A reason to fight, and a reason to stand your ground

prfctlefts wrote:

Great thread. It's good to see that some on here are seeing sharia law for what it is and the threat it poses here in America. Like clock work though there the same posters spouting their typical pc and uninformed comments that are posted here on a daily basis.

Just curious, can you describe what you consider the most threatening thing that sharia law has on America?
Do you consider sharia law an immediate threat on America?

Release_Me wrote:

Did I catch you at a bad time of the day or what? I did not at all mean to sound arrogant or all-knowing in saying what I did, I was simply conveying my thoughts on the situation I see around me. If you lived in a country where the majority of people are un-educated and base their religious understanding on what the so-called mullahs say, you would know what I mean. True Islam is nothing else other than the Quran and Sunnah, which is a fact that should be obvious to any Muslim. Yet, we have laws in our country which are completely repugnant to Islam and are yet labeled as Islamic and supported vehemently by a fair majority of people. I assume you live in a country where the situation is very different from mine, in that case, I understand why you may have been offended. I guess I ought to be more careful in qualifying my statements by saying "muslims in my country". That said, I agree with most of what you say in your post regarding the media projecting Islam negatively. As far as the intentions of the OP, I cannot claim to know them and I give him the benefit of doubt.

You weren't simply conveying your thoughts, you made a statement like "probably all Muslims don't represent/know about 'True Islam'." You are selling something in a statement like that, which is not even close to reality. Like I said before, even if you weren't trying to say MOST Muslims believe in that, you were atleast giving the idea that a large amount do, which is unfortunate and incorrect.

As for the rest of your points, look, my point is not to say that Muslims needn't to reevaluate the study of Islam and begin a sort of 'reformation' process (in moving away from the Salafi/Wahabbi trend), but rather that I think your criticism is far too strong on blaming all Muslims and ignoring reality/history. For example, even in your country of Pakistan, Islam was never so strict until Gen Zia ul-Haq became president in the 80s (I believe it was that time). He instituted many radical reforms in fundamentalist Islam. He was kept in power largely with American support, and instituted these reforms with Saudi money. Even with the Taliban, the story of American support for them is largely known by most people who think. It's not like all the mullahs and Islamic clerics suddenly woke up and became idiots. Lots of these clerics have been pushed by these repressive regimes, like Saudi Arabia, etc, and other clerics have been squeezed out. Which is why many times these clerics end up going to Western countries. Now the problem is that the media then capitalizes on these idiots' sermons and rulings and try to make them representative of what Islam actually teaches. It's pathetic. In a sense, I agree with you, I just don't like the way your presenting your view and I feel like that has to do with the environment you've been growing up in, one which I am not familiar with. I think in general Muslims definitely have a long way to go, but the popular movements in Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, etc., are all good signs. This means that Muslims will finally be able to speak for themselves, and these repressive regimes with their un-Islamic laws will no longer be representative of Islam. The problem is that this issue does not solely lie in the hands of Muslims. American foreign policy largely dictates who rules what. This is just a plain fact and does not need defending. If Muslims want to speak for themselves, if they want to finally have their voices heard and be able to practice what they truly want and solve this crisis in Islam then Americans will also need to force their government to back the fuck off, stop supporting repressive Islamic regimes, and stop interfering in Muslim issues. It will be better for America and better for Muslims, but when has America done anything logical? Decades of supporting Israel at the expense of millions is proof of that.

As for actually learning about what Muslims think, I suggest reading the book "Who Speaks for Islam?" by John Esposito; he presents statistics, not his opinion, not even historical discussions, or anything. They just took polls in Muslim countries and presented them in this book to help give a better idea of what Muslims think about things like equal rights for Women, what it means to incorporate Shari`ah with democracy, terrorism, etc.

