Thats the reason those teams are trained to do those attacks and clear areas with no shooting..someone give the order to shoot,and that a huge mistake..they could fire with canons warning shoots from distance as all countries do in that cases..in octomber the same happens with ship carry guns the israelian forces attack and no shooting,and now with un armed people they shoot.big mistake.. im not gonna start a conversation about where was the ship location ,cos 80 miles from lanmds isnt israel waters but international.but shooting people by organize army is mistake..i guess u understand that people on ship when they see in the middle of the night soldier landing ,was the normal action to attack them..who knows what paint ball guns is..its your life agains mine there..u and i will do the same..+ those gun can change from paint to kill bullet in 1 second..from the moment they carry real bullets the paintball are for the media after
The thing is, none of the Israeli intelligance even hinted that the soilders would be so violently attacked. I have not mentioned it before, but there were several ships involved in the convoy and from what I understand, all the violance came from only one of them. On the other ships things went relitivly quiet.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Israel repeatedly offered them to bring their payload to an Israeli port for screening in order to have the red cross deliever the supplies. If these people really wanted to deilever humanitarian aid, they would have done that.
Apart from Israel (and maybe the US), we know that 3/4 of this aid would have NEVER reached Gaza following Israeli 'screening'. As I said, this would have included the crayons for the kids.
The organizers of this thing got exactly what they wanted: pictures broadcast around the world showin Israeli soilders stopping them. They never had any intentions of actually reaching Gaza. The whole point was the clash with the army.
How dare you say that. Outrageous. Doesn't even warrant a reply. You have no credibility whatsoever.
Apart from Israel (and maybe the US), we know that 3/4 of this aid would have NEVER reached Gaza following Israeli 'screening'. As I said, this would have included the crayons for the kids.
Like I already wrote repeatedly: "screening with the red cross present and have them deliever the supplies". Unless you are saying that the red cross, an international aid organization, is byist and would not deliever the supplies, I do not see the problem with this.
As for the vids, I am looking specifically for the un edited footage taken by the Israeli forces while they initially boarded the ship without all the news casters spinning the footage (to either side)
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
that's the reason jose soldiers train against protesters in all over the world..if was to shoot every protest carry a chair or rob will be thousand death in every demonstration every day...
Yes I guess you're right, it would be like hitting an old woman with a bat because she hits you first with her purse, isn't it? :(
I'm completely ignorant about this matters :oops:
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
One more thing, from what I have heard so far, the people killed were not elderly holocust survivers as some people here may (want you to) believe, but armed young people who activly participated in the attacking of the soilders. We won't know for sure until probably tomorrow when they publisize the names of the casualties.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Rules of engagement... Israel has shown many times over that they have no concerns about these rules.
the only thing im sure about my self is killing another person like that is so bad,,i dont put labels,or in general say israelian are bad or ,arabs are bad,..i see only murderer and victim..but israel done it so many times,u are right..and really,there was no point for do it last night..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Like I already wrote repeatedly: "screening with the red cross present and have them deliever the supplies". Unless you are saying that the red cross, an international aid organization, is byist and would not deliever the supplies, I do not see the problem with this.
As for the vids, I am looking specifically for the un edited footage taken by the Israeli forces while they initially boarded the ship without all the news casters spinning the footage (to either side)
1. do you honestly think the IDF will release any footage that would look remotely damning to them!?
2. it isn't the red cross that is biased - it's the conditions by which israel has set for them to operate ... the red cross isn't denying the people of gaza supplies - it's israel ...
this voyage was designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to show the world what israel is doing to the people of gaza ... everyone knew israel would not allow this voyage to reach its destination ...
Apart from Israel (and maybe the US), we know that 3/4 of this aid would have NEVER reached Gaza following Israeli 'screening'. As I said, this would have included the crayons for the kids.
Like I already wrote repeatedly: "screening with the red cross present and have them deliever the supplies". Unless you are saying that the red cross, an international aid organization, is byist and would not deliever the supplies, I do not see the problem with this.
