Health Care vote???

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  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    know1 wrote:
    I have health insurance through my work. My wife's work doesn't offer it so we buy a private policy for her because it's cheaper than adding her to my insurance.

    I guarantee you that private policy's rates will go through the roof because of this legislation.


    they might go up initially but once the mandate kicks in they will go down but with more competition and the exchanges price will stay fair and go down in many cases
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    slightofjeff wrote:
    scb wrote:
    You cannot be denied (hopefully) lifesaving medical attention. You can be denied the preventative care that would have kept you from needing lifesaving medical attention to begin with. Medicaid is primarily for pregnant women and children, not for adult men and non-pregnant women. Care to point me in the direction of these free clinics to which everyone has access? Have you ever tried to access these social programs of which you speak? It's not as easy as you seem to think. This is just a myth that middle-class and wealthy people choose to believe to make themselves feel better about supporting such a dichotomous system. Denial is not the answer.

    If you'll go back and check my posts ... I'm not arguing that reform wasn't/isn't needed ... I'm on your side. You don't need to sell me.

    My initial contribution to this thread was to tell one of our foreign friends, whose only exposure to the US health care system was apparently a Michael Moore documentary, that we don't really have poor people dying on every street corner here. I was just trying to make sure the problem was stated accurately, and not hyperbolically.

    That's it. That's all I was trying to say. Outside of that, you don't need to convince me of the need for reform.


    again you are misrepresenting a bit

    our greek friend said that he was not solely basing his opinion on Michael Moore.

    plus what others have said many people die from lack of or under insurance

    medicaid is for woman with children and the disabled

    I am a mental health worker and have MANY clients that do not have insurance, they do not get medicaid they have no money and require very expensive psychotropic medications the state often denies their disability and society foots the bill in more ways then one...... either way

    take cancer, without insurance you don't get checks ups, then you start having pains and go to the ER and the discover that you have some type of stage 3 cancer, they approve you for medicaid and start treatment but by that time it is too late, the cancer has progressed and you eventually die from something that could have been treated and saved your life. This happens everday in this country.
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    slightofjeff wrote:

    I'd like to see some specific examples. You cannot be denied medical attention for lack of coverage. It is against the law. If you are poor, you can be on medicaid. There are free clinics and discounted clinics for those who can't afford anything else.

    The system definitely needs to be reformed, no doubt ... but there are already MANY, MANY social programs in place to help people who can't otherwise afford it.

    Also, not even close to being a debate.
    slightofjeff wrote:
    In my experience, you can pretty much set up any kind of payment plan with the hospital. Pay them $20 a month, and they'll get off your back. You might be paying $20 a month until the day you die, but you won't be submitted to collections.

    I think the American "people who died because they didn't have health coverage" stories are akin to the stories in other Universal Health Care countries about "people who died because they sat on a waiting list for surgery."

    I'm sure it happens, but not as often as the people telling such stories want to have you believe. You can find isolated incidents to make a case for anything.
    slightofjeff wrote:

    I'd like to see some specific examples. You cannot be denied medical attention for lack of coverage. It is against the law. If you are poor, you can be on medicaid. There are free clinics and discounted clinics for those who can't afford anything else.

    The system definitely needs to be reformed, no doubt ... but there are already MANY, MANY social programs in place to help people who can't otherwise afford it.

    Also, not even close to being a debate.


    I hope you are joking, $20 a month for the rest of your life to keep the bill collectors off you back... it is like paying the bully on the playground not to beat you up.

    but again both incorrect, go hang out at a homeless shelter for a day and see if you still feel the same way about access to medical treatment and social programs
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:
    For some strange reason....

    I have a strange feeling, in 4 years, I am going to be taking a beating..... hehehehehe

    We will see....

    2014 watch it go to fire???

    actually in 2014 the plan will be almost in full effect so it be better then say 2012 or 2013

    the years leading up there will be more uncertainty and changes made along the way

    in fact I suspect that they will be tweaking health care throughout Obama's term or terms, the hard part is done now they can make smaller changes to improve the it as they go
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    KDH12 wrote:
    I hope you are joking, $20 a month for the rest of your life to keep the bill collectors off you back... it is like paying the bully on the playground not to beat you up.

    but again both incorrect, go hang out at a homeless shelter for a day and see if you still feel the same way about access to medical treatment and social programs

    I think it's a good thing somebody is taking on health care reform. I think there are definite areas that could be improved. I don't think the United States was euthanizing the poor until 2 p.m. yesterday. I think that's an exaggeration.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • OnTheEdge
    OnTheEdge Posts: 1,300
    Just heard on Greta that up to 14 attorney generals are filing suit against the federal governments mandate act in the bill for being unconstitutional.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    mb262200 wrote:
    Just heard on Greta that up to 14 attorney generals are filing suit against the federal governments mandate act in the bill for being unconstitutional.

    fucking lawyers. :roll:

    oh...
    ...i do believe the correct term is attorneys general. 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    I was sort of wondering about the Constitutionality of such a provision. T'will be interesting. I'd guess nothing comes of it, though.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • Starfall
    Starfall Posts: 548
    catefrances wrote:
    mb262200 wrote:
    Just heard on Greta that up to 14 attorney generals are filing suit against the federal governments mandate act in the bill for being unconstitutional.

    fucking lawyers. :roll:

    oh...
    ...i do believe the correct term is attorneys general. 8-)

    Yeah typical Republicans wasting tax dollars on a futile quest. Last time this happened, we got subjected to a near-pornographic Independent Prosecutor's report and stained blue dresses.
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    ajedigecko wrote:
    :roll: I asked a legitimate question. It's a shