do humans have value?

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  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Animals don't value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life,?
    They may not but we, as humans, put a value on their lives and they are a benchmark (amongst many) for when we assess the value of the human.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    ed243421 wrote:
    g.

    can you tell me the secret of which god is the right one?

    it's no secret read your Bible.

    Godfather.
  • ed243421
    ed243421 Posts: 7,730
    Godfather. wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    g.

    can you tell me the secret of which god is the right one?

    it's no secret read your Bible.

    Godfather.

    i only read non-fiction

    but, really, it must have taken you a long time to research all the information gathered throughout centuries, studying the thousands of religions and gods, to select that one and live your life based on that story.

    how did you do it?
    The whole world will be different soon... - EV
    RED ROCKS 6-19-95
    AUGUSTA 9-26-96
    MANSFIELD 9-15-98
    BOSTON 9-29-04
    BOSTON 5-25-06
    MANSFIELD 6-30-08
    EV SOLO BOSTON 8-01-08
    BOSTON 5-17-10
    EV SOLO BOSTON 6-16-11
    PJ20 9-3-11
    PJ20 9-4-11
    WRIGLEY 7-19-13
    WORCESTER 10-15-13
    WORCESTER 10-16-13
    HARTFORD 10-25-13









  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I think you have something very misunderstood. I think most recognize your point, but also recognize the flip side of that argument which is recognition of what we humans do in the world to one another, the way we run our world, use the environment and treat animals and similar. You just seem to focus on the first portion without taking into account the second, where as others think the first part is negated/limited by the second.. Yes humans have more intellect and abilities to do more, but with that is the understanding of what we actually practice with it.
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Ive said it once already and ill say it again - "You are describing issues in mankinds society and trying to identify it with an animals society who's whole purpose is to survive, you can't compare an animals primitive society to ours". Animals don't value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life, what they do is based on instinct and survival, and when they do something humans like to put a human emotion or tag on what they do. I don't understand the few that are bashing humanity for surviving (by using the earths resources) but yet if we witnessed an animal do the things we do we would recognize it as how inteligent they are. I don't know why some of you can't grasp the concept that what we are doing is part of our nature, we just attached morals to everything we do. For those saying the earth is not here for us, I understand that but where do you draw the line in terms of using the resources and destroying ecosystems? Building a house is destroying a house for some other species, same is walking on the grass you are destroying lives of alphids... Where does it end. Since when is survival about being nice?
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I love how you're always so cut and dry with the god comment. My favorite color is blue, it's the only color anyone should like.
    Godfather. wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    g.

    can you tell me the secret of which god is the right one?

    it's no secret read your Bible.

    Godfather.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    soon as Gods name is mentioned the attacks come, what are you two affraid of ?
    as I have said before "believe as you will".

    Godfather.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I do not nor never complain about someone's right to believe what they want, but you state it such a concrete and almost insulting manner, so that's why I comment about it. Absolute truths are neither absolute nor true :D
    Godfather. wrote:
    soon as Gods name is mentioned the attacks come, what are you two affraid of ?
    as I have said before "believe as you will".

    Godfather.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I do not nor never complain about someone's right to believe what they want, but you state it such a concrete and almost insulting manner, so that's why I comment about it. Absolute truths are neither absolute nor true :D
    Godfather. wrote:
    soon as Gods name is mentioned the attacks come, what are you two affraid of ?
    as I have said before "believe as you will".

    Godfather.

    no problem here man, I diden't mean to offend.

    Godfather.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Ive said it once already and ill say it again - "You are describing issues in mankinds society and trying to identify it with an animals society who's whole purpose is to survive, you can't compare an animals primitive society to ours". Animals don't value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life, what they do is based on instinct and survival, and when they do something humans like to put a human emotion or tag on what they do. I don't understand the few that are bashing humanity for surviving (by using the earths resources) but yet if we witnessed an animal do the things we do we would recognize it as how inteligent they are. I don't know why some of you can't grasp the concept that what we are doing is part of our nature, we just attached morals to everything we do. For those saying the earth is not here for us, I understand that but where do you draw the line in terms of using the resources and destroying ecosystems? Building a house is destroying a house for some other species, same is walking on the grass you are destroying lives of alphids... Where does it end. Since when is survival about being nice?

    You act like we have to either destroy the whole ecosystem or never use any resources at all. I think the whole point is that we should at least do our very best to use resources in the most balanced, sustainable way possible. Do you think we're already doing this?
  • Boxes&Books
    Boxes&Books USA Posts: 2,672
    Godfather. wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    g.

    can you tell me the secret of which god is the right one?

    it's no secret read your Bible.

