I'm not trying to debunk this story, I was talking to my niece over the weekend who is a Marine as is her Husband who is in Afghanistan, we were talking about media coverage and the war and I won't tell you the whole conversation but the bottom line on most stuff we read about the war is not the whole story or not the story at all, the Media loves a good drama sometimes.
Godfather.
this happened and it is a fact. and it is inexcusable. google it, there are many media outlets covering it.
please don't disagree for the sake of being a contrarian. you seem to do that in my threads a lot lately. present credible evidence that it didn't happen, not anecdotal evidence from a marine who was not there...
the same could be said for yourself. You always seem to have somthing negative to say about us military/ government regardless. your quite within your rights to do so. but then dont turn on somebody for the same right.
DO you always ensure your facts are ligit?/?
as far as me criticizing the us military, if this war was necessary and we were fighting to win it i would possibly not criticize it as much. but when we have been there for 10 years and wasted trillions of dollars and thousands of lives while we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot every other week, that military DESERVES every ounce of criticism they receive. would a surgeon still have a license if he made fatal errors every other week? no. would a district attorney still have a job if he was caught constantly trying innocent people only for the sake of getting a conviction and closing the case?? no, he would be disbarred like mike nifong in north carolina... so why should the military get a pass when they fuck up??? but that is another thread altogether...
ok yeah i am making all of this up, and so is the media :roll: :roll: :roll:
godfather tried to derail the thread implying that through his conversations with his neice that this is not the actual story, rather it was made up by the media...i am sorry, but anecdotal evidence from the relative of one marine who was not there is not as credible to me or the rest of the world when many media outlets across the world are reporting on it...the international media said there were no WMDS in iraq in the lead up to the war, while the us leadership and the majority of it's media said there was. i believed the international media, and who was right???
wow how easy it is for you to attack me on this when in the thread about soldiers who are objecting to the war and seeking refuge in canada, you provided no links, only your opinion of those "pussies".... where were the "facts" to support your position that "if you sign your name you honor your commmitment or you are a pussy"??? that was never ever writtin in any of the articles posted in that thread, it was your opinion. and i ask you the same question as i asked godfather, if it didn't happen, simply post a link suggesting that it didn't...i have posted 4 or 5 links to legitimate news sources from all over the world in this thread, are all of them making it up???? and can you provide evidence that these things did not occur? if they did not occur, then why is the border crossing still closed and why are supply convoys still being attacked and destroyed???
you were a soldier, you should understand that it is of paramount importance to the mission of the US and the UN to finish the job there, and how can they do that when the main crossing through which 40% of all of the mission supplies pass is blocked????
i will be waiting for your links to dispute that the us killed pakistani soldiers and that the border crossing is not closed for that, but for some other reason...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Godfather, I swear sometimes you just dont' want to believe anything bad about good ol' America. It's almost like a kid with his fingers in his ears going "nananananananananana, I'm not listening." I've heard stories you just wouldn't possibly accept about the atrocities of war committed by Americans, and I've heard it directly from the soldiers themselves. I work with with these people every day. My boss right next door here is a marine colonel that gets direct reports from Iraq and Afghanistan and shares these things with me (although he probably shouldn't). Shows me maps and satellite pics of military troop movement and how they surround certain towns and whatnot. Tells me stories... Your perception of things is very much one through rose tented lenses.
What's your take on the Tillman story? Just more of the media making a big deal out of things?
no.. your right I believe that the US has done some pretty bad stuff there is doubt but we are not the only ones
doing it and breaks my heart,
it also breaks my heart to read or listen to people talk so negatively about our country,as imperfect as it may be we live in the greatest country in the world,it affords us freedoms we can't get in to many other country's.
I don't know too much about the Tillman story yet.
Godfather.
i understand now what you are trying to say.
you have to understand that people don't talk negatively just because they can.
there's nothing wrong with saying i love my country because of *this* *this* and *this* and you should be proud to speak out about the good things.
there's also nothing wrong with saying but i wish they could do *this* *this* and *this* so much better, and speak out when they don't.
otherwise you are settling for second best and making compromises that you don't need to, and that's just not good enough. people have to be held accountable for their actions and know that you feel it's wrong.
:thumbup: no argument there, thanks for the kind response I also will try to respond in a kinder way in the future.
I'm not trying to debunk this story, I was talking to my niece over the weekend who is a Marine as is her Husband who is in Afghanistan, we were talking about media coverage and the war and I won't tell you the whole conversation but the bottom line on most stuff we read about the war is not the whole story or not the story at all, the Media loves a good drama sometimes.
Godfather.
this happened and it is a fact. and it is inexcusable. google it, there are many media outlets covering it.
please don't disagree for the sake of being a contrarian. you seem to do that in my threads a lot lately. present credible evidence that it didn't happen, not anecdotal evidence from a marine who was not there...
here is my OP and your reply please re read it, I diden't say it did not happen and maybe I should have been more clear, my question to all these things is why ?...could something like this or another incident be a retaliation for something like the solders that left their compound and were found dead and headless...I don't know but before I make a judgment call on a war situation I think to myself why ??...there have been so many horrible thing done by both sides that it's turned into a very horrible mess and finger pointing and guess's as to whats happening by the media only fuel the fire. I stand behind my country and yes if wrong is done I would like to see it corrected just as I would like to see the wrong committed against the US corrected.there is a guy on here that was or is a reporter, I would sure like to hear his take on this.
fact is Paskistan's not really an ally in this war, and neither is it treated like an ally... allies are countries like the UK ...we're in this war because the only choice we were given was that of either gettin involved , or gettin bombed ourselves, like Iraq / Afghanistan and the rest...
and I''m not gonna say shit like this situation, and the soldiers' deaths n all, is not fair .... cuz that shit's naive and this is war and politics and war and politics are always dirty ... always...and this is just the way it is.... but like polaris x said, we should be clear on why wars are fought... certainly not for the sake of freedom or democracy.... the world's in a mess.... and it's all ugly
ISLAMABAD – Pakistan said Saturday it will reopen a key border crossing and allow convoys to resume delivering supplies to NATO troops in Afghanistan, ending a 10-day blockade during which trucks were stranded on their way to the border and almost 150 were destroyed by attackers.
Pakistan closed the northwest crossing at Torkham on Sept. 30 in an apparent protest over a NATO helicopter incursion that killed two of its soldiers on the border.
Since the closure there have been almost daily attacks on the scores of trucks stranded on their way to Torkham from the port city of Karachi, and on those bottlenecked on the roads to a smaller crossing at Chaman in the southwest that has remained open.
Just hours before the announcement of the reopening, gunmen armed with a rocket attacked 29 tankers carrying NATO fuel supplies which had been stopped outside a roadside restaurant in southwestern Pakistan, setting them ablaze, local government official Abdul Mateen said.
It was unclear who was behind the latest attack, but the Pakistani Taliban have claimed responsibility for similar assaults on NATO supplies.
Pakistan is a key supply route for fuel, military vehicles, spare parts, clothing and other non-lethal supplies for foreign troops in landlocked Afghanistan.
Though the U.S. has said the Torkham closure has not affected its ability to keep troops supplied, the blockade raised tensions with Pakistan, with which Washington has a close but often troubled alliance in the fight against militants. It also came just as the U.S. was stepping up its shadow war on militants harbored in Pakistan's border regions.
The U.S. accuses Pakistan of being unwilling to go after Afghan Taliban militants in its territory with whom it has strong historical ties and who generally focus their attacks on Western troops.
The U.S. has dramatically increased the number of CIA drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, including two late Friday in North Waziristan that killed nine suspected militants — the seventh and eighth missile strikes this month.