Fact... the Red Cross WILL deliver whatever humanitarian aid to Gaza they can, of course - as will other aid agencies.
Fact... Israel DECIDES WHAT AID the Red Cross can deliver. SCREENING is the key word here. If you were to educate yourself a bit more about this, you will certainly find the list of 'banned' items quite incredulous. Thus trying to get aid directly to Gaza.
Ships with humanitarian aid have managed to get to Gaza before with the aid needed and not the aid Israel decided the people of Gaza needed.
And before you find a way to twist this around, these are FACTS, related to me by a several aid workers (two of them being with the Red Cross).
One more thing, from what I have heard so far, the people killed were not elderly holocust survivers as some people here may (want you to) believe, but armed young people who activly participated in the attacking of the soilders. We won't know for sure until probably tomorrow when they publisize the names of the casualties.
be sure the most will be turkish...they say here 9 or 10 are the victims.another source talks about 19.
.50 injured...no Greeks on victim,was in other ships..one was arrested in that ship the time call media in greece,they cut him during talking
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I don't have a clue about the nationality of the casualties.
Just a reminder to the people who have forgotten, One of the MAIN reasons that there is any kind of blockade on the Gaza strip is the fact that for the past 4 years Hamas has been holding Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soilder kidnapped AFTER israel unilatterely evacuated the Gaza strip, without letting any humanitarian aid reach him and without letting the red cross see him. On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I don't have a clue about the nationality of the casualties.
Just a reminder to the people who have forgotten, One of the MAIN reasons that there is any kind of blockade on the Gaza strip is the fact that for the past 4 years Hamas has been holding Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soilder kidnapped AFTER israel unilatterely evacuated the Gaza strip, without letting any humanitarian aid reach him and without letting the red cross see him. On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...
soo ... what you're saying is that palestinian prisoners have it better than palestinian civilians in gaza!?? ...
seriously, you are honestly trying to come on this particular board and justify one of the biggest crimes against HUMANITY in the world today on the basis of ONE prisoner? ... if you had any credibility - you have now lost it ... propaganda is one thing but you are selling some things that even the most objective will find hard to swallow ...
[quote="polaris_x
1. do you honestly think the IDF will release any footage that would look remotely damning to them!?
this voyage was designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to show the world what israel is doing to the people of gaza ... everyone knew israel would not allow this voyage to reach its destination ...[/quote]
Don't know about you, but so far the only footage I have seen of what happened as the soilders boarded the ships was stuff that the IDF filmed. All the other stuff I have seen during the day have been video footage of the injured people afterwards - this footage does not really help us figure out exactly what happened.
Besides that, I think that it is pretty much fact that all news stations are byesed towards one direction or the other, there fore, the unedited stuff without any commentary should be the most objective. I would love to see any footage taken on board the ship by the activist themselves as the soilders were boarding. That should be quite enlightining.
I mostly agree with the second thing you wrote. Israel has been stating publicly for the past week that there is no way that she would let the convoy enter her waters (personally I see no problem with this - would your country let ships harboring several passengers known to have terroist ties into their waters?). As for the purpose of the convoy, the organizers knew that there was no chance that they would ever reach land in Gaza. They wanted a clash and they got it. Israel once again has been portrayed in the eyes of the world as a monster deniying humanitarian aid to the "poor" people of Gaza. The same "poor" people that Israel send hundreds of tons of supplies a week to. The same "poor" people that are described here:
apparently, up until a couple of weeks ago, there have been outdoor events and concerts in the Gaza strip (maybe Pearl Jam will com :-P) and the young folk there have it real hard now that they have no nightlife due to exams. But at least they still have the olympic size swiming pools and 5 star restaurants:
]Israel has been stating publicly for the past week that there is no way that she would let the convoy enter her waters (personally I see no problem with this - would your country let ships harboring several passengers known to have terroist ties into their waters?).