    Godfather.


    Godfather,
    what does your bible teach you?
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    tonifig8 wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:
    ed243421 wrote:
    g.

    can you tell me the secret of which god is the right one?

    it's no secret read your Bible.

    Godfather.


    Godfather,
    what does your bible teach you?

    read it and find out brother, I am not a perfect person by any means but I have accepted God into my heart and I try to be the best person that I can be, I pray almost every day and ask questions and most times with God in your heart you'll find answers aside from that it's the best history book in the world, but if you ask just to stirr up crap please don't, what is your faith ?

    Godfather.
  • Boxes&Books
    Boxes&Books USA Posts: 2,672
    Godfather. wrote:

    Godfather,
    what does your bible teach you?

    read it and find out brother, I am not a perfect person by any means but I have accepted God into my heart and I try to be the best person that I can be, I pray almost every day and ask questions and most times with God in your heart you'll find answers aside from that it's the best history book in the world, but if you ask just to stirr up crap please don't, what is your faith ?

    Godfather.

    I believe Jesus Christ died for our sins .... Your far from perfect....
    I just don't understand people like you .. people like unsung...or Ariel... How can you and I be Christians yet be so different....... If you really love God, then why don't you allow him in your life .... pray for knowledge, for peace, strength, for your common man, etc..etc... I have very conservative relatives and I don't understand them either....we both love the same God, but one takes extreme positions and the other asks himself what would Jesus do? If you do read the bible and believe Jesus to be your savior ask yourself that question when making judgments or taking positions.... Don't put your country or anything before God....put your brothers/sisters and God before anything....make that sacrifice and you should be able to figure out right from wrong.... There is more to life then right and left...
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    dpmay wrote:
    FiveB247x wrote:
    And what specifically are the greatest human accomplishments?

    dpmay wrote:
    i agree, animals are not really capable of the greatest of human shortcomings. but, i believe, neither are animals capable of the greatest human accomplishments.


    creative artistic expression, global social justice movements, philosophical discourse, questioning and seeking, charity, hope...

    humans aren't perfect, but i believe they are certainly capable of great good.

    ooh, i thought of some more:

    kaleidoscopes
    mathematics
    baseball
    toothbrushes
    eyeglasses
    science
    bicycles
    screen printing
    the study of history

    Good points.
    You raise a great question.
    I actually began to think about things like this with some obsession after I saw Single Video Theory for the very first time. What I am referring to is at the end when Eddie says he used to not be able to justify being a singer. Then he pauses and says:
    ”Idiot”…or something to that degree. I always saw him as so humble and it was evident that he questioned his own value or what he had to offer to society.

    It was around that time where I thought I had to contribute something larger to society.
    I used to hate science when I was in school, but I have since gone on to work in a science related field for the last ten years. And I am commenting because I see you made an interesting list that included science. Everyday I am flabbergasted at what scientists have done in all fields. But at the same time it all can loop back to the man vs. animal debate…Are we gonna kill each other off with what we know with science? A lot of people were sure of this when nuclear bombs started becoming more prolific. But that’s a bad way to look at it. Sure, there are going to be mad scientists hiding in caves looking to create the ultimate Arnold Swarzenegar Killing machine, but there are so many more that are doing wonderful things. And we have identified a lot of our mistakes and are working to improve on them. Alternative energy is becoming a huge issue, and will be the biggest thing we talk about in the years to come.

    As far as value though, who knows? We must treat the planet with respect, of course, but value is really in the eye of the beholder I guess.

    ps - Kaleidoscopes are awesome too! :D
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    scb wrote:
    You act like we have to either destroy the whole ecosystem or never use any resources at all. I think the whole point is that we should at least do our very best to use resources in the most balanced, sustainable way possible. Do you think we're already doing this?
    Im not the one overreacting about every little thing a human does and generalizing the whole race as not valuing life... I don't think that previously we understood the harful effects that we put on the ecosystem, Now we understand these harmful effects and I think we are doing our best in using resources. I work in the construction industry and i rarley ever build stick built (wood) buildings anymore, its all alumnium studs. So there is a conscience effort, changes don't happen overnight. Why is it perfectly fine for animals to do what they can to survive yet humans get ridiculed for doing what we do to survive? We are not primitive anymore, so quit expecting us to live primitive. You should feel lucky that you are able to see your kids grow and your grandchildren grow without having to worry about where your next meal is.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    tonifig8 wrote:
    Godfather. wrote:

    Godfather,
    what does your bible teach you?

    read it and find out brother, I am not a perfect person by any means but I have accepted God into my heart and I try to be the best person that I can be, I pray almost every day and ask questions and most times with God in your heart you'll find answers aside from that it's the best history book in the world, but if you ask just to stirr up crap please don't, what is your faith ?

