Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

rafie · May 2010

I don't have a clue about the nationality of the casualties.

Just a reminder to the people who have forgotten, One of the MAIN reasons that there is any kind of blockade on the Gaza strip is the fact that for the past 4 years Hamas has been holding Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soilder kidnapped AFTER israel unilatterely evacuated the Gaza strip, without letting any humanitarian aid reach him and without letting the red cross see him. On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...

polaris_x · May 2010

rafie wrote:

I don't have a clue about the nationality of the casualties.

Just a reminder to the people who have forgotten, One of the MAIN reasons that there is any kind of blockade on the Gaza strip is the fact that for the past 4 years Hamas has been holding Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soilder kidnapped AFTER israel unilatterely evacuated the Gaza strip, without letting any humanitarian aid reach him and without letting the red cross see him. On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...

soo ... what you're saying is that palestinian prisoners have it better than palestinian civilians in gaza!?? ...

seriously, you are honestly trying to come on this particular board and justify one of the biggest crimes against HUMANITY in the world today on the basis of ONE prisoner? ... if you had any credibility - you have now lost it ... propaganda is one thing but you are selling some things that even the most objective will find hard to swallow ...

rafie · May 2010

[quote="polaris_x
1. do you honestly think the IDF will release any footage that would look remotely damning to them!?

this voyage was designed for one purpose and one purpose only - to show the world what israel is doing to the people of gaza ... everyone knew israel would not allow this voyage to reach its destination ...[/quote]

Don't know about you, but so far the only footage I have seen of what happened as the soilders boarded the ships was stuff that the IDF filmed. All the other stuff I have seen during the day have been video footage of the injured people afterwards - this footage does not really help us figure out exactly what happened.
Besides that, I think that it is pretty much fact that all news stations are byesed towards one direction or the other, there fore, the unedited stuff without any commentary should be the most objective. I would love to see any footage taken on board the ship by the activist themselves as the soilders were boarding. That should be quite enlightining.

I mostly agree with the second thing you wrote. Israel has been stating publicly for the past week that there is no way that she would let the convoy enter her waters (personally I see no problem with this - would your country let ships harboring several passengers known to have terroist ties into their waters?). As for the purpose of the convoy, the organizers knew that there was no chance that they would ever reach land in Gaza. They wanted a clash and they got it. Israel once again has been portrayed in the eyes of the world as a monster deniying humanitarian aid to the "poor" people of Gaza. The same "poor" people that Israel send hundreds of tons of supplies a week to. The same "poor" people that are described here:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribun ... _05_20.asp

apparently, up until a couple of weeks ago, there have been outdoor events and concerts in the Gaza strip (maybe Pearl Jam will com :-P) and the young folk there have it real hard now that they have no nightlife due to exams. But at least they still have the olympic size swiming pools and 5 star restaurants:

http://ussneverdock.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -size.html

People need to realize that even though life in Gaza is far from being easy, it is also far from being as hard as some would have you believe.

redrock · May 2010

rafie wrote:

]Israel has been stating publicly for the past week that there is no way that she would let the convoy enter her waters (personally I see no problem with this - would your country let ships harboring several passengers known to have terroist ties into their waters?).

I'm waiting for your post stating that the ships were actually full of terrorists... you're getting there! Again.... when will you understand that the ships were in INTERNATIONAL waters, NOT Israeli waters.

rafie wrote:

As for the purpose of the convoy, the organizers knew that there was no chance that they would ever reach land in Gaza. They wanted a clash and they got it.

The organisers could not be sure of that. Their hope was that they WOULD reach Gaza. After all, several ships had done so before them, even after Israel's belligerence before/as they sailed.

rafie wrote:

People need to realize that even though life in Gaza is far from being easy, it is also far from being as hard as some would have you believe.

Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:

Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.

rafie · May 2010

polaris_x wrote:

soo ... what you're saying is that palestinian prisoners have it better than palestinian civilians in gaza!?? ...

seriously, you are honestly trying to come on this particular board and justify one of the biggest crimes against HUMANITY in the world today on the basis of ONE prisoner? ... if you had any credibility - you have now lost it ... propaganda is one thing but you are selling some things that even the most objective will find hard to swallow ...