In September, the U.S. is believed to have launched at least 21 such attacks, an unprecedented number and nearly all in North Waziristan. The U.S. rarely acknowledges the covert missile strike program. Pakistan officially opposes the program, but is believed to secretly support it.
The U.S. on Wednesday apologized for the helicopter strike that prompted the blockade after an investigation concluded the "tragic event could have been avoided with better coalition force coordination with the Pakistan military." Pakistan's Foreign Office then announced Saturday it had decided to reopen the crossing "with immediate effect."
The border is normally closed on Sundays, so Monday appeared to be the soonest the flow of supplies over the crossing would resume, said U.S. Embassy spokesman Richard Snelsire, who welcomed what he called a "positive development."
NATO headquarters in Kabul had no immediate comment.
The U.S. and NATO at one point sent some 80 percent of their non-lethal supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan, but have been steadily reducing that amount, instead using Central Asian routes to the north and other means. About 40 percent of supplies now come through Pakistan, 40 percent through the Central Asian routes, and 20 percent by air, according to the U.S. Embassy.
Perhaps worst affected by the Torkham closure were the truckers and Pakistani trucking companies, who are not paid until delivery and were regularly attacked while waiting for the crossing to be reopened. Some 2,500 to 3,000 trucks bringing supplies to U.S. or other NATO troops are on Pakistan's roads at any given time.
"This business is getting so dangerous — the recent happenings have made us think about not working for NATO because we can't put our lives in constant danger," said 37-year-old trucker Shaukat Khan, who has been sitting at the Torkham crossing since the day it was closed.
"We are glad to know that the Pakistani authorities have decided to reopen the crossing."
Gen. Zaman Mamozia, Afghan border commander for the eastern region where the convoys come into the country, said the opening of Torkham was important there as well.
"People in this region are busy and depend on these convoys," Mamozia said. "There are lots of drivers from supply trucks who are from eastern Afghanistan and lots of people work loading and unloading the goods. They will get their jobs back."
___
Associated Press writers Munir Ahmed and Nahal Toosi in Islamabad, Riaz Khan in Peshawar, Abdul Sattar in Quetta, and Rahim Faiez in Kabul, Afghanistan, contributed to this report.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
This is true
For
All of us
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
This is true
For
All of us
you are always our voice of reason, you rock !
Godfather.
why thank you
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?
yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?
yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.
so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?
yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.
so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?
I think we all believe it my question is what prompted it, not that 2 wrongs make a right but I just wonder whats really going on.
everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
This is true
For
All of us
but you can look at patterns and come to conclusions, or just use your brain.
say the US lies about an invasion every couple of years. or tells the truth. say we don't know either way.
what we can be sure of is that the US is mostly at war.
say they are there to liberate. or to fight communism, or terrorism, or drugs. and say throughout all of these wars and interventions and funding and covert ops, the outcome is always the same.
we can come to a conclusion that their stated goals are not the same as their actual goals.
we con come to certain glimpses of reality, even when specifically the instances are may be murky to some.
there is a such thing as reality. it takes effort to subscribe to it, but its possible.
at least we apologized...does anyone remember when the military shot down an iranian civilian airliner under reagan and vp bush said he refused to ever apologize for the us military? they even gave them fucking medals for it!! how can you accept a medal for shooting down a bunch of innocent people?
yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.
so why do you believe the news reports about that iranian plane being shot down and not what i posted in this thread?
didn't exactly say i believed it ..don't know if i do or not
i was talking about the reports
and that i remembered it and some others like it
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
everyone here, respectfully you do realize that all the "proof" and debate in the world are not going to change the opinions of others to suit your own, right? That is a given.
