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Hugh Freaking Dillon · February 2011

it would if America had the same system. then Canadian doctors would have no reason to move south and the shortage wouldn't be an issue, which is really the whole problem. privatization = more money for the docs.

prfctlefts wrote:

This is why many Americans don't want universal healthcare. It doesn't work.

lukin2006 · February 2011

Paul David wrote:

it would if America had the same system. then Canadian doctors would have no reason to move south and the shortage wouldn't be an issue, which is really the whole problem. privatization = more money for the docs.

prfctlefts wrote:

This is why many Americans don't want universal healthcare. It doesn't work.

That was part of the problem at one time (doctors moving south), I think now it's not nearly as much. part of the problem was back in the late 80's the government reduced medical school space, so not as many doctors were graduating. Over the year governments have increased medical school spaces, but it how lng to become a doctor? many years. According to my doctor, many future doctors are heading into specialties and leaving a huge void in the area of primary care.

I guess there's no easy answer. Truthfully I can only judge our system, have never used the US system.

haffajappa · February 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

Paul David wrote:

it would if America had the same system. then Canadian doctors would have no reason to move south and the shortage wouldn't be an issue, which is really the whole problem. privatization = more money for the docs.

prfctlefts wrote:

This is why many Americans don't want universal healthcare. It doesn't work.

That was part of the problem at one time (doctors moving south), I think now it's not nearly as much. part of the problem was back in the late 80's the government reduced medical school space, so not as many doctors were graduating. Over the year governments have increased medical school spaces, but it how lng to become a doctor? many years. According to my doctor, many future doctors are heading into specialties and leaving a huge void in the area of primary care.

I guess there's no easy answer. Truthfully I can only judge our system, have never used the US system.

If i remember correctly a couple years back Gordon Campbell changed the amount of patients BC specialists were allowed to treat per a given time time, I think it was either per day or per month. Consequently wait times went up... ugh.

know1 · February 2011

Jasunmark wrote:

I see literally hundreds, maybe thousands of families lined up for to see a doctor. Some spend 18+ hours for 10 minutes with a doctor. Because that's their only chance for health care at all.

How do you know that it's their only chance? Maybe some of them who could otherwise find treatment somewhere else are lured by the free aspect of it and are clogging the system.

Kel Varnsen · February 2011

Paul David wrote:

it would if America had the same system. then Canadian doctors would have no reason to move south and the shortage wouldn't be an issue, which is really the whole problem. privatization = more money for the docs.

prfctlefts wrote:

This is why many Americans don't want universal healthcare. It doesn't work.

Actually from what I understand the whole idea that Canadian trained doctors are permanently moving to the US is way overblown. I think the typical thing that happens is that med school graduates move to the US to do their residencies and pay off any debt (I have both read this and heard this from people I know who are doctors). Then when they have completed their training they move back to Canada and practice there. So really while there might be a bunch of med school graduates moving to the US, most of them move back to Canada so the net loss is pretty low.

lukin2006 · February 2011

I think the trend of Canadian Docs going to the US has slowed over the last few years, but in the earl part of the 2000's that wasn't the case. I never under estimate the power and allure of money, doctors have spent a lot of time on education and want to be well compensated, as well they should be.

lukin2006 · February 2011

I don't understand why every body looks at our system as a model system, it's probably better than the states in equal access for everyone, but I would hate to think ours is the best or can't be improved upon.

Kel Varnsen · February 2011

lukin2006 wrote:

I think the trend of Canadian Docs going to the US has slowed over the last few years, but in the earl part of the 2000's that wasn't the case. I never under estimate the power and allure of money, doctors have spent a lot of time on education and want to be well compensated, as well they should be.

The lure of money is a very powerful one, but I think in a lot of cases once doctors have received their residency training and paid off education debts I think a lot of them would rather live in Canada. Plus from what I have read even though you make more money in the US, practising medecine there is a pain in the ass. I mean in Canada if you are a doctor you treat your patients as you see fit and then bill the province for your time, and everyone is on the same program. In the us if you are a doctor there is all sorts of different insurance programs people could be on with different forms and submitting requirements, plus insurance companies deciding what kind of treatments they will pay for.

lukin2006 · February 2011

Kel Varnsen wrote:

lukin2006 wrote:

I think the trend of Canadian Docs going to the US has slowed over the last few years, but in the earl part of the 2000's that wasn't the case. I never under estimate the power and allure of money, doctors have spent a lot of time on education and want to be well compensated, as well they should be.

The lure of money is a very powerful one, but I think in a lot of cases once doctors have received their residency training and paid off education debts I think a lot of them would rather live in Canada. Plus from what I have read even though you make more money in the US, practising medecine there is a pain in the ass. I mean in Canada if you are a doctor you treat your patients as you see fit and then bill the province for your time, and everyone is on the same program. In the us if you are a doctor there is all sorts of different insurance programs people could be on with different forms and submitting requirements, plus insurance companies deciding what kind of treatments they will pay for.

