Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero
Comments
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scb you have a habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths thats why my replys are limited with you..
in all honesty there is no hate from me towards you but I don't care to dance around your questions to my opinions when you add thing like the Jewish thing or the german thing, my opinion is just that ...my opinion.
Godfather.0 -
For fuck's sake.....0
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Godfather. wrote:cosmo that was just a joke pointed at you with no ill feelings / in one post your a muslim supporter and the other you want these guys (only the bad guys) to suffer not to mention I have read post by someone on here who was saying that the terrorist may have a good reason to do what they did at this point I don't really believe most of you on here have no real interest in these events and issues we have posted about I think you all just enjoy debate,if the shoe was on the other foot I think you guys would attack anybody that disagreed with you just for the sake of debate...and thats why I don't think I have to give scb or anybody else my reasons for my opinion,what would be the point ? you guys attacked Aerial for no damn good reason at all other than to get a rise out of her then when I do it to you all you act butt hurt or better than everyone else,if thats the game you want to play....cool lets play, I'm in
Godfather.
I don't argue for the sake of arguement. I counter points that are made... in this specific case, the point you initially made about rounding them all up and sending them back to where they came from and the opinion expressed about leaving everything about them in their country of origin. I believe this is an opinion that is dangerous and counter to the foundations of America. I pointed out historical examples about this type of viewpoints towards entire groups of people, both in Europe against the Jew and in America against the Japanese.
Your view is that since Islamic fundamentalist attacked us, ALL Muslims must be a part of it. I don't see it that way. To me... it would be just as stupid to believe that all Christians were Klansmen or Neo-Nazis... or since most serial kilers have been white males, all white males must be serial killers. That is ridiculous logic, whether you are talking about Muslims or Christians or serial killers. I can differentiate between criminals and ethnicities.
Personally, i don't care about your opinions. i am just trying to get you to explain the reasoning and logic you employ that gets you to the opinion that building a Mosque is an act against America. And the whole, 'Leaving everything from their former country over there and not bringing it here'. If it is not okay with you for them to build a Mosque... why is it okay for Jews to build Jewish Temples? Your logic would state, they should leave their Judaism back in Jeruselem. Your reasoning makes no sense to me and is contradictory at best... discrimatory at worst. I'm giving you a chance to explain yourself, rather than simply accepting the self-portrait you paint yourself as an ignorant, prejudiced person.
Now, regarding my statements about Sheik Belushi... I would feel the same way if he were Irish, German, Italian, Japanese, Nigerian or whatever. My views are aimed at his actions, not his ethnicity or religion. There is no contradiction on my part.
Also, I DO have real interests in issues involving discrimination, even if it is percieved to be good. The Germans believed they were doing what was best for Germany at that time. Just as the Americans believed that shipping Americans of Japanese descent to internment camps were in the best interests of America at that time. They may have made sense back then.. but, do you believe they were the right things to do? You are making the same assumptions that those people made in the past and are following in the same footsteps as them.
And YES... I am a supporter of LAW ABIDING Muslims. The same way I support law abiding Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Aetheists. I do not prescribe to any religion, but i believe in the freedom of religion granted to all Americans by our Constitution. I believe in proscuting the criminals, not the religion.
You can be prejudice and hold feelings of discrimination towards others... that is your right. But, don't expect me to sit silent about it.Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!0 -
Godfather. wrote:scb you have a habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths thats why my replys are limited with you..
in all honesty there is no hate from me towards you but I don't care to dance around your questions to my opinions when you add thing like the Jewish thing or the german thing, my opinion is just that ...my opinion.
Godfather.
Hey Godfather I took the time to go through this entire thread and this should be right up your alley about the THING. It's incredible what has been said and you've said so far but you may like this one.
The first or the second THING
Peace*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)0 -
aerial wrote:No I am not...I am saying we should be Cautious ....
Cautious of WHAT??? OK. Let me 'splain it to you, Lucy... because you are obviously not aware of what it is like here in New York. Everywhere you go... there are people of different races and ethnicities, and with many differing religious beliefs. There are many, many Muslim people. My son's best friend at school is Shar, Muslim. There are tons of Muslims. We are to be cautious of them building a COMMUNITY CENTER AND A MOSQUE? You don't think that stating we should be cautious of this is hateful, fear-mongering BULLSHIT?
I personally knew four people who were killed on 9/11... was at two funerals.... Horrible. Most everyone I know (in NY) knew someone who died that day....
