shooting ourselves in the foot again....
gimmesometruth27
St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 23,303
seriously, when are we going to learn that our helicopters raining missiles down on anything that moves all willy nilly will eventually have negative effects on the war effort as a whole?? we mistakenly killed 2 pakistani soldiers, now the main pakistan/afghanistan border crossing is closed, thus leaving supply trucks to be sitting ducks for attack. nice work....
i particularly like the part where admiral mullen said "Please know that the families of the soldiers in this tragic incident are in our constant thoughts and prayers".....probably the most bullshit fake apology i have ever read. as if anyone other than the families are constantly thinking about those that were killed. it is just lip service. i am sure mullen just went on to his next daily activity after writing that apology....everyone knows that none of the military brass are concerned about those pakistani soldiers, and if they were insurgents, there would not have been a second thought either...
Pakistan doesn't reopen border despite US apology
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101007/ap_ ... s_pakistan
ISLAMABAD – Pakistan said Thursday it has not decided when to reopen a key border crossing NATO uses to ship supplies to Afghanistan despite a U.S. apology for a helicopter attack that killed two Pakistani soldiers.
A suspected U.S. missile strike, meanwhile, killed three people in a northwestern Pakistan tribal region along the border, the latest in a surge of such attacks on militant strongholds, intelligence officials said.
Both the U.S. and NATO expressed their condolences Wednesday for the Sept. 30 attack and said American helicopters mistook the Pakistani soldiers for insurgents being pursued across the border from Afghanistan.
The apologies raised expectations that the Torkham border crossing along the famed Khyber Pass could reopen very soon. But Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said at a news conference Thursday that authorities were still evaluating the situation and would make a decision "in due course."
The delay could be short-lived since U.S. and Pakistani officials predicted the border crossing would be reopened in a matter of days even before the apologies were issued.
Pakistan closed Torkham to NATO supply convoys on the same day as the attack, leaving hundreds of trucks stranded alongside the country's highways or stuck in traffic on the way to the one route into Afghanistan from the south that has remained open.
Suspected militants have taken advantage of the impasse to attack stranded or rerouted trucks. Gunmen torched 70 fuel tankers and killed a driver in two attacks Wednesday.
The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Anne Patterson, said in a statement Wednesday that "we extend our deepest apology to Pakistan and the families of the Frontier Scouts who were killed and injured."
The U.S. and NATO issued apologies after their investigation found that the Pakistani soldiers fired at the two U.S. helicopters prior to the attack, likely trying to notify the aircraft of their presence after the helicopters entered Pakistani airspace several times.
The head of the investigation — U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Tim Zadalis, NATO's director for air plans in Afghanistan — said the "tragic event" could have been avoided with better coordination with the Pakistani military.
Both the head of NATO forces in Afghanistan, Gen. David Petraeus, and the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, pledged to work with Pakistan to make sure it doesn't happen again.
"Please know that the families of the soldiers in this tragic incident are in our constant thoughts and prayers," Mullen wrote in a letter he sent to the head of the Pakistani army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
NATO officials have insisted the border closure has not caused supply problems for troops since hundreds of trucks still enter Afghanistan each day through the Chaman crossing in southwestern Pakistan and via Central Asian states.
But reopening Torkham is definitely a priority for NATO because it is the main crossing in Pakistan, the country through which NATO ships the majority of its supplies into Afghanistan. Other routes are more expensive and logistically difficult.
Despite the border tensions, the U.S. has kept up its missile strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, where several militant groups are based.
The one Thursday targeted a vehicle in a thickly forested area near the town of Mir Ali in the North Waziristan tribal region, two Pakistani intelligence officials said.
The identities of the dead were not immediately known, but the territory is believed to be controlled by Pakistani Taliban militants.
The strike Thursday would be the sixth suspected missile attack this month, keeping up a recent surge in such CIA-run, drone-fired attacks. In September, the U.S. is believed to have launched at least 21 such attacks, an unprecedented number and nearly all in North Waziristan.
The two officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
The U.S. rarely acknowledges the covert missile strike program. Pakistan officially opposes the program, but is believed to secretly support it.
i particularly like the part where admiral mullen said "Please know that the families of the soldiers in this tragic incident are in our constant thoughts and prayers".....probably the most bullshit fake apology i have ever read. as if anyone other than the families are constantly thinking about those that were killed. it is just lip service. i am sure mullen just went on to his next daily activity after writing that apology....everyone knows that none of the military brass are concerned about those pakistani soldiers, and if they were insurgents, there would not have been a second thought either...