I'm waiting for your post stating that the ships were actually full of terrorists... you're getting there! Again.... when will you understand that the ships were in INTERNATIONAL waters, NOT Israeli waters.
As for the purpose of the convoy, the organizers knew that there was no chance that they would ever reach land in Gaza. They wanted a clash and they got it.
The organisers could not be sure of that. Their hope was that they WOULD reach Gaza. After all, several ships had done so before them, even after Israel's belligerence before/as they sailed.
soo ... what you're saying is that palestinian prisoners have it better than palestinian civilians in gaza!?? ...
seriously, you are honestly trying to come on this particular board and justify one of the biggest crimes against HUMANITY in the world today on the basis of ONE prisoner? ... if you had any credibility - you have now lost it ... propaganda is one thing but you are selling some things that even the most objective will find hard to swallow ...
Actually now that you mention it, that first line actually does sound kind of accurate....
I don't see any problem in stating my opinions on any board, especially this one! I am sad to say that most of the time these boards are not a place for legitimate debate, but for one sided hate mongering. As a proud jew and a proud Israeli I have no problem in the world defending my beliefs and ideals against people whose only interest is hate.
From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...
Any one who has even the smallest knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict knows that things are not always so nice and one sided as some people and news agencies may have you believe. I am in no way justifying the taking of any human life, but people need to realize that this convoy was not 100% peace oriented. I am sure that most of the hundreds of people participating were doing it entirely for humanitarian reasons, but that still does not excuse those few dozens that had violence in mind.
I have never stated that I am "selling things". I am simply stating the other side of the debate. Any one who is trully objective will look at both sides of the story and decide for them selves.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I find it interesting that no one has even brought up the fact that hundreds of trucks with supplies enter Gaza every week from Israel.
That's actually a lie, and it's laughable that you would suggest something so ignorantly when it's not even debatable that Gaza is currently suffering one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world from lack of necessary medical supplies, food, etc.
No country in the world would allow ships to enter their territorial waters without proper screening and security cautions. Why should Israel be held to a higher standerd?
First, these were not territorial waters, they were international waters. If Iran were to board an Israeli ship in international waters and kill Israeli civilians, it would be considered an act of war.
And Israeli is NOT held to a higher standard. In fact, Israel is given free reign to control Gazan waters, airspace, borders, etc. This is territory that even you, rafie, claim that Israel "unilaterally" withdrew from. Please don't make me laugh by saying Israel is held to a higher standard regarding anything territorial. Their entire country is land stolen from an exiled people, and their occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal in every aspect and their siege on the Gazan people is a violation of international law and a crime against humanity.
From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...
where do I say there is no problem!? ... but you hold 1.5 million people hostage over 1 prisoner and you think it is justified!?? ... i'm sorry but if you think that is justified then I feel sorry for YOU ...
israel has the most UN Security Resolutions against its actions for one simple reason ... they continually violate international human rights laws ... the only reason nothing is done is because the US vetoes every resolution against israel ...
and i'm not sure what treaties you think israel lives up to ... if you would like to educate us on that ... i know for certain it isn't the NPT ...
Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:
Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.
You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?
And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.
Still can't believe I met Mike Mccready at the Guggenheim and got a pic with him!!!!!
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...
are you insane? all palestinian prisoners in Israel have televisions? visiting rights? you're delusional. Israel actually kidnaps tons of Palestinians, including children, many times without informing their families. There are reports about torture in the prisons, and poor treatment. In fact, there was recently a report that Israeli prison guards sexually abuse Palestinian children who are detained as a torture method. what world are you living in?
Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:
Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.
You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?
And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.
what does this have to do with Hamas? or are you just regurgitating what the Israeli PR campaign has been trying to sell.
I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.
You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?
Not me personally but friends, some of which are family members of people living in Gaza, aid workers - Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres. What they have witnessed, photos and videos brought back are a far cry from a decent life in Gaza. These are just personal contacts. I dare not mention Amnesty, etc. as you may think this is propaganda from the 'other side'.
....Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.
Ah yes.. we have seen this 'humanity' during the last 'incursion' in Gaza. I'm glad the IDF took so much care to avoid killing and maiming civilians - women and children. Good thing they got the flyer and a phone call!
:roll:
I'm starting to wonder if you're for real or if you're just trolling.
I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.
Agreed, although a third party might be an even better idea.
Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:
Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.
You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?
And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.
The majority of people on the MT take up for terrorist……they always find a way to justify terrorist attacks…then turn around and try to make you into the bad guy….just because you have an opinion they don't agree with
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
The majority of people on the MT take up for terrorist……they always find a way to justify terrorist attacks…then turn around and try to make you into the bad guy….just because you have an opinion they don't agree with
The only terrorist attack here is Israel giving the green light to it's army to attack ships full of humanitarian aid, in INTERNATIONAL waters, killing anywhere between 10-19 people and injuring up to 50.
As this is what the thread is about - an aid convoy attacked by Israel in international waters - you are right in calling this a terrorist attack. But no one here is trying to justify it except Rafie.
Most here (and the rest of the world!) are outraged by this act.
a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization.
This is ok with the Israel haters?
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Here is a video showing some of the weapons used to attack the soilders (not exactly what I was looking for, but it will due for now). notice the soilders giving medical aid to the injured. I actually live in a city with a main hospital and heard several helicopters making their way there during the day:
Looks to me that both sides are wrong…..aren’t they both killing….are we not against killing…
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Looks to me that both sides are wrong…..aren’t they both killing….are we not against killing…
if this is where you are in the discussion - i suggest you read over the thousands of israel/palestine threads that are on this forum for the last few years ...
the whole both sides are wrong thing has been discussed a thousand times over ...
THere are loads of vids all over the place. The news in various countries are also showing the footage of the soldiers being hit by the people on the boat defending themselves from the assault, so it's not like it's one-sided. Rafie... we see them, we have news channels that will show both sides. If one country is biaised, one looks at the news from another. Also, we all know that the ships had 'options' but these options were not really options were they? They were orders... you comply or we attack basically.
The ships' destination was Gaza, not Israel. Israel has absolutely no right to give ANY ship any order in INTERNATIONAL waters. Simple.
I guess Israel will say it's the world against them again and no one understands....
Sweet dreams - I'm sure little things like this 'squirmish' and the plight of Gaza won't trouble your sleep.
I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.
Agreed, although a third party might be an even better idea.
already Turkey demand extraordinary council of UN..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Comments
The thing is, none of the Israeli intelligance even hinted that the soilders would be so violently attacked. I have not mentioned it before, but there were several ships involved in the convoy and from what I understand, all the violance came from only one of them. On the other ships things went relitivly quiet.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Ummmmm..... they weren't in Israeli waters but International waters. Therefore pure and simple governement dictated piracy from the IDF
Apart from Israel (and maybe the US), we know that 3/4 of this aid would have NEVER reached Gaza following Israeli 'screening'. As I said, this would have included the crayons for the kids.
How dare you say that. Outrageous. Doesn't even warrant a reply. You have no credibility whatsoever.
Plenty of vids on the internet but also on numerous news channels from various countries (just to make it a bit more 'equal').
I can't believe this kind of 'brainwashing'.
Rules of engagement... Israel has shown many times over that they have no concerns about these rules.
Like I already wrote repeatedly: "screening with the red cross present and have them deliever the supplies". Unless you are saying that the red cross, an international aid organization, is byist and would not deliever the supplies, I do not see the problem with this.
As for the vids, I am looking specifically for the un edited footage taken by the Israeli forces while they initially boarded the ship without all the news casters spinning the footage (to either side)
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Yes I guess you're right, it would be like hitting an old woman with a bat because she hits you first with her purse, isn't it? :(
I'm completely ignorant about this matters :oops:
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
1. do you honestly think the IDF will release any footage that would look remotely damning to them!?