Additionally, I knew one person well who was killed years before when the Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Her name was Monica Smith. She was six months pregnant. I knew her, her husband and two of her three brothers through a close friendship with her sister in law with whom i worked for four years leading up to the bombing that day. We waited ALL DAY LONG to hear from Monica. We heard about the bombing... I told "Cara", her sister in law, not to worry... Then we heard which tower... I told her not to worry.. then we heard the basement... i told her not to worry... Cara and I had plans to go out that night... they never heard from Monica... she was dead... Her wake, with her pregnant belly in the casket was one of the most heart-wrenching of experiences... I asked Cara what she thought of this mosque.
She is not opposed.
But you know... Monica's family was from Equador. She was buried back in Equador. Her parents speak very little English... so I guess they all had no right being here anyway, huh?
ps- Did you read this article??
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/07/new.yo ... index.html
Mosque to go up near New York's ground zero
By Nicole Bliman, CNN
May 7, 2010 3:19 a.m. EDT
Here are some important parts...
The 12 members who were at the meeting voted unanimously to support the project. Community board members are appointed by the borough president and serve as advisers to the borough president and the mayor's office.
"Three hundred of the victims were Muslim, that's 10 percent of the victims," she said. "We are Americans too. The 9/11 tragedy hurt everybody including the Muslim community. We are all in this together and together we have to fight against extremism and terrorism."
Cordoba House is still in its early stages of development. The American Society for Muslim Advancement is hoping to raise funds for the center to be completed in three to five years.Post edited by GTFLYGIRL on0 -
Godfather. wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:i tried to get this thread back on topic by posting a credible article about it and nobody replied to anything in the article...i think i am going to head to the gym, i think i can have a better conversation with a stack of weights and a treadmill television...
if what the muslims are saying is really in their hearts thats good but I have to agree that it would be a great disrespect to ALL the family's of the victims.
Godfather.
Dude, how in hell can you say it's a disrespect to ALL the families of the victims when MANY OF THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES SUPPORT IT?? Some of the victims and/or their families are actually part of the group that's bringing this there. Seriously - how can you tell people who were victims of these attacks that their way of healing their own lives and community is not appropriate? YOU are the one who is disrespecting the victims.0 -
scb wrote:
Dude, how in hell can you say it's a disrespect to ALL the families of the victims when MANY OF THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES SUPPORT IT?? Some of the victims and/or their families are actually part of the group that's bringing this there. Seriously - how can you tell people who were victims of these attacks that their way of healing their own lives and community is not appropriate? YOU are the one who is disrespecting the victims.
Absolutely.0 -
Godfather. wrote:scb you have a habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths thats why my replys are limited with you..
in all honesty there is no hate from me towards you but I don't care to dance around your questions to my opinions when you add thing like the Jewish thing or the german thing, my opinion is just that ...my opinion.
Godfather.
:roll: :roll:
I have only tried to clarify what you are saying. When you refuse to be clear, I have no choice but to understand what YOU say however I understand it. And I can't help but notice that most everyone else around here understands it in the same way - and you don't clarify for them either.
And talk about putting words in people's mouths!! What the fuck are you talking about, accusing me of "adding the Jewish thing"?? I'm not even the one who fucking said that. Geeze Louise!! Try to get a grip on reality!0 -
GTFLYGIRL wrote:scb wrote:
Dude, how in hell can you say it's a disrespect to ALL the families of the victims when MANY OF THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES SUPPORT IT?? Some of the victims and/or their families are actually part of the group that's bringing this there. Seriously - how can you tell people who were victims of these attacks that their way of healing their own lives and community is not appropriate? YOU are the one who is disrespecting the victims.
Absolutely.
I'm starting to think we should require exams in basic logic and reasoning before anyone over a certain age or IQ - including those who were born here - can become a citizen.0 -
scb wrote:Godfather. wrote:gimmesometruth27 wrote:i tried to get this thread back on topic by posting a credible article about it and nobody replied to anything in the article...i think i am going to head to the gym, i think i can have a better conversation with a stack of weights and a treadmill television...
if what the muslims are saying is really in their hearts thats good but I have to agree that it would be a great disrespect to ALL the family's of the victims.
Godfather.
Dude, how in hell can you say it's a disrespect to ALL the families of the victims when MANY OF THE VICTIMS AND THEIR FAMILIES SUPPORT IT?? Some of the victims and/or their families are actually part of the group that's bringing this there. Seriously - how can you tell people who were victims of these attacks that their way of healing their own lives and community is not appropriate? YOU are the one who is disrespecting the victims.
good grief I'm glad we're not neighbors you would drive me crazy.
that is just my thought on it,if some the family's of the victims don't mind....cool but what about the other family's that do mind ? do they count in this at all ?
Godfather.0 -
GTFLYGIRL wrote:aerial wrote:No I am not...I am saying we should be Cautious ....