Pakistan doesn't reopen border despite US apology
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101007/ap_ ... s_pakistan
ISLAMABAD – Pakistan said Thursday it has not decided when to reopen a key border crossing NATO uses to ship supplies to Afghanistan despite a U.S. apology for a helicopter attack that killed two Pakistani soldiers.
A suspected U.S. missile strike, meanwhile, killed three people in a northwestern Pakistan tribal region along the border, the latest in a surge of such attacks on militant strongholds, intelligence officials said.
Both the U.S. and NATO expressed their condolences Wednesday for the Sept. 30 attack and said American helicopters mistook the Pakistani soldiers for insurgents being pursued across the border from Afghanistan.
The apologies raised expectations that the Torkham border crossing along the famed Khyber Pass could reopen very soon. But Pakistan Foreign Ministry spokesman Abdul Basit said at a news conference Thursday that authorities were still evaluating the situation and would make a decision "in due course."
The delay could be short-lived since U.S. and Pakistani officials predicted the border crossing would be reopened in a matter of days even before the apologies were issued.
Pakistan closed Torkham to NATO supply convoys on the same day as the attack, leaving hundreds of trucks stranded alongside the country's highways or stuck in traffic on the way to the one route into Afghanistan from the south that has remained open.
Suspected militants have taken advantage of the impasse to attack stranded or rerouted trucks. Gunmen torched 70 fuel tankers and killed a driver in two attacks Wednesday.
The U.S. ambassador to Pakistan, Anne Patterson, said in a statement Wednesday that "we extend our deepest apology to Pakistan and the families of the Frontier Scouts who were killed and injured."
The U.S. and NATO issued apologies after their investigation found that the Pakistani soldiers fired at the two U.S. helicopters prior to the attack, likely trying to notify the aircraft of their presence after the helicopters entered Pakistani airspace several times.
The head of the investigation — U.S. Air Force Brig. Gen. Tim Zadalis, NATO's director for air plans in Afghanistan — said the "tragic event" could have been avoided with better coordination with the Pakistani military.
Both the head of NATO forces in Afghanistan, Gen. David Petraeus, and the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, pledged to work with Pakistan to make sure it doesn't happen again.
"Please know that the families of the soldiers in this tragic incident are in our constant thoughts and prayers," Mullen wrote in a letter he sent to the head of the Pakistani army, Gen. Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.
NATO officials have insisted the border closure has not caused supply problems for troops since hundreds of trucks still enter Afghanistan each day through the Chaman crossing in southwestern Pakistan and via Central Asian states.
But reopening Torkham is definitely a priority for NATO because it is the main crossing in Pakistan, the country through which NATO ships the majority of its supplies into Afghanistan. Other routes are more expensive and logistically difficult.
Despite the border tensions, the U.S. has kept up its missile strikes in Pakistan's tribal belt, where several militant groups are based.
The one Thursday targeted a vehicle in a thickly forested area near the town of Mir Ali in the North Waziristan tribal region, two Pakistani intelligence officials said.
The identities of the dead were not immediately known, but the territory is believed to be controlled by Pakistani Taliban militants.
The strike Thursday would be the sixth suspected missile attack this month, keeping up a recent surge in such CIA-run, drone-fired attacks. In September, the U.S. is believed to have launched at least 21 such attacks, an unprecedented number and nearly all in North Waziristan.
The two officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk to the media.
The U.S. rarely acknowledges the covert missile strike program. Pakistan officially opposes the program, but is believed to secretly support it.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
edit: but hey ... making someone pay $75 for fire service is cool ...
Godfather.
please don't disagree for the sake of being a contrarian. you seem to do that in my threads a lot lately. present credible evidence that it didn't happen, not anecdotal evidence from a marine who was not there...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
understood & agreed
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I can only say what I have gut feeling about and what I have been told from people that have been there....
but thats cool I understand your stance on this and will not debate you on this anymore.
Btw I have some friends and family that have been there and they tell me another story about some of the stuff the media puts out and you might be surprised.
Godfather.
Not to say that certain things do not happen...of course they do. War is messy business for those actually on the ground, albeit a golden opportunity for those sponsoring and arming the factions involved.
Fair and non-biased media is practically an oxymoron.
I'd say there's an iota of truth to both sides, exacerbated and exaggerated by the agenda at hand for each of the involved parties.
What say you?