Actually now that you mention it, that first line actually does sound kind of accurate....

I don't see any problem in stating my opinions on any board, especially this one! I am sad to say that most of the time these boards are not a place for legitimate debate, but for one sided hate mongering. As a proud jew and a proud Israeli I have no problem in the world defending my beliefs and ideals against people whose only interest is hate.

From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...

Any one who has even the smallest knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict knows that things are not always so nice and one sided as some people and news agencies may have you believe. I am in no way justifying the taking of any human life, but people need to realize that this convoy was not 100% peace oriented. I am sure that most of the hundreds of people participating were doing it entirely for humanitarian reasons, but that still does not excuse those few dozens that had violence in mind.

I have never stated that I am "selling things". I am simply stating the other side of the debate. Any one who is trully objective will look at both sides of the story and decide for them selves.

fuck · May 2010

rafie wrote:

I find it interesting that no one has even brought up the fact that hundreds of trucks with supplies enter Gaza every week from Israel.

That's actually a lie, and it's laughable that you would suggest something so ignorantly when it's not even debatable that Gaza is currently suffering one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world from lack of necessary medical supplies, food, etc.

No country in the world would allow ships to enter their territorial waters without proper screening and security cautions. Why should Israel be held to a higher standerd?

First, these were not territorial waters, they were international waters. If Iran were to board an Israeli ship in international waters and kill Israeli civilians, it would be considered an act of war.

And Israeli is NOT held to a higher standard. In fact, Israel is given free reign to control Gazan waters, airspace, borders, etc. This is territory that even you, rafie, claim that Israel "unilaterally" withdrew from. Please don't make me laugh by saying Israel is held to a higher standard regarding anything territorial. Their entire country is land stolen from an exiled people, and their occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem is illegal in every aspect and their siege on the Gazan people is a violation of international law and a crime against humanity.

polaris_x · May 2010

rafie wrote:

From what you say here, there is absolutely no problem in your mind that a prisoner is being denied basic human rights, such as a pair of glasses for example, simply because he is only one person. But on the other hand, Israel is expected to live up to all international treaties on the subject even though the palestinan leadership is not. If that is justice in your mind, i feel sorry for you...

where do I say there is no problem!? ... but you hold 1.5 million people hostage over 1 prisoner and you think it is justified!?? ... i'm sorry but if you think that is justified then I feel sorry for YOU ...

israel has the most UN Security Resolutions against its actions for one simple reason ... they continually violate international human rights laws ... the only reason nothing is done is because the US vetoes every resolution against israel ...

and i'm not sure what treaties you think israel lives up to ... if you would like to educate us on that ... i know for certain it isn't the NPT ...

rafie · May 2010

redrock wrote:

Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:

Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.

You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?

And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.

fuck · May 2010

rafie wrote:

On the other hand, all of the palestinans imprisoned in Israeli prisons have visiting rights, have the option to achieve academic degrees, Have luxary items such as televions and daily newspapers...

are you insane? all palestinian prisoners in Israel have televisions? visiting rights? you're delusional. Israel actually kidnaps tons of Palestinians, including children, many times without informing their families. There are reports about torture in the prisons, and poor treatment. In fact, there was recently a report that Israeli prison guards sexually abuse Palestinian children who are detained as a torture method. what world are you living in?

Here:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

fuck · May 2010

rafie wrote:

redrock wrote:

Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:

Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.

You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?

And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.

what does this have to do with Hamas? or are you just regurgitating what the Israeli PR campaign has been trying to sell.

I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.

redrock · May 2010

rafie wrote:

You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?

Not me personally but friends, some of which are family members of people living in Gaza, aid workers - Red Cross and Medecins Sans Frontieres. What they have witnessed, photos and videos brought back are a far cry from a decent life in Gaza. These are just personal contacts. I dare not mention Amnesty, etc. as you may think this is propaganda from the 'other side'.

rafie wrote:

....Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.

Ah yes.. we have seen this 'humanity' during the last 'incursion' in Gaza. I'm glad the IDF took so much care to avoid killing and maiming civilians - women and children. Good thing they got the flyer and a phone call!