Cautious of WHAT??? OK. Let me 'splain it to you, Lucy... because you are obviously not aware of what it is like here in New York. Everywhere you go... there are people of different races and ethnicities, and with many differing religious beliefs. There are many, many Muslim people. My son's best friend at school is Shar, Muslim. There are tons of Muslims. We are to be cautious of them building a COMMUNITY CENTER AND A MOSQUE? You don't think that stating we should be cautious of this is hateful, fear-mongering BULLSHIT?
I personally knew four people who were killed on 9/11... was at two funerals.... Horrible. Most everyone I know (in NY) knew someone who died that day....
Additionally, I knew one person well who was killed years before when the Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Her name was Monica Smith. She was six months pregnant. I knew her, her husband and two of her three brothers through a close friendship with her sister in law with whom i worked for four years leading up to the bombing that day. We waited ALL DAY LONG to hear from Monica. We heard about the bombing... I told "Cara", her sister in law, not to worry... Then we heard which tower... I told her not to worry.. then we heard the basement... i told her not to worry... Cara and I had plans to go out that night... they never heard from Monica... she was dead... Her wake, with her pregnant belly in the casket was one of the most heart-wrenching of experiences... I asked Cara what she thought of this mosque.
She is not opposed.
But you know... Monica's family was from Equador. She was buried back in Equador. Her parents speak very little English... so I guess they all had no right being here anyway, huh?
ps- Did you read this article??
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/07/new.yo ... index.html
Mosque to go up near New York's ground zero
By Nicole Bliman, CNN
May 7, 2010 3:19 a.m. EDT
New York (CNN) -- Plans to build a mosque two blocks away from ground zero have set off an emotional debate among area residents and relatives of victims of the September 11, 2001 terror attacks.
Cordoba House project calls for a 15-story community center including a mosque, performance art center, gym, swimming pool and other public spaces.
The project is a collaboration between the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, both of which work to improve relations with followers of the religion.
The two groups presented their vision to part of the Community Board of lower Manhattan on Wednesday night.
Ro Sheffe, a board member who attended the meeting, said the project did not need to get the board's approval.
"They own the land, and their plans don't have any zoning changes," Sheffe said. "They came to us for our opinions and to let us know their plans. It was purely voluntary on their part."
The 12 members who were at the meeting voted unanimously to support the project. Community board members are appointed by the borough president and serve as advisers to the borough president and the mayor's office.
Daisy Khan, executive director of the Muslim society, described her vision of a center led by Muslims, but serving the community as a whole.
"It will have a real community feel, to celebrate the pluralism in the United States, as well as in the Islamic religion," Khan said. "It will also serve as a major platform for amplifying the silent voice of the majority of Muslims who have nothing to do with extremist ideologies. It will counter the extremist momentum."
The need for the center is twofold, Khan said, because it will support the needs of the growing Muslim community.
"The time for a center like this has come because Islam is an American religion," Khan said. "We need to take the 9/11 tragedy and turn it into something very positive."
Sheffe said a community center for lower Manhattan residents is "desperately needed." The area was mostly commercial, Sheffe said, but as more people move downtown, the lack of residential amenities is a problem.
The project got mixed reviews from families and friends of September 11 victims.
"I think it's the right thing to do," said Marvin Bethea, who was a paramedic at ground zero. "I lost 16 friends down there. But Muslims also got killed on 9/11. It would be a good sign of faith that we're not condemning all Muslims and that the Muslims who did this happened to be extremists. As a black man, I know what it's like to be discriminated against when you haven't done anything."
Herbert Ouida, whose son was killed in the attacks, supports the project as a way to bridge cultural divide.
"I understand the anger, the bitterness and hatred, but it only generates more hatred," Ouida said. "Such a large part of the world has this faith, and to say anyone who has this faith is a terrorist, it's terrible."
Others decried the idea of building a mosque so close to where their relatives died.
"Lower Manhattan should be made into a shrine for the people who died there," said Michael Valentin, a retired city detective who worked at ground zero. "It breaks my heart for the families who have to put up with this. I understand they're [building] it in a respectful way, but it just shouldn't be down there."
Others such as Barry Zelman said the site's location will be a painful reminder.
"[The 9/11 terrorists] did this in the name of Islam," Zelman said. "It's a sacred ground where these people died, where my brother was murdered, and to be in the shadows of that religion, it's just hypocritical and sacrilegious. "
However, Khan emphasized that the attacks killed Muslims, too.
"Three hundred of the victims were Muslim, that's 10 percent of the victims," she said. "We are Americans too. The 9/11 tragedy hurt everybody including the Muslim community. We are all in this together and together we have to fight against extremism and terrorism."
Cordoba House is still in its early stages of development. The American Society for Muslim Advancement is hoping to raise funds for the center to be completed in three to five years.
bin laden or what ever his name is has said through video that there are sleepers through out America,do you think he's kidding ? maybe that is all she means, not all muslims but which ones ?