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
if this did not happen, then why would pakistan, our "ally in the war on terror" close off the main border crossing to the us and nato? and if it did not happen, why would the US joint chiefs of staff and general patreaus be forced to admit the mistake or even apologize for it? the fact is we murdered 2 pakistani soldiers with rockets from US helicopters, now the border crossing is closed, and the supply lines have been attacked and some of them set on fire. where is there bias in any of that? why would the media make this up? the bottom line is the border is closed and we have nobody to blame but ourselves for our reckless actions...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i read your post
its very convincing
however, you do understand that regardless of what's in the press, regardless of what is reported by troops, generals, our relatives, citizens of those invaded states, etc...
that
YOU and I
Do Not
Have Not
and most likely
Never Will
Know The TRUTH....
I imagine that's why your SN is GimmeSomeTruth* right? (other than the obvious PJ reference
State Secrets are State Secrets for a reason, and that Main Reason, is that our government, does NOT want us to have the truth.
We can debate about whether or not these particular events occurred or not, (and likely they did) until we turn blue in the face, but unless you are the leader of these nations, including ours, and maybe its' necessary to even be higher than that (after all "leaders" are bought and sold everyday,right?), you (and by you I mean the collective 'You" "we" "us") will NEVER know the absolute truth. And what is absolute truth anyway? I submit that absolute truth does not exist, as it is subjective to perceptions of the owner of that particular truth.
That's all I'm saying.
Yes, we shoot ourselves in the foot, is is our nature...we won't learn. It goes against human nature to learn from our mistakes, you see? At least humans as a species..perhaps not you, perhaps not most of us here, but humans as a species, obviously do not learn from mistakes. Just look around.
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Seems to me that if you are in a war zone and see a patrol/attack helicopter, shooting at them may not be the best way to get their attention...
all this adds up to a horribe accident and I cannot wait for it to be over. I get sick to my stomach every time my cousin goes over until he gets back. Hopefully there is some truth to the taliban and the afghan gov't getting together and ending this thing so we can leave.
i just really wish we would let tribal regions throughout the world just simply figure out for themselves how things are going to be. Fighting terrorism is a losing battle, you can try and fight it but it will never go away because I am not sure it truly exists in the form the government is fighting. We just have to figure out that the whole world may not want democracy and we should just focus on preserving ours.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
what americans have to TRULY realize is ... that these wars aren't fought because of democracy, human rights or freedoms ... they are fought strictly for profiteering and economic imperialism ... but that would only lead to a more painful truth ...
now, there ya go~ finally some truth!
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
you are partially correct, i took my screen name because when i was a little kid, like 4 or 5 my mom used to play lennon's gimme some truth a lot and it was allegedly the first song i ever tried to sing along with, i remember liking the "no short haird yellow bellied..etc " part about it and butchering the words or making up words that sounded similar and bouncing around the house when it was on the record player. when ed covered it it brought back those memories. and yes i do seek the truth, so i used that is my name. why do you think i call bullshit out when people post it? and what happened in this instance is not a state secret. covert operations and black ops are state secrets. this was a military action in a known hostile environment and we missiled 2 allies by mistake. it happens all the time, but we need to be more careful about who we are murdering. this border closing is hurting the cause by not allowing supplies to get to our bases and our troops.
and no i don't learn from mistakes all of the time. i have quite a few i wish like hell i could take back, and if i learned from them i would stop repeating them.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i agree with this post. the only way to win a war on terror, a tactic, is not to start one. you can not defeat a ideology or tactic of that ideology that people use. that would be like declaring a war on jealousy, or a war on ignorance. we should have let the tribes figure it out. it has been that way for a couple of thousand years, there is no way they will change now, not for us, not for anyone.
the only reason karzi is negotiating with the taliban now is because he is afraid what happened tomohammed daoud khan might happen to him...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Daoud_Khan
"Communist coup and assassination
The April 19, 1978, funeral of Mir Akbar Khyber, the prominent Parchami ideologue who had been murdered, served as a rallying point for the Afghan communists. An estimated 1,000 to 3,000 persons[6] gathered to hear the stirring speeches by PDPA leaders such as Nur Muhammad Taraki, Hafizullah Amin and Babrak Karmal.
Shocked by this demonstration of communist unity, Daoud ordered the arrest of the PDPA leaders, but he reacted too slowly. It took him a week to arrest Taraki, Karmal managed to escape to the USSR, and Amin was merely placed under house arrest. According to PDPA documents, Amin sent complete orders for the coup from his home while it was under armed guard using his family as messengers.
The army had been put on alert on April 26 because of a presumed "anti-Islamic" coup. On April 27, 1978, a coup d'état beginning with troop movements at the military base at Kabul International Airport, gained ground slowly over the next twenty-four hours as rebels battled units loyal to Daud Khan in and around the capital.