There's a problem with lots of the posters here. I tried to briefly talk about this in my earlier post but it was clearly ignored (will probably be ignored again). You all sit here talking about Shari`ah like you know anything about it. You clearly don't. Even Release_Me tried to briefly discuss it (though I don't agree with the way he did; I don't think you should have specifically addressed the rulings on certain issues. People need to learn WHAT Shari`ah is, HOW it works, etc. Obviously you can't shed light on that in simply one post so I don't expect anything from you. I don't, for example, agree with you when you say 'True Islam is only the Qur`an and the Sunnah' ... Islam and more specifically Shari`ah does involve much more. True, those are the basic sources, and they are considered infallible, though even just the Sunnah actually involves an entire science as to what you can trust and what is unreliable in it when applying to legal rulings, but you get the point)... I mean, I simply think if people want to truly discuss Shari`ah then they need to atleast read books on what Shari`ah is. And no, not books written by political pundits, but ones written by actual scholars on the issue. And reading articles online does not constitute as doing research, god dammit. Especially when it comes to such a delicate topic.

My statement was: "True Islam rarely ever gets out to non-Muslims, in fact it probably doesn't even get out to the majority of Muslims themselves." I admit I ought to have been more specific, because sitting here in Pakistan, I can only judge on the basis of what I see around me. And trust me, the majority of people here really do not bother to have an understanding of what Islam really is. I'm not talking about just the poor who can't afford education, I'm talking about educated people who are my friends, colleagues, etc. Sure, we are born muslims and go the mosque, pay Zakat and all, but a VERY small minority actually refers to the Quran and Sunnah for religious matters. People generally take the opinion of mullahs as indisputable facts, and those mullahs have been educated in madrassahs where they've been taught a certain version of Islam which just doesn't tolerate scrutiny. If I were to go to a mullah and ask him to give me evidence from the Quran and Sunnah that the punishment for Blasphemy is death, he'll simply say: "What more evidence do you need? We are all agreed in this matter. Do you think we are idiots?" Those are the sort of people we've entrusted Islam to, here in my country. I hope you can better understand where I was coming from now, because it really isn't a distortion of facts when I say that the majority of Pakistani muslims do not know, or do not bother to know, what Islam is. Sure, there are MANY who are against the death penalty for Blasphemy for example, but most of those are secularists or human rights activists. They don't bring forth any religious arguments because they don't have any, which is why they fail to convince the masses who are emotionally manipulated by mullahs calling for protection of the sanctity of Islam by supporting this law.

I reiterate that the situation may be different from country to country, so I shouldn't be making any sweeping statements for all muslims or even the majority of the world's muslims.

Even though I agree with your assessment of the political situation of the world at large and how muslims are being cornered by American policy and the media, it is my firm belief as a muslim that neither America nor the media controls what is happening in the world, it's only God who has that control. If we want to blame the Americans and the media, that's all good because they are certainly playing their part, but we need to look within. We need to reform ourselves and by that, I don't mean we should be moving away from Islam, rather moving towards it and away from the clerics who have clear political motives. I am familiar with Zia's policies and the fact that he was supported by the west, but the popularity of his laws and the mullahs who use these laws for their political objectives is rooted in the ignorance of the masses. Without popular support, these mullahs would be powerless.

I can see where you're coming from when you say I shouldn't be discussing specific rulings of the Shariah, it's a fair criticism. My objective in doing so was not necessarily educating people about Shariah laws, but rather making them see the obvious contradiction in what THEY believe to be Shariah and what actual Shariah entails. If anything, I hoped that this would encourage people to do some real research before they start commenting based solely on what they hear in the media or read on the internet.

As far as true Islam or Shariah being based on anything other than the Quran and Sunnah, I beg to differ. Consider a muslim who was living in Iraq 100 years after the death of the Holy Prophet. He had only knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah at his disposal if he was faced with an issue and needed guidance. Islam was as complete then as it is now, all additional books on Ahadith and Islamic jurisprudence by our scholars can be used as a helping tool for sure, but they are not independent sources of law. All their contents need to be scrutinized in the light of the Quran and Sunnah before they can be understood or accepted. By Sunnah, I mean the practices of the Holy Prophet which were passed down from generation to generation, like the method of prayer, haj, etc. Ahadith need to be kept separate from these because their contents need the Quran to give them meaning. Simply quoting a hadith out of context can create a ton of problems.

