shooting ourselves in the foot again....

gimmesometruth27 · October 2010

StillHere wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?

yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.

so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?

Godfather. · October 2010

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

StillHere wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?

yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.

so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?

I think we all believe it my question is what prompted it, not that 2 wrongs make a right but I just wonder whats really going on.

Godfather.

Commy · October 2010

StillHere wrote:

everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.

When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,

While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.

thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.

These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.

Believe it.

So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.

No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...

This is true
For
All of us

but you can look at patterns and come to conclusions, or just use your brain.

say the US lies about an invasion every couple of years. or tells the truth. say we don't know either way.

what we can be sure of is that the US is mostly at war.

say they are there to liberate. or to fight communism, or terrorism, or drugs. and say throughout all of these wars and interventions and funding and covert ops, the outcome is always the same.

we can come to a conclusion that their stated goals are not the same as their actual goals.

we con come to certain glimpses of reality, even when specifically the instances are may be murky to some.

there is a such thing as reality. it takes effort to subscribe to it, but its possible.

StillHere · October 2010

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

StillHere wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?

yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.

so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?

didn't exactly say i believed it ..don't know if i do or not
i was talking about the reports
and that i remembered it and some others like it

StillHere · October 2010

Commy wrote:

StillHere wrote:

everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.

When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,

While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.

thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.

These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.

Believe it.

So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.

No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...

This is true
For
All of us

but you can look at patterns and come to conclusions, or just use your brain.

say the US lies about an invasion every couple of years. or tells the truth. say we don't know either way.

what we can be sure of is that the US is mostly at war.

say they are there to liberate. or to fight communism, or terrorism, or drugs. and say throughout all of these wars and interventions and funding and covert ops, the outcome is always the same.

we can come to a conclusion that their stated goals are not the same as their actual goals.

we con come to certain glimpses of reality, even when specifically the instances are may be murky to some.

there is a such thing as reality. it takes effort to subscribe to it, but its possible.

i sort of agree...you can come to your own conclusions, exactly what i was saying..your own, my own, their own conclusions, but who's to say who's right and who's wrong or if any of it is ever the Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth..I doubt it, but of course we all come to our own conclusions, that's exactly the point i was trying to make so I guess generally we agree on that point.

StillHere · October 2010

OK well I do want to say one thing

These wars, whether involving the US or not, have been going on for such an indeterminable amount of time, thousands of years, we are only there as of very recent history, and I would say,and I think that most of you would agree, that for these thousands of years, all factions involved have had their own version of truth.

And within those factions, branches of government, military, civilians, religious sects, have all had varying opinions on the support of these "truths".

The BASIS for war is "disagreement".
Can we agree on that?

Matter of fact, had we all been in one room having this debate, I can easily imagine a tiny little demonstration on how wars become wars, right inside of that room.

But that's not the point I'm making.

The point is. War is disagreement on a huge scale. The disagreement pervades everyone it touches.
It is the natural progression, then, that those holding those conflicting beliefs so deeply that they will fight to the death over it, or, more accurately, send young men and women to fight to THEIR deaths over this disagreement, those parties original to the disagreement, must feel that theirs is the only truth. Meaning both sides are wrong AND both sides are right. So where is the truth.

For supporting links, for those who need them to believe, I would submit that you Google the following:

The Bible, King James
The Koran
The Torah
Bhagvad Gita
Kabbalah
Sahih Bukhari
The Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
and
CATECHISM OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

If you believe everything you read, then you should find a LOT of evidence among at least some of these.

War gets us nowhere. The above texts include so much war and death over so many thousands of years over a basic disagreements BECAUSE, precisely because, each has their own view of reality and truth.

Agree? (of course not)
I"d like to hear what is to be said about these various "reports of evidence" that each of the authoring tribes of these books holds to be the gods' honest truth.

gimmesometruth27 · October 2010

StillHere wrote:

OK well I do want to say one thing

These wars, whether involving the US or not, have been going on for such an indeterminable amount of time, thousands of years, we are only there as of very recent history, and I would say,and I think that most of you would agree, that for these thousands of years, all factions involved have had their own version of truth.

And within those factions, branches of government, military, civilians, religious sects, have all had varying opinions on the support of these "truths".

The BASIS for war is "disagreement".
Can we agree on that?

Matter of fact, had we all been in one room having this debate, I can easily imagine a tiny little demonstration on how wars become wars, right inside of that room.

But that's not the point I'm making.

The point is. War is disagreement on a huge scale. The disagreement pervades everyone it touches.
It is the natural progression, then, that those holding those conflicting beliefs so deeply that they will fight to the death over it, or, more accurately, send young men and women to fight to THEIR deaths over this disagreement, those parties original to the disagreement, must feel that theirs is the only truth. Meaning both sides are wrong AND both sides are right. So where is the truth.

For supporting links, for those who need them to believe, I would submit that you Google the following:

The Bible, King James
The Koran
The Torah
Bhagvad Gita
Kabbalah
Sahih Bukhari
The Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
and
CATECHISM OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH

If you believe everything you read, then you should find a LOT of evidence among at least some of these.

War gets us nowhere. The above texts include so much war and death over so many thousands of years over a basic disagreements BECAUSE, precisely because, each has their own view of reality and truth.

Agree? (of course not)
I"d like to hear what is to be said about these various "reports of evidence" that each of the authoring tribes of these books holds to be the gods' honest truth.

ok, i get where you are going with this, but seriously, what does any of this have to do with the story in this thread about THIS ONE EVENT that set off a chain reaction that effected many facets of the mission??? THIS PARTICULAR EVENT where the US killed pakistani soldiers, then pakistan closed the border, thus making it impossible for the US and UN to get supplies to our troops that people claim to support so much, thus endangering the convoy drivers and threatening the mission at hand? why is that so disputed when it was in black and white in worldwide media outlets??

you can look as deeply into it and analyze it from every angle but the facts are facts as admitted by the military brass. the us military does not apologize publicly for anything ever...and it did in this case. it has not even apologized for what it did to pat tillman, or any of the millions of civillians we have butchered in the last century..so why apologize now??

shooting ourselves in the foot again....

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