Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

I don't know nearly as much as some of you about this situation but one thing seems clear to me; rationalism is never going to be the solution. There is no logical and reason-based approach to fixing this situation. Even creating a Palestinian country is no solution because there would be disputes over what land they get, how much land, the quality of that land, more people would be displaced to create the country, and inevitably conflict will continue. The only solution is for people to evolve and realize we're all one (literally) and to forget all the bullshit ideologies that allow us to kill each other in the name of god or country. That might sound ideological but I firmly believe this is the way to peace. What is standing in the way of this evolution? - morality, prescribed nonsense, and the need for power and dominance. These are all functions of the ego, so peace means killing the ego. You know, they make chemicals that will do that extremely quickly.

redrock wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Even creating a Palestinian country is no solution because there would be disputes over what land they get, how much land, the quality of that land, more people would be displaced to create the country, and inevitably conflict will continue.

There is an agreement, pre-1967 borders + right to return.

An agreement between who? If there is an agreement why isn't it done?

(I know I'm displaying my ignorance on this subject)

United Nations Security Council Resolution xxx (I can't remember the number and no time to google at the moment).
Agreement may be the wrong word as Israel does not agree to anything.

polaris_x wrote:

he still stands wrote:

An agreement between who? If there is an agreement why isn't it done?

(I know I'm displaying my ignorance on this subject)

because israel does not want to give up what it has taken ... there is a strong populace of right wing hardliners that are pro-expansion ... they have had significant influence in every israeli gov't for the last while ... they are not interested in making peace deals ... as we speak - settlers continue to expand into land that is not theirs ...

They have disproportionate influence. Because Israel has ~20 different political parties, the parties need to form alliances to get any kind of majority power in the Knesset. So the right-wing orthodox who are responsible for the settlements and who only have maybe 12-13% of the vote end up wielding quite a bit of power. There are political parties in Israel who are against the settlements, etc, but they can't get anything done.

The UN Resolution is 242.

how cool would be to live both (israelian-palestinian) in the area in peace..how fuckin cool..

michelle822 wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

it doesn't matter who wins the election

Agreed. Sadly.

Actually, I take that back. As far as the alliances and voting power, yes. But it can matter very much who is Prime Minister, how they address issues and how they even speak about them - the difference between a more inflammatory or more conciliatory tone can be meaningful, even if the votes aren't there.

rafie wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

rafie's double standard is brilliant: on one hand, he tries to put the blame of the blockade on Hamas, and talks about how nice Israel was for "unilaterally withdrawing" from Gaza. On the other hand, he considers Gaza's territorial waters Israeli! which is it, rafie? Is Gaza under Israeli control or not?

Gaza is not an independent country. The blockade on the Gaza strip is sanctioned by world powers. Even Egypt is actively participating in the blockade. There is no double standard here.
There is no Israeli presence in the Gaza strip. Whether you ike it or not, Israel supplies The citizans of Gaza every week with hundreds of tons of supplies - despite the fact that Hamas denies to acknowledge Israels right to exist. Israel is a nation just like any other in the world and was founded with the U.N. approval. The palestinians on the other hand do not yet have a nation or leadership of their own (hamas in gaza and the PLO in the west bank).I think that the best possible thing that could happen to Israel is for the Palestinians to have their own nation and to finally leave us alone. The problem with that is that Hamas leadership has repeatedly stated in the past that they will not rest until Israel is erased from the map. I am sad to say that there are quite a few people on this forum who would love to see that happen and continue to spew hate here in disguise of justice.

despite the fact that the UN has recently said that Israel only allows in roughly 1/4 of what the citizebs of Gaza need.....

can y ou name anyone else other than Israel, Egypt and the US who thinks this blockade is legal?

Hey rafie !!!

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340 ... 16,00.html

Thought-police is here

Rona Kuperboim slams Foreign Ministry’s plan to hire pro-Israel talkbackers

Rona Kuperboim
Published: 07.10.09, 13:11 / Israel Opinion

The Foreign Ministry unveiled a new plan this week: Paying talkbackers to post pro-Israel responses on websites worldwide. A total of NIS 600,000 (roughly $150,000) will be earmarked to the establishment of an “Internet warfare” squad.

The Foreign Ministry intends to hire young people who speak at least one language and who study communication, political science, or law – or alternately, Israelis with military experience gained at units dealing with information analysis.

Beyond the fact that these job requirements reveal a basic lack of understanding in respect to the dynamics of the online discourse – the project’s manager argued that “adults don’t know how to blog” – they are not too relevant either. An effective talkbacker does not need a law degree or military experience. He merely needs to care about the subject he writes about.

The sad truth is that had Israeli citizens believed that their State is doing the right thing, they would have made sure to explain it out of their own accord. Without being paid.

Foreign Ministry officials are fighting what they see as a terrible and scary monster: the Palestinian public relations monster. Yet nothing can be done to defeat it, regardless of how many foolish inventions will be introduced and how many bright communication students will be hired.

The reason is that good PR cannot make the reality in the occupied territories prettier. Children are being killed, homes are being bombed, and families are starved. Yet nonetheless, the Foreign Ministry wants to try to change the situation. And they have willing partners. “Where do I submit a CV?” wrote one respondent. “I’m fluent in several languages and I’m able to spew forth bullshit for hours on end.”
Anti-democratic initiative

Any attempt to plant talkbacks online must fail. Especially if the State is behind it. Not only because it’s easy to identify responses made on behalf of someone, but also because it’s anti-democratic. When the Israel Electric Company or other companies do it, it’s annoying. Yet when the State does it, it’s dangerous.

Imposters on behalf of the government are threatening free discourse even if they only wander through the virtual space. The Internet was meant to serve as an open platform for dialogue between people, rather than as a propaganda means.

Something worrisome is happening here lately. We see the accumulation of silencing attempts. The Nakba Law, the bill calling for a ban on protests outside the homes of politicians, Lieberman’s Loyalty Law, and the biometric information database. The free speech hunting season is on.

Thankfully we have the Internet, and it enables us to identify processes, discuss them, warn about them, and join forces against them. We can assume that soon we’ll see the establishment of a website opposed to this new initiative, unless such site already exists. Perhaps even a group on Facebook. I wonder whether all its members will be Foreign Ministry agents, or whether it will also include some real people.

This is not a police state: This is a thought-police state.

Interesting...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... -suspected

catefrances wrote:

one would have too ask WHY the israeli govt find it necessary to stop aid reaching gaza.

In actuality Israel offered to let the flotilla dock in Israel, at the port in Ashdod, and to allow the aid to reach Gaza overland after it underwent an inspection. I'm not sure why this offer would be turned down (which it was) except if the goal of the flotilla was as much political as it was humanitarian, i.e. they were as interested (if not more interested) in breaking the blockade as they were in getting aid to Gaza.