2. it isn't the red cross that is biased - it's the conditions by which israel has set for them to operate ... the red cross isn't denying the people of gaza supplies - it's israel ...
this voyage was designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to show the world what israel is doing to the people of gaza ... everyone knew israel would not allow this voyage to reach its destination ...
Fact... the Red Cross WILL deliver whatever humanitarian aid to Gaza they can, of course - as will other aid agencies.
Fact... Israel DECIDES WHAT AID the Red Cross can deliver. SCREENING is the key word here. If you were to educate yourself a bit more about this, you will certainly find the list of 'banned' items quite incredulous. Thus trying to get aid directly to Gaza.
Ships with humanitarian aid have managed to get to Gaza before with the aid needed and not the aid Israel decided the people of Gaza needed.
And before you find a way to twist this around, these are FACTS, related to me by a several aid workers (two of them being with the Red Cross).
.50 injured...no Greeks on victim,was in other ships..one was arrested in that ship the time call media in greece,they cut him during talking
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Just a reminder to the people who have forgotten, One of the MAIN reasons that there is any kind of blockade on the Gaza strip is the fact that for the past 4 years Hamas has been holding Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soilder kidnapped AFTER israel unilatterely evacuated the Gaza strip, without letting any humanitarian aid reach him and without letting the red cross see him. On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
soo ... what you're saying is that palestinian prisoners have it better than palestinian civilians in gaza!?? ...
seriously, you are honestly trying to come on this particular board and justify one of the biggest crimes against HUMANITY in the world today on the basis of ONE prisoner? ... if you had any credibility - you have now lost it ... propaganda is one thing but you are selling some things that even the most objective will find hard to swallow ...
1. do you honestly think the IDF will release any footage that would look remotely damning to them!?
this voyage was designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to show the world what israel is doing to the people of gaza ... everyone knew israel would not allow this voyage to reach its destination ...[/quote]
Don't know about you, but so far the only footage I have seen of what happened as the soilders boarded the ships was stuff that the IDF filmed. All the other stuff I have seen during the day have been video footage of the injured people afterwards - this footage does not really help us figure out exactly what happened.
Besides that, I think that it is pretty much fact that all news stations are byesed towards one direction or the other, there fore, the unedited stuff without any commentary should be the most objective. I would love to see any footage taken on board the ship by the activist themselves as the soilders were boarding. That should be quite enlightining.
I mostly agree with the second thing you wrote. Israel has been stating publicly for the past week that there is no way that she would let the convoy enter her waters (personally I see no problem with this - would your country let ships harboring several passengers known to have terroist ties into their waters?). As for the purpose of the convoy, the organizers knew that there was no chance that they would ever reach land in Gaza. They wanted a clash and they got it. Israel once again has been portrayed in the eyes of the world as a monster deniying humanitarian aid to the "poor" people of Gaza. The same "poor" people that Israel send hundreds of tons of supplies a week to. The same "poor" people that are described here:
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun ... _05_20.asp
apparently, up until a couple of weeks ago, there have been outdoor events and concerts in the Gaza strip (maybe Pearl Jam will com :-P) and the young folk there have it real hard now that they have no nightlife due to exams. But at least they still have the olympic size swiming pools and 5 star restaurants:
http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -size.html
People need to realize that even though life in Gaza is far from being easy, it is also far from being as hard as some would have you believe.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
I'm waiting for your post stating that the ships were actually full of terrorists... you're getting there! Again.... when will you understand that the ships were in INTERNATIONAL waters, NOT Israeli waters.
The organisers could not be sure of that. Their hope was that they WOULD reach Gaza. After all, several ships had done so before them, even after Israel's belligerence before/as they sailed.
Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:
Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.
Actually now that you mention it, that first line actually does sound kind of accurate....