Daoud and most of his family were shot in the presidential palace the following day.[7] His death was not publicly announced after the coup. Instead, the new government declared that President Daoud had "resigned for health reasons." {In 1979 Taraki was killed by Amin, who, in turn, was killed by the KGB; Karmal died in 1996 of cancer in Moscow}.
On June 28, 2008, the body of President Daoud and those of his family were found in two separate mass graves in the Pul-e-Charkhi area, District 12 of Kabul city. Initial reports indicate that sixteen corpses were in one grave and twelve others were in the second. (Source: Azadi Radio/BBC News). On December 4, 2008, the Afghan Health Ministry announced that the body of Daoud had been identified on the basis of teeth moulds and a small golden Quran found near the body. The Quran was a present he had received from the king of Saudi Arabia.[8] On March 17, 2009 Daoud was given a state funeral.[9"
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
unfortunately polaris_x is right.
they are fought because the US Governments actions are ultimately motivated by greed and the insatiable lust for power.
and if you think they aren't motived by greed and the lust of power, think about the $60 Billion Saudi Arms Deal announced a few weeks ago. announced the same time that record numbers of Americans without health Insurance was divulged. over fifty million. disgusting. but yeah lets give 60 billion to the Saudis.
and if your house catches on fire and you haven't paid your $75 bill, well screw you. burn baby burn.
the Government doesn't give a shit about anything other than building the empire.
I wish repubs would quit going on gut feelings.
When facts get in the way they go back to the gut feeling.
something you saw about the government or military on a google search ?
or on the news ? come on man think for your self and ask your self why.
Godfather.
what do you mean by ask yourself why? i don't get it? what are you actually referring to?
no disrespect meant.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us ... d_day.html
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2010/09/ ... 76396.html
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8098057
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
after talking with Friends and family learning what the media says and what really happens I have to ask my self why because what the media reports doesn't make any sense and makes these said actions sound out of control
and why would anybody do such things ?, I'm not trying to discredit anybodies post here but it just makes me think what is really going on and why (about news reports) , it's hard for me to trust the media.. have you ever been interviewed by a t.v station and when you got home and watched it they have chopped it up and distorted the meaning of your statement, odd as something as trivial as that always made me wonder what else do they do on a real significant story to keep the viewers and readers following a story.
Godfather.
like maybe a only half the truth of the story in some cases.
heres a example http://politics.blogs.foxnews.com/2010/ ... fund-enemy
I know you guys don't trust FOX so how much of this story makes sense to you and do you believe the whole story ?
Godfather.
What's your take on the Tillman story? Just more of the media making a big deal out of things?
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I don't care why he is doing it, I am just glad he is. Like I said, the more we get out the better it is for us in the long run. We need to re-think our membership in things like NATO as well.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
no.. your right I believe that the US has done some pretty bad stuff there is doubt but we are not the only ones
doing it and breaks my heart,
it also breaks my heart to read or listen to people talk so negatively about our country,as imperfect as it may be we live in the greatest country in the world,it affords us freedoms we can't get in to many other country's.
I don't know too much about the Tillman story yet.
Godfather.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
i think you get some sort of amusement by being a contrarian and derailing threads...you have made no reference to the facts in the case, or the articles posted, rather you divert attention and blame the media and ignore the facts because you don't trust the media...and you use anecdotal evidence from a relative that obviously was not there when that attack and subsequent border closing occurred..
like a poster above said, it is a good story up until pesky facts get in the way...or something like that...
and yes, i have been interviewed on tv when my band played a benefit for hurricane katrina victims where we raised about 10 grand and donated it to the red cross. i was interviewed backstage for about 15 minutes and they put a 20 second snippet of me on tv. how can you cram entire interviews into a 30 minute news program? things have to be edited due to time constraints, and they try to take the best and most relevent part and use that. if this was a 24 hour news show like fox news, there is no reason why they could not show more of an intherview....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
you have to understand that people don't talk negatively just because they can.
there's nothing wrong with saying i love my country because of *this* *this* and *this* and you should be proud to speak out about the good things.
there's also nothing wrong with saying but i wish they could do *this* *this* and *this* so much better, and speak out when they don't.
otherwise you are settling for second best and making compromises that you don't need to, and that's just not good enough. people have to be held accountable for their actions and know that you feel it's wrong.
your right T/A thank you for the reply.