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
This is true
For
All of us
but you can look at patterns and come to conclusions, or just use your brain.
say the US lies about an invasion every couple of years. or tells the truth. say we don't know either way.
what we can be sure of is that the US is mostly at war.
say they are there to liberate. or to fight communism, or terrorism, or drugs. and say throughout all of these wars and interventions and funding and covert ops, the outcome is always the same.
we can come to a conclusion that their stated goals are not the same as their actual goals.
we con come to certain glimpses of reality, even when specifically the instances are may be murky to some.
there is a such thing as reality. it takes effort to subscribe to it, but its possible.
i sort of agree...you can come to your own conclusions, exactly what i was saying..your own, my own, their own conclusions, but who's to say who's right and who's wrong or if any of it is ever the Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth..I doubt it, but of course we all come to our own conclusions, that's exactly the point i was trying to make so I guess generally we agree on that point.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
These wars, whether involving the US or not, have been going on for such an indeterminable amount of time, thousands of years, we are only there as of very recent history, and I would say,and I think that most of you would agree, that for these thousands of years, all factions involved have had their own version of truth.
And within those factions, branches of government, military, civilians, religious sects, have all had varying opinions on the support of these "truths".
The BASIS for war is "disagreement".
Can we agree on that?
Matter of fact, had we all been in one room having this debate, I can easily imagine a tiny little demonstration on how wars become wars, right inside of that room.
But that's not the point I'm making.
The point is. War is disagreement on a huge scale. The disagreement pervades everyone it touches.
It is the natural progression, then, that those holding those conflicting beliefs so deeply that they will fight to the death over it, or, more accurately, send young men and women to fight to THEIR deaths over this disagreement, those parties original to the disagreement, must feel that theirs is the only truth. Meaning both sides are wrong AND both sides are right. So where is the truth.
For supporting links, for those who need them to believe, I would submit that you Google the following:
The Bible, King James
The Koran
The Torah
Bhagvad Gita
Kabbalah
Sahih Bukhari
The Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
and
CATECHISM OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
If you believe everything you read, then you should find a LOT of evidence among at least some of these.
War gets us nowhere. The above texts include so much war and death over so many thousands of years over a basic disagreements BECAUSE, precisely because, each has their own view of reality and truth.
Agree? (of course not)
I"d like to hear what is to be said about these various "reports of evidence" that each of the authoring tribes of these books holds to be the gods' honest truth.
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
These wars, whether involving the US or not, have been going on for such an indeterminable amount of time, thousands of years, we are only there as of very recent history, and I would say,and I think that most of you would agree, that for these thousands of years, all factions involved have had their own version of truth.
And within those factions, branches of government, military, civilians, religious sects, have all had varying opinions on the support of these "truths".
The BASIS for war is "disagreement".
Can we agree on that?
Matter of fact, had we all been in one room having this debate, I can easily imagine a tiny little demonstration on how wars become wars, right inside of that room.
But that's not the point I'm making.
The point is. War is disagreement on a huge scale. The disagreement pervades everyone it touches.
It is the natural progression, then, that those holding those conflicting beliefs so deeply that they will fight to the death over it, or, more accurately, send young men and women to fight to THEIR deaths over this disagreement, those parties original to the disagreement, must feel that theirs is the only truth. Meaning both sides are wrong AND both sides are right. So where is the truth.
For supporting links, for those who need them to believe, I would submit that you Google the following:
The Bible, King James
The Koran
The Torah
Bhagvad Gita
Kabbalah
Sahih Bukhari
The Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
and
CATECHISM OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
If you believe everything you read, then you should find a LOT of evidence among at least some of these.
War gets us nowhere. The above texts include so much war and death over so many thousands of years over a basic disagreements BECAUSE, precisely because, each has their own view of reality and truth.
Agree? (of course not)
I"d like to hear what is to be said about these various "reports of evidence" that each of the authoring tribes of these books holds to be the gods' honest truth.
ok, i get where you are going with this, but seriously, what does any of this have to do with the story in this thread about THIS ONE EVENT that set off a chain reaction that effected many facets of the mission??? THIS PARTICULAR EVENT where the US killed pakistani soldiers, then pakistan closed the border, thus making it impossible for the US and UN to get supplies to our troops that people claim to support so much, thus endangering the convoy drivers and threatening the mission at hand? why is that so disputed when it was in black and white in worldwide media outlets??
you can look as deeply into it and analyze it from every angle but the facts are facts as admitted by the military brass. the us military does not apologize publicly for anything ever...and it did in this case. it has not even apologized for what it did to pat tillman, or any of the millions of civillians we have butchered in the last century..so why apologize now??