I agree that for a non-Muslim trying to understand what the Shariah is and how it works, it would serve him well to go through a book on Islamic jurisprudence. My point is simply that the Shariah itself is not dependent on these books.

Also, you make a good point about what is considered barbaric by different people. But again, if a person feels that punishing someone for adultery with a hundred stripes is barbaric, then so be it. What is acceptable to a person depends on his own personal upbringing and surroundings. What bothered me was the fact that Shariah was being grossly misrepresented by ascribing things to it that were simply untrue. Hence, I attempted to specify some of the actual rulings in the context that they were applicable. It may not have been the best approach, I'm only human

Finally, let me make it clear that I don't disagree in principle with most of what you say, it makes a lot of sense to me. I guess we just have different approaches to the same issue.

Soulfire42 wrote:

I am at least pleased to see that the sharia laws and enforcements have been made illegal in the country and hope that it eventually results in its demise. However, the stated resurgence of sharia is troublesome to read about. I fail to see the lack of barbarity or the wisdom of sharia in any circumstance. Basing a legal system upon unquestionable religious authority/divine word is madness. Sure there are standards of law and morality which can be shared between legal systems and religions, but law which is not subject to appeal, challenge, etc. because it is supposedly the word of divinity is absurd and has tremendous potential and evidence of being misused.

I am going to write this in capital letters. Maybe then it'll get through your thick skull:

READING ARTICLES ON THE MISUSE OF SHARI`AH DOES NOT QUALIFY AS RESEARCHING WHAT SHARI`AH IS. JUST AS READING ARTICLES ON THE MISUSE OF ANYTHING DOES NOT QUALIFY AS RESEARCHING WHATEVER SAID TOPIC IS. STOP COMMENTING ON SHARI`AH. YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO DO SO, YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS.

I find it particularly hilarious how you chose to bold the quotations in your article where it suited you, but failed to quote where he said, "this is against the rules of Islam." Of course why would you highlight such a thing? You don't even know what the rules of Islam are in the first place! You find random articles of Muslims applying terrible judgment and torturous rulings and generalize it. Do you realize how many people can find such tactics applied in Christian, Jewish, or secular law proceedings?? What's the point you are trying to make? That Shari`ah is terrible and religious law is barbaric? I find it hilarious that you, who has absolutely no scholarly research WHATSOEVER on this topic, or ANYTHING having to do with it (whether it be Islamic history, the Qur'an, or the most basic beliefs Islam promotes), find yourself perfectly capable of posting about it. I'm done responding to you. I swear it's like arguing with a child who refuses to accept that he or she cannot have chocolate for dinner.

___________ wrote:

Soulfire42 wrote:

I am at least pleased to see that the sharia laws and enforcements have been made illegal in the country and hope that it eventually results in its demise. However, the stated resurgence of sharia is troublesome to read about. I fail to see the lack of barbarity or the wisdom of sharia in any circumstance. Basing a legal system upon unquestionable religious authority/divine word is madness. Sure there are standards of law and morality which can be shared between legal systems and religions, but law which is not subject to appeal, challenge, etc. because it is supposedly the word of divinity is absurd and has tremendous potential and evidence of being misused.

I am going to write this in capital letters. Maybe then it'll get through your thick skull:

READING ARTICLES ON THE MISUSE OF SHARI`AH DOES NOT QUALIFY AS RESEARCHING WHAT SHARI`AH IS. JUST AS READING ARTICLES ON THE MISUSE OF ANYTHING DOES NOT QUALIFY AS RESEARCHING WHATEVER SAID TOPIC IS. STOP COMMENTING ON SHARI`AH. YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY TO DO SO, YOU DO NOT EVEN KNOW WHAT IT IS.