Godfather.0 -
Godfather. wrote:
if what the muslims are saying is really in their hearts thats good but I have to agree that it would be a great disrespect to ALL the family's of the victims.
Godfather.Godfather. wrote:if some the family's of the victims don't mind....cool but what about the other family's that do mind ? do they count in this at all ?
Godfather.
Did you not sat ALL? Honestly.... what the hell? Now you are changing it up?
Whatever0 -
Was Timothy McVeigh Muslim?0
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Godfather. wrote:bin laden or what ever his name is has said through video that there are sleepers through out America,do you think he's kidding ? maybe that is all she means, not all muslims but which ones ?
Godfather.
Of course there are sleepers... but wtf does that have to do with a community center and a mosque?
This is somehow going to serve to aid and embolden terrorists?0 -
GTFLYGIRL wrote:Is Timothy McVeigh Muslim?
I don't know but he is dead right...as he should be ?..I think so.
Godfather.0 -
Godfather. wrote:good grief I'm glad we're not neighbors you would drive me crazy.
that is just my thought on it,if some the family's of the victims don't mind....cool but what about the other family's that do mind ? do they count in this at all ?
Godfather.
You wouldn't have to worry about me driving you crazy because I'd have killed you already.
Yes, the other victims count. But this country was founded on the principle that our rights end where others' begin and we can't infringe on this community's right to heal as they see fit, nor on anyone's right to practice their religion.
What if the victims' families were offended by Muslims living in Manhattan - would they have the right to ban them? What if the victims' families were offended by religion in general, based on the religious extremism that supposedly inprired the attacks? Would they have the right to ban all places of worship in the neighborhood?
What if it's really a bunch of hateful, fearful people from Florida and California - who weren't even there when the towers were hit and don't personally know any of the direct victims - who oppose this church in this far-away community? Should they have the right to prevent it from being built?0 -
Godfather. wrote:GTFLYGIRL wrote:aerial wrote:No I am not...I am saying we should be Cautious ....
Cautious of WHAT??? OK. Let me 'splain it to you, Lucy... because you are obviously not aware of what it is like here in New York. Everywhere you go... there are people of different races and ethnicities, and with many differing religious beliefs. There are many, many Muslim people. My son's best friend at school is Shar, Muslim. There are tons of Muslims. We are to be cautious of them building a COMMUNITY CENTER AND A MOSQUE? You don't think that stating we should be cautious of this is hateful, fear-mongering BULLSHIT?
I personally knew four people who were killed on 9/11... was at two funerals.... Horrible. Most everyone I know (in NY) knew someone who died that day....
Additionally, I knew one person well who was killed years before when the Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Her name was Monica Smith. She was six months pregnant. I knew her, her husband and two of her three brothers through a close friendship with her sister in law with whom i worked for four years leading up to the bombing that day. We waited ALL DAY LONG to hear from Monica. We heard about the bombing... I told "Cara", her sister in law, not to worry... Then we heard which tower... I told her not to worry.. then we heard the basement... i told her not to worry... Cara and I had plans to go out that night... they never heard from Monica... she was dead... Her wake, with her pregnant belly in the casket was one of the most heart-wrenching of experiences... I asked Cara what she thought of this mosque.
She is not opposed.
But you know... Monica's family was from Equador. She was buried back in Equador. Her parents speak very little English... so I guess they all had no right being here anyway, huh?
bin laden or what ever his name is has said through video that there are sleepers through out America,do you think he's kidding ? maybe that is all she means, not all muslims but which ones ?
Godfather.
How do we know you and aerial aren't part of the sleeper cells? Maybe we should be cautious of you....0 -
GTFLYGIRL wrote:Godfather. wrote:bin laden or what ever his name is has said through video that there are sleepers through out America,do you think he's kidding ? maybe that is all she means, not all muslims but which ones ?
Godfather.
Of course there are sleepers... but wtf does that have to do with a community center and a mosque?
This is somehow going to serve to aid and embolden terrorists?
now that you mention it are you a 100% sure it will not ? it would be a great front...
Godfather.Post edited by Godfather. on0 -
scb.......so glad we are not neighbors
Godfather.0 -
g under p wrote:Godfather. wrote:scb you have a habit of trying to put words in peoples mouths thats why my replys are limited with you..
in all honesty there is no hate from me towards you but I don't care to dance around your questions to my opinions when you add thing like the Jewish thing or the german thing, my opinion is just that ...my opinion.
Godfather.
Hey Godfather I took the time to go through this entire thread and this should be right up your alley about the THING. It's incredible what has been said and you've said so far but you may like this one.
The first or the second THING
Peace0
This discussion has been closed.
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