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
as far as me criticizing the us military, if this war was necessary and we were fighting to win it i would possibly not criticize it as much. but when we have been there for 10 years and wasted trillions of dollars and thousands of lives while we continue to shoot ourselves in the foot every other week, that military DESERVES every ounce of criticism they receive. would a surgeon still have a license if he made fatal errors every other week? no. would a district attorney still have a job if he was caught constantly trying innocent people only for the sake of getting a conviction and closing the case?? no, he would be disbarred like mike nifong in north carolina... so why should the military get a pass when they fuck up??? but that is another thread altogether...
ok yeah i am making all of this up, and so is the media :roll: :roll: :roll:
godfather tried to derail the thread implying that through his conversations with his neice that this is not the actual story, rather it was made up by the media...i am sorry, but anecdotal evidence from the relative of one marine who was not there is not as credible to me or the rest of the world when many media outlets across the world are reporting on it...the international media said there were no WMDS in iraq in the lead up to the war, while the us leadership and the majority of it's media said there was. i believed the international media, and who was right???
wow how easy it is for you to attack me on this when in the thread about soldiers who are objecting to the war and seeking refuge in canada, you provided no links, only your opinion of those "pussies".... where were the "facts" to support your position that "if you sign your name you honor your commmitment or you are a pussy"??? that was never ever writtin in any of the articles posted in that thread, it was your opinion. and i ask you the same question as i asked godfather, if it didn't happen, simply post a link suggesting that it didn't...i have posted 4 or 5 links to legitimate news sources from all over the world in this thread, are all of them making it up???? and can you provide evidence that these things did not occur? if they did not occur, then why is the border crossing still closed and why are supply convoys still being attacked and destroyed???
you were a soldier, you should understand that it is of paramount importance to the mission of the US and the UN to finish the job there, and how can they do that when the main crossing through which 40% of all of the mission supplies pass is blocked????
i will be waiting for your links to dispute that the us killed pakistani soldiers and that the border crossing is not closed for that, but for some other reason...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Godfather.
here is my OP and your reply please re read it, I diden't say it did not happen and maybe I should have been more clear, my question to all these things is why ?...could something like this or another incident be a retaliation for something like the solders that left their compound and were found dead and headless...I don't know but before I make a judgment call on a war situation I think to myself why ??...there have been so many horrible thing done by both sides that it's turned into a very horrible mess and finger pointing and guess's as to whats happening by the media only fuel the fire. I stand behind my country and yes if wrong is done I would like to see it corrected just as I would like to see the wrong committed against the US corrected.there is a guy on here that was or is a reporter, I would sure like to hear his take on this.
Godfather.
and I''m not gonna say shit like this situation, and the soldiers' deaths n all, is not fair .... cuz that shit's naive and this is war and politics and war and politics are always dirty ... always...and this is just the way it is.... but like polaris x said, we should be clear on why wars are fought... certainly not for the sake of freedom or democracy.... the world's in a mess.... and it's all ugly
Associated Press
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101009/ap_ ... s_pakistan
ISLAMABAD – Pakistan said Saturday it will reopen a key border crossing and allow convoys to resume delivering supplies to NATO troops in Afghanistan, ending a 10-day blockade during which trucks were stranded on their way to the border and almost 150 were destroyed by attackers.
Pakistan closed the northwest crossing at Torkham on Sept. 30 in an apparent protest over a NATO helicopter incursion that killed two of its soldiers on the border.