Godfather.
media is an arm of the state. it serves the corporations that own it and the federal government. and i can prove that.
there is a check on it tho -the internet. if they stop reporting the facts, at some point people will look elsewhere for their news, to the bbc, to name one.
if there is any doubt as to the medi'as intention, look at their reaction leading up to the invasion of iraq. something like 1% of guests interviewed in the 3 months leading up to the iraq war actually opposed the war. that is criminal
we were lied into a war and thousands, tens of thousands of innocent people have been killed due to that negligence, that obedience.
today, if they were truly a free press, we would have stories about the victims, as they did with 9.11 victims, where page after page was spent humanizing the dead. 9.11 has happened in afghanistan, in iraq, on scales that are hard to calculate, dozens of 9.11s at the least. yet the media pays the victims no mind.
because they aren't about to show their masters in a negative light. they are obedient, scum. you talk about thinking for yourself, yeah, good idea, but these lapdogs, it is their job to report the truth, and they are obedient, human garbage.
you are right not to trust the media, but your reasons are all wrong.
not to derail the thread.......
attacking the pakistanis was inevitable, these accidents they are always so sorry are inevitable, as such they cannot truly be called accidents. it like when israel drops bombs on gaza, and calls the cifvilian casualties "collateral" because they were aiming for fighters. well, going into that war, they know there are going to be innocent casualties, they are inevitable. as such, it is inaccurate to call them accidents, they are inevitablities, on a moral scale right there with the suicide bombers.
Gunmen in Pakistan torch nearly 30 NATO fuel tankers
Attacks continue as Khyber Pass border crossing remains closed
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39587242/ns ... tral_asia/
QUETTA, Pakistan — Gunmen in southwestern Pakistan set fire to nearly 30 tankers carrying fuel for NATO troops in Afghanistan on Saturday, an official said.
The attack came two days after the United States apologized to Pakistan for an air raid that killed two Pakistani soldiers and which led Pakistan to close the famous Khyber Pass border crossing.
Suspected Islamist militants have stepped up attacks on convoys carrying supplies for NATO forces since the Sept. 30 NATO air strike in northwestern Pakistan, which was described by the U.S. ambassador as a terrible accident.
About 20 gunmen set fire to around 30 tankers parked outside at a roadside restaurant near the southwestern town of Sibi, about 120 miles east of Quetta, the capital of Baluchistan province, in a pre-dawn attack, the official said.
The tankers were on their way to the border town of Chaman, where the crossing remains open.
"The attackers first fired shots and then fired small rockets at the tankers. Twenty-eight to 29 tankers caught fire," local government official Naeem Sherwani told Reuters. He said one of the paramilitary soldiers escorting the convoy was wounded.
"We are facing problems in extinguishing the fire," another official, Abdul Mateen, said.
Tankers targeted
Since Pakistan shuttered the border at Torkham, there have been several attacks on supply convoys, including two in which militants torched 70 fuel tankers and killed a driver.
The Pakistani Taliban have claimed responsibility for such previous attacks and have demanded that the government permanently bar NATO and the U.S. from using its soil to transport supplies to Afghanistan.
The U.S.-backed Pakistani government is battling Taliban insurgents who remain effective despite military crackdowns on their strongholds in the northwest near the Afghan border.
The U.S. apology for the Sept. 30 cross-border raid had raised the hopes that Pakistan would reopen a vital supply route in the northwest for coalition forces which Islamabad shut after the NATO strike, citing security reasons.
The supply route passing through southwestern Pakistan and Chaman has remained open.
Pakistan's foreign ministry said after the U.S. apology that security was being evaluated and a decision on reopening the supply route through the famous Khyber Pass would be taken "in due course," but also emphasized Washington and Islamabad were "allies in the fight against militancy."
Trucking routes through Pakistan bring in around 40 percent of supplies for NATO forces in Afghanistan, according to the United States Transportation Command. Of the remainder, 40 percent come through Afghanistan's neighbors in the north and 20 percent by air.
The United States has been pressing Pakistan to take a harder line against militants launching cross-border attacks from their Pakistani safe havens on Western forces in Afghanistan.
An alleged al-Qaida plot to attack European targets has put Pakistan's performance against militants under further scrutiny.
The United States has also stepped up missile strikes against al-Qaida and Taliban militants by pilot-less drones in Pakistan's lawless northwestern border regions in recent weeks.
On Friday night, at least five militants were killed in the latest such strike in the North Waziristan tribal region.
Militants set fire to nearly 30 tankers in Baluchistan Province Saturday, a day after truck driver Haji Kareem Jan saw his vehicle set ablaze on the GT road in Nowshera in Pakistan's Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
DO you always ensure your facts are ligit?/?