:roll:

I'm starting to wonder if you're for real or if you're just trolling.

rebornFixer · May 2010

_outlaw wrote:

I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.

Agreed, although a third party might be an even better idea.

aerial · May 2010

rafie wrote:

redrock wrote:

Yeah... it's a doddle living there. Why don't you try it for a bit.. you'll love it :roll:

Just believe all the propaganda that is fed to you. It's easier to live with blinkers on.

You keep pulling out the "brainwashing propaganda" debate. What makes you think that you have heard anything other than propaganda from the other side? Do you live in the Gaza strip? Have you ever visited there?

And once again you are twisting my words (one more time and i will stop repliying to you). I never said that all of the hundreds of participants were terrorists, *I said that several of the participants had known terrorist ties. And just in case you want me to substaniate that last statement, Hamas has been a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization. And before you go into the whole "Israel bombs civilians too" argument, Israel has proven to be one of the more humane armies in the world, doing any thing possible to minimize civilian cassulties. Before Israeli army bombs civilian areas, 2 things happen:
1) Intelligance cameras film terrorists shooting from those areas
2) they drop fliers and make phone calls to peoples homes warning civilians in advance that they are going to bomb the area and telling them that they should evacuate.

The majority of people on the MT take up for terrorist……they always find a way to justify terrorist attacks…then turn around and try to make you into the bad guy….just because you have an opinion they don't agree with

redrock · May 2010

aerial wrote:

The majority of people on the MT take up for terrorist……they always find a way to justify terrorist attacks…then turn around and try to make you into the bad guy….just because you have an opinion they don't agree with

The only terrorist attack here is Israel giving the green light to it's army to attack ships full of humanitarian aid, in INTERNATIONAL waters, killing anywhere between 10-19 people and injuring up to 50.

As this is what the thread is about - an aid convoy attacked by Israel in international waters - you are right in calling this a terrorist attack. But no one here is trying to justify it except Rafie.

Most here (and the rest of the world!) are outraged by this act.

aerial · May 2010

a recognized terrorist organization for the past couple of decades by different world leaders (not just Israel). Any organization who fires rockets into civilian cities with absoulyely no warning and sends it's followeres to blow themselves up on busses and in cofee shops is most deffinately a terrorist organization.

This is ok with the Israel haters?

rafie · May 2010

Here is a video of the Israeli navy giving the convoy the option to land at the Ashdod port in Israel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjY-j6iQrLE

Here is a video showing some of the weapons used to attack the soilders (not exactly what I was looking for, but it will due for now). notice the soilders giving medical aid to the injured. I actually live in a city with a main hospital and heard several helicopters making their way there during the day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZeJhUCHfgM

Hopefully some more stuff will pop up on the internet tomorrow.

Time for bed

aerial · May 2010

Looks to me that both sides are wrong…..aren’t they both killing….are we not against killing…

polaris_x · May 2010

aerial wrote:

Looks to me that both sides are wrong…..aren’t they both killing….are we not against killing…

if this is where you are in the discussion - i suggest you read over the thousands of israel/palestine threads that are on this forum for the last few years ...

the whole both sides are wrong thing has been discussed a thousand times over ...

redrock · May 2010

THere are loads of vids all over the place. The news in various countries are also showing the footage of the soldiers being hit by the people on the boat defending themselves from the assault, so it's not like it's one-sided. Rafie... we see them, we have news channels that will show both sides. If one country is biaised, one looks at the news from another. Also, we all know that the ships had 'options' but these options were not really options were they? They were orders... you comply or we attack basically.

The ships' destination was Gaza, not Israel. Israel has absolutely no right to give ANY ship any order in INTERNATIONAL waters. Simple.

I guess Israel will say it's the world against them again and no one understands....

Sweet dreams - I'm sure little things like this 'squirmish' and the plight of Gaza won't trouble your sleep.

dimitrispearljam · May 2010

rebornFixer wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

I hope Turkey seizes the investigation, since they have the right to. Israel has no right to conduct any of this investigation and should hand over everything related to this that Turkey asks for.

Agreed, although a third party might be an even better idea.

already Turkey demand extraordinary council of UN..

Israel Attacks Aid Convoy - Many Deaths Reported

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