Since the closure there have been almost daily attacks on the scores of trucks stranded on their way to Torkham from the port city of Karachi, and on those bottlenecked on the roads to a smaller crossing at Chaman in the southwest that has remained open.
Just hours before the announcement of the reopening, gunmen armed with a rocket attacked 29 tankers carrying NATO fuel supplies which had been stopped outside a roadside restaurant in southwestern Pakistan, setting them ablaze, local government official Abdul Mateen said.
It was unclear who was behind the latest attack, but the Pakistani Taliban have claimed responsibility for similar assaults on NATO supplies.
Pakistan is a key supply route for fuel, military vehicles, spare parts, clothing and other non-lethal supplies for foreign troops in landlocked Afghanistan.
Though the U.S. has said the Torkham closure has not affected its ability to keep troops supplied, the blockade raised tensions with Pakistan, with which Washington has a close but often troubled alliance in the fight against militants. It also came just as the U.S. was stepping up its shadow war on militants harbored in Pakistan's border regions.
The U.S. accuses Pakistan of being unwilling to go after Afghan Taliban militants in its territory with whom it has strong historical ties and who generally focus their attacks on Western troops.
The U.S. has dramatically increased the number of CIA drone strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, including two late Friday in North Waziristan that killed nine suspected militants — the seventh and eighth missile strikes this month.
In September, the U.S. is believed to have launched at least 21 such attacks, an unprecedented number and nearly all in North Waziristan. The U.S. rarely acknowledges the covert missile strike program. Pakistan officially opposes the program, but is believed to secretly support it.
The U.S. on Wednesday apologized for the helicopter strike that prompted the blockade after an investigation concluded the "tragic event could have been avoided with better coalition force coordination with the Pakistan military." Pakistan's Foreign Office then announced Saturday it had decided to reopen the crossing "with immediate effect."
The border is normally closed on Sundays, so Monday appeared to be the soonest the flow of supplies over the crossing would resume, said U.S. Embassy spokesman Richard Snelsire, who welcomed what he called a "positive development."
NATO headquarters in Kabul had no immediate comment.
The U.S. and NATO at one point sent some 80 percent of their non-lethal supplies through Pakistan into Afghanistan, but have been steadily reducing that amount, instead using Central Asian routes to the north and other means. About 40 percent of supplies now come through Pakistan, 40 percent through the Central Asian routes, and 20 percent by air, according to the U.S. Embassy.
Perhaps worst affected by the Torkham closure were the truckers and Pakistani trucking companies, who are not paid until delivery and were regularly attacked while waiting for the crossing to be reopened. Some 2,500 to 3,000 trucks bringing supplies to U.S. or other NATO troops are on Pakistan's roads at any given time.
"This business is getting so dangerous — the recent happenings have made us think about not working for NATO because we can't put our lives in constant danger," said 37-year-old trucker Shaukat Khan, who has been sitting at the Torkham crossing since the day it was closed.
"We are glad to know that the Pakistani authorities have decided to reopen the crossing."
Gen. Zaman Mamozia, Afghan border commander for the eastern region where the convoys come into the country, said the opening of Torkham was important there as well.
"People in this region are busy and depend on these convoys," Mamozia said. "There are lots of drivers from supply trucks who are from eastern Afghanistan and lots of people work loading and unloading the goods. They will get their jobs back."
___
Associated Press writers Munir Ahmed and Nahal Toosi in Islamabad, Riaz Khan in Peshawar, Abdul Sattar in Quetta, and Rahim Faiez in Kabul, Afghanistan, contributed to this report.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
When it comes to patriotism, right or wrong, some idealists want to believe their government and those responsible for telling us "the truth" can do no wrong,
While others, realists, or not, want to get at the bottom of this so-called TRUTH.
thing is, as mentioned before, in this world of overload, half-truths, partial truths, and outright lies, government sponsored media (no matter how independent they think they are), the TRUTH is so subjective as to be moot in debate.