I don't see any problem in stating my opinions on any board, especially this one! I am sad to say that most of the time these boards are not a place for legitimate debate, but for one sided hate mongering. As a proud jew and a proud Israeli I have no problem in the world defending my beliefs and ideals against people whose only interest is hate.
From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...
Any one who has even the smallest knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict knows that things are not always so nice and one sided as some people and news agencies may have you believe. I am in no way justifying the taking of any human life, but people need to realize that this convoy was not 100% peace oriented. I am sure that most of the hundreds of people participating were doing it entirely for humanitarian reasons, but that still does not excuse those few dozens that had violence in mind.
I have never stated that I am "selling things". I am simply stating the other side of the debate. Any one who is trully objective will look at both sides of the story and decide for them selves.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
First, these were not territorial waters, they were international waters. If Iran were to board an Israeli ship in international waters and kill Israeli civilians, it would be considered an act of war.
And Israeli is NOT held to a higher standard. In fact, Israel is given free reign to control Gazan waters, airspace, borders, etc. This is territory that even you, rafie, claim that Israel "unilaterally" withdrew from. Please don't make me laugh by saying Israel is held to a higher standard regarding anything territorial. Their entire country is land stolen from an exiled people, and their occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal in every aspect and their siege on the Gazan people is a violation of international law and a crime against humanity.
where do I say there is no problem!? ... but you hold 1.5 million people hostage over 1 prisoner and you think it is justified!?? ... i'm sorry but if you think that is justified then I feel sorry for YOU ...
israel has the most UN Security Resolutions against its actions for one simple reason ... they continually violate international human rights laws ... the only reason nothing is done is because the US vetoes every resolution against israel ...
and i'm not sure what treaties you think israel lives up to ... if you would like to educate us on that ... i know for certain it isn't the NPT ...
You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?
And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
Here:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.
Not me personally but friends, some of which are family members of people living in Gaza, aid workers - Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres. What they have witnessed, photos and videos brought back are a far cry from a decent life in Gaza. These are just personal contacts. I dare not mention Amnesty, etc. as you may think this is propaganda from the 'other side'.
Ah yes.. we have seen this 'humanity' during the last 'incursion' in Gaza. I'm glad the IDF took so much care to avoid killing and maiming civilians - women and children. Good thing they got the flyer and a phone call!
:roll:
I'm starting to wonder if you're for real or if you're just trolling.
Agreed, although a third party might be an even better idea.
The only terrorist attack here is Israel giving the green light to it's army to attack ships full of humanitarian aid, in INTERNATIONAL waters, killing anywhere between 10-19 people and injuring up to 50.
As this is what the thread is about - an aid convoy attacked by Israel in international waters - you are right in calling this a terrorist attack. But no one here is trying to justify it except Rafie.
Most here (and the rest of the world!) are outraged by this act.
This is ok with the Israel haters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjY-j6iQrLE
Here is a video showing some of the weapons used to attack the soilders (not exactly what I was looking for, but it will due for now). notice the soilders giving medical aid to the injured. I actually live in a city with a main hospital and heard several helicopters making their way there during the day:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZeJhUCHfgM
Hopefully some more stuff will pop up on the internet tomorrow.
Time for bed
2010: 9/7/10 - Bilbao
2012: 26-27/6/12 - Amsterdam ~~ 29/6/12 - Werchter ~~ 4-5/7/12 - Berlin
2014: 25/6/14 - Vienna ~~ 26/6/14 - Berlin
if this is where you are in the discussion - i suggest you read over the thousands of israel/palestine threads that are on this forum for the last few years ...
the whole both sides are wrong thing has been discussed a thousand times over ...
The ships' destination was Gaza, not Israel. Israel has absolutely no right to give ANY ship any order in INTERNATIONAL waters. Simple.
I guess Israel will say it's the world against them again and no one understands....
Sweet dreams - I'm sure little things like this 'squirmish' and the plight of Gaza won't trouble your sleep.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”