The problem is the government has set amount they pay for office visits etc., the doctors send in forms and are paid set fees negotiated by OMA, so its in the doctors best interest to see as many patients as possible. I have a friend who's doctor sets aside 10 minutes per patient and pretty well sticks to it.

know1 · February 2011

I've said it before and I'll say it again,

health insurance DOES NOT = health care

I firmly believe the existence and pervasiveness and dependence upon health insurance is the main reason that healthcare costs so much in the USA.

haffajappa · February 2011

know1 wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again,

health insurance DOES NOT = health care

I firmly believe the existence and pervasiveness and dependence upon health insurance is the main reason that healthcare costs so much in the USA.

this is so true.
i don't think Americans fully understand our system. many just believe what they hear on their news down there and perceive it as true. like anything else run by the government, it needs major improvement. MAJOR improvement. but moving to an American-style system is just going backwards.

lukin2006 · February 2011

haffajappa wrote:

know1 wrote:

I've said it before and I'll say it again,

health insurance DOES NOT = health care

I firmly believe the existence and pervasiveness and dependence upon health insurance is the main reason that healthcare costs so much in the USA.

this is so true.
i don't think Americans fully understand our system. many just believe what they hear on their news down there and perceive it as true. like anything else run by the government, it needs major improvement. MAJOR improvement. but moving to an American-style system is just going backwards.

I agree, except we are heading toward a US style system, here in Ontario just over the last 8 years the government has de listed chiropractor services, optometrist and physiotherapy which I consider all three of those service vital and integral parts of any health care system, so unless you got insurance from work or are well off these services remain out of reach for many.

Hugh Freaking Dillon · February 2011

well it happened to me TWICE, and to many friends and family members. it wasn't overblown to us.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Paul David wrote:

it would if America had the same system. then Canadian doctors would have no reason to move south and the shortage wouldn't be an issue, which is really the whole problem. privatization = more money for the docs.

Actually from what I understand the whole idea that Canadian trained doctors are permanently moving to the US is way overblown.

pickupyourwill · February 2011

unsung wrote:

pickupyourwill wrote:

...such a beautiful idea isn't it? It seems like it would be much more simple than America's f&%ked up health care insurances--even if you have to pay high taxes

And of course if there were someone on the fence this is the best way to convince them.

And if they didn't believe in paying for others you belittle them right off the bat so it turns into an argument instead of a quality discussion.

Why didn't you just title it "UHC haters go fuck off"?

This is true. I was talking out of anger and frustration that day--not really setting it up for a quality discussion.

I am not necessarily for U.S. health care reform either. I get to hear from my elders all the time how it would cost this country a fortune when we're already in huge debt. So I'm not looking to the gov't to help me--never really have. I'm just trying to mind my own business. Sure, they take out a cut of every paycheck I've ever had, but I guess I'm not as arrogant or as old as some others to point the finger at the government all the time. Yes, that money out of my check would be nice. Do I feel it entitles me to judge the gov't however I see fit--no. They do provide great services for me--like a tax refund, a decent, safe place to live, freedom of speech, etc.--so maybe that money is going towards the things that the gov't still keeps in effect.

lukin2006 · February 2011

pickupyourwill wrote:

unsung wrote:

pickupyourwill wrote:

...such a beautiful idea isn't it? It seems like it would be much more simple than America's f&%ked up health care insurances--even if you have to pay high taxes

And of course if there were someone on the fence this is the best way to convince them.

And if they didn't believe in paying for others you belittle them right off the bat so it turns into an argument instead of a quality discussion.

Why didn't you just title it "UHC haters go fuck off"?

This is true. I was talking out of anger and frustration that day--not really setting it up for a quality discussion.

I am not necessarily for U.S. health care reform either. I get to hear from my elders all the time how it would cost this country a fortune when we're already in huge debt. So I'm not looking to the gov't to help me--never really have. I'm just trying to mind my own business. Sure, they take out a cut of every paycheck I've ever had, but I guess I'm not as arrogant or as old as some others to point the finger at the government all the time. Yes, that money out of my check would be nice. Do I feel it entitles me to judge the gov't however I see fit--no. They do provide great services for me--like a tax refund, a decent, safe place to live, freedom of speech, etc.--so maybe that money is going towards the things that the gov't still keeps in effect.

What I don't understand is that billions or trillions were spent on 2 wars, and the US can't at least make sure those who are suffering from catastrophic illness's are taking care of. I could see leaving the insurance in place for the day to day illness and injuries, but the life threatening one's the government should be picking up the tab. Just doesn't make sense :?

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