombs that could be used against British troops in Afghanistan.
As well as causing a large explosion, a "dirty bomb" attack would contaminate the area for many years.
The briefings also state that al-Qaida documents found in Afghanistan in 2007 revealed that "greater advances" had been made in bioterrorism than was previously realized. An Indian national security adviser told American security personnel in June 2008 that terrorists had made a "manifest attempt to get fissile material" and "have the technical competence to manufacture an explosive device beyond a mere dirty bomb".
Alerts about the smuggling of nuclear material, sent to Washington from foreign U.S. embassies, document how criminal and terrorist gangs were trafficking large amounts of highly radioactive material across Europe, Africa and the Middle East.
The alerts explain how customs guards at remote border crossings used radiation alarms to identify and seize cargoes of uranium and plutonium.
Freight trains were found to be carrying weapons-grade nuclear material across the Kazakhstan-Russia border, highly enriched uranium was transported across Uganda by bus, and a "small time hustler" in Lisbon offered to sell radioactive plates stolen from Chernobyl.
In one incident in September 2009, two employees at the Rossing Uranium Mine in Namibia smuggled almost half a ton of uranium concentrate powder - yellowcake - out of the compound in plastic bags.
"Acute safety and security concerns" were even raised in 2008 about the uranium and plutonium laboratory of International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the nuclear safety watchdog.
Tomihiro Taniguchi, the deputy director general of the IAEA, has privately warned America that the world faces the threat of a "nuclear 9/11" if stores of uranium and plutonium were not secured against terrorists.
But diplomats visiting the IAEA's Austrian headquarters in April 2008 said that there was "no way to provide perimeter security" to its own laboratory because it has windows that leave it vulnerable to break-ins.
Senior British defence officials have raised "deep concerns" that a rogue scientist in the Pakistani nuclear program "could gradually smuggle enough material out to make a weapon", according to a document detailing official talks in London in February 2009.
Agricultural stores of deadly biological pathogens in Pakistan are also vulnerable to "extremists" who could use supplies of anthrax, foot and mouth disease and avian flu to develop lethal biological weapons.
Anthrax and other biological agents including smallpox, and avian flu could be sprayed from a shop-bought aerosol can in a crowded area, leaked security briefings warn.
The security of the world's only two declared smallpox stores in Atlanta, America, and Novosibirsk, Russia, has repeatedly been called into doubt by "a growing chorus of voices" at meetings of the World Health Assembly documented in the leaked cables.
The alarming disclosures come after Barack Obama, the U.S. president, last year declared nuclear terrorism "the single biggest threat" to international security with the potential to cause "extraordinary loss of life".
When American courts begin to allow Sikh daggers the way Canadian courts have, what will you say then?
http://www.thomasmore.org/qry/page.taf?id=119&_function=detail&sbtblct_uid1=877
Aerial...
Please, explain, in your own words, what this article means. I don't get it... How does AIG make laws that we have to obey?
Thanx.
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Explain. What are Sikh Daggers and what does that have to do with Nativity Scenes on public property?
Thanx.
Hail, Hail!!!