These many media-Links, photos, reports by word of mouth, even being there yourself, are not reliable indicators of the WHOLE Truth....eyewitnesses to events, civil or military are never 100% reliable, just ask anyone who's witnessed a simple traffic accident. Incidents that occur a world away (it seems) whether witnessed by civilians, military, the press, and related by residents, observers or perpetrators, and reported by any or all of these "witnesses"...are even more difficult to realize the actual truths in. Everyone has an agenda, whether internalized subconsciously or realized outwardly, and that agenda, that perception, colors all that we see and hear.
Believe it.
So, in the end, everyone has the correct answer, the correct opinion (if there is such a thing) and has made the correct observation, from their own perception of that particular truth.
No one is right
No one is wrong
There is no clear view
No one sees through
In the end
Our world is perceived through colored lenses...
This is true
For
All of us
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
you are always our voice of reason, you rock !
Godfather.
why thank you
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
yep...see?
and that's not the only time.
no time to elaborate now...will be back later...but look it up if u don't recall before i get back.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I think we all believe it my question is what prompted it, not that 2 wrongs make a right but I just wonder whats really going on.
Godfather.
but you can look at patterns and come to conclusions, or just use your brain.
say the US lies about an invasion every couple of years. or tells the truth. say we don't know either way.
what we can be sure of is that the US is mostly at war.
say they are there to liberate. or to fight communism, or terrorism, or drugs. and say throughout all of these wars and interventions and funding and covert ops, the outcome is always the same.
we can come to a conclusion that their stated goals are not the same as their actual goals.
we con come to certain glimpses of reality, even when specifically the instances are may be murky to some.
there is a such thing as reality. it takes effort to subscribe to it, but its possible.
didn't exactly say i believed it ..don't know if i do or not
i was talking about the reports
and that i remembered it and some others like it
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
i sort of agree...you can come to your own conclusions, exactly what i was saying..your own, my own, their own conclusions, but who's to say who's right and who's wrong or if any of it is ever the Whole Truth and Nothing But The Truth..I doubt it, but of course we all come to our own conclusions, that's exactly the point i was trying to make so I guess generally we agree on that point.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
These wars, whether involving the US or not, have been going on for such an indeterminable amount of time, thousands of years, we are only there as of very recent history, and I would say,and I think that most of you would agree, that for these thousands of years, all factions involved have had their own version of truth.
And within those factions, branches of government, military, civilians, religious sects, have all had varying opinions on the support of these "truths".
The BASIS for war is "disagreement".
Can we agree on that?
Matter of fact, had we all been in one room having this debate, I can easily imagine a tiny little demonstration on how wars become wars, right inside of that room.
But that's not the point I'm making.
The point is. War is disagreement on a huge scale. The disagreement pervades everyone it touches.
It is the natural progression, then, that those holding those conflicting beliefs so deeply that they will fight to the death over it, or, more accurately, send young men and women to fight to THEIR deaths over this disagreement, those parties original to the disagreement, must feel that theirs is the only truth. Meaning both sides are wrong AND both sides are right. So where is the truth.
For supporting links, for those who need them to believe, I would submit that you Google the following:
The Bible, King James
The Koran
The Torah
Bhagvad Gita
Kabbalah
Sahih Bukhari
The Egyptian Book of the Dead
The Tibetan Book of the Dead
and
CATECHISM OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH
If you believe everything you read, then you should find a LOT of evidence among at least some of these.
War gets us nowhere. The above texts include so much war and death over so many thousands of years over a basic disagreements BECAUSE, precisely because, each has their own view of reality and truth.
Agree? (of course not)
I"d like to hear what is to be said about these various "reports of evidence" that each of the authoring tribes of these books holds to be the gods' honest truth.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
you can look as deeply into it and analyze it from every angle but the facts are facts as admitted by the military brass. the us military does not apologize publicly for anything ever...and it did in this case. it has not even apologized for what it did to pat tillman, or any of the millions of civillians we have butchered in the last century..so why apologize now??
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."