    Godfather.

    I believe Jesus Christ died for our sins .... Your far from perfect....
    I just don't understand people like you .. people like unsung...or Ariel... How can you and I be Christians yet be so different....... If you really love God, then why don't you allow him in your life .... pray for knowledge, for peace, strength, for your common man, etc..etc... I have very conservative relatives and I don't understand them either....we both love the same God, but one takes extreme positions and the other asks himself what would Jesus do? If you do read the bible and believe Jesus to be your savior ask yourself that question when making judgments or taking positions.... Don't put your country or anything before God....put your brothers/sisters and God before anything....make that sacrifice and you should be able to figure out right from wrong.... There is more to life then right and left...

    great post Toni thanks.

    Godfather.
  • Boxes&Books
    Boxes&Books USA Posts: 2,672
    Godfather. wrote:
    great post Toni thanks.

    Godfather.


    I am far ..far...far.... from perfect....... I want to be better and I want to understand people.... which is why I ask and why I speak....
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,155
    Value is subjective. Humanity is as valuable as we choose to believe it is.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • puremagic
    puremagic Posts: 1,907
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Ive said it once already and ill say it again - "You are describing issues in mankinds society and trying to identify it with an animals society who's whole purpose is to survive, you can't compare an animals primitive society to ours". Animals don't value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life, what they do is based on instinct and survival, and when they do something humans like to put a human emotion or tag on what they do. I don't understand the few that are bashing humanity for surviving (by using the earths resources) but yet if we witnessed an animal do the things we do we would recognize it as how inteligent they are. I don't know why some of you can't grasp the concept that what we are doing is part of our nature, we just attached morals to everything we do. For those saying the earth is not here for us, I understand that but where do you draw the line in terms of using the resources and destroying ecosystems? Building a house is destroying a house for some other species, same is walking on the grass you are destroying lives of alphids... Where does it end. Since when is survival about being nice?


    You said "Animals don’t value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life.” Yet, humans, who supposedly understand the concept of life, kill humans and animals for the sole purpose of killing. Not out of the need for survival, but for the simple instinctive pleasure of the hunt and kill.

    You state that ‘you don’t understand the few that bash humanity for surviving by using the earth’s resources”. If humanity were using the earth’s resources to benefit all of mankind then there would be no world hunger, no water shortages, no homelessness, no borders, and people everywhere would have electricity. There would be no need for the IMF, the World Bank or Bono.

    What you see as bashing is your failure to understand you have inserted your moral values to conclude that your right to survive should be placed above everything on this planet, including the planet itself. Is it your nature to play God!!!
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    puremagic wrote:
    You said "Animals don’t value life because they have no concept of what it means to value life.” Yet, humans, who supposedly understand the concept of life, kill humans and animals for the sole purpose of killing. Not out of the need for survival, but for the simple instinctive pleasure of the hunt and kill.

    However, This is a misleading angle to take. What is the percentage of people who murder people out of the near 7 billion people on our planet? maybe .005%
    As was stated a few pages back, chimpanzes murder each other. Some Ants murder just to murder. In additoin, humans are also able to feel jealousy, hate, anger, love, digust, curiosity, desire, disaapointment, lust, rage, remorse, shame, etc... I wonder how many of these most animals feel? I think we are doing pretty good as a race to have to deal with all that.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    puremagic wrote:
    What you see as bashing is your failure to understand you have inserted your moral values to conclude that your right to survive should be placed above everything on this planet, including the planet itself. Is it your nature to play God!!!

    I don't see him saying that he is putting his rights above everything else...I just think (this is just my interpretation) he is saying that -- what some people think is unnatural is actually our natural way of living our lives. Just like it might be our nature to want to live in a nice house, it might be just as ok for an ant to want to build a perfect nest. I just think we've made more mistakes along the way. We're figuring it out though. Maybe it is taking too damn long to, for instance -- get off dependence of oil, but we're getting there. And there will always be people who take advantage and don't give back, but I think we are becoming more educated as a whole.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)

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