I find it particularly hilarious how you chose to bold the quotations in your article where it suited you, but failed to quote where he said, "this is against the rules of Islam." Of course why would you highlight such a thing? You don't even know what the rules of Islam are in the first place! You find random articles of Muslims applying terrible judgment and torturous rulings and generalize it. Do you realize how many people can find such tactics applied in Christian, Jewish, or secular law proceedings?? What's the point you are trying to make? That Shari`ah is terrible and religious law is barbaric? I find it hilarious that you, who has absolutely no scholarly research WHATSOEVER on this topic, or ANYTHING having to do with it (whether it be Islamic history, the Qur'an, or the most basic beliefs Islam promotes), find yourself perfectly capable of posting about it. I'm done responding to you. I swear it's like arguing with a child who refuses to accept that he or she cannot have chocolate for dinner.

You said it well.

Soulfire42, consider the following:

1. Shariah isn't defined by what village elders in Bangladesh think or do, it is defined by the Quran and Sunnah.

2. A punishment can only be given once a crime is proven beyond doubt. This is a very basic principle of any legal system, including Shariah. It is clearly evident that mere accusation was used as evidence here. Also, if the crime was proven, the man had to be given the same punishment.

3. The way the punishment was handed out was completely un-Islamic, to say that it was in accordance with Shariah is just stupid.

4. A person wrongly accusing someone of adultery is himself liable to the punishment of Qadhf (false accusation) which is 80 lashes and his testimony is not to be accepted in future:

Those who accuse honourable women and bring not four witnesses as an evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes upon them, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Ever-Forgiving and Most-Merciful. And those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves shall swear four times by Allah that they are telling the truth and the fifth time that the curse of Allah be on them if they are lying. But this shall avert the punishment from the wife if she swears four times by Allah and says that this person is a liar and the fifth time she says that the curse of Allah be on her if he is telling the truth. (24:4-9)

This would discourage anyone who has the intention of settling a personal score or someone who just wants to misuse the law.

5. The accused is always considered innocent unless proven guilty, this should be absolutely clear from the above verse.

6. Shariah law cannot be enforced in isolation by village elders in their respective villages. The government is the sole authority in this regard and it has to decide whether it even has the capability to implement Shariah. This would entail having a council of highly qualified, learned scholars to first form a consensus on major issues, in addition to establishing courts where judges themselves would have to be well-versed in Islamic law. Unless these conditions can be met, no government can make a serious attempt at implementing Shariah.

7. Man-made laws can be questioned, but that doesn't make them better or more just. It just shows that they, like human beings, can be unjust. As of now, I myself don't know of a single Muslim country where Shariah law is being practised in it's true spirit. Hence, you quoting examples of it's misuse doesn't prove that the Shariah is unjust, barbaric or deserves to be eradicated. It just reinforces a fact we already know: human beings can be vile, intolerant and plain ignorant.

It doesn't serve any real purpose to bash Islam based on the ill-advised actions of some of it's followers. Unless of course, your purpose IS to bash Islam. In that case, I would like to stay away from this thread. If, however, you have a genuine desire to understand what Shariah is, you have to make a concerted effort to educate yourself about it. A debate would make more sense then. Also, if you want, you can PM me and I may be able to point you in the right direction to begin your research. It is you who has to make the effort, though.

megatron wrote:

you people are all wasting your time.

no one is changing their beliefs due to a 10club thread..or any thread for that matter

then why did you bother posting? do you think you're gonna convince people to stop posting?

___________ wrote:

megatron wrote:

you people are all wasting your time.

no one is changing their beliefs due to a 10club thread..or any thread for that matter

then why did you bother posting? do you think you're gonna convince people to stop posting?

i'm just frustrated by my friend who is going to school for poly sci and watches the daily show so now thinks he has all the answers. i guess i took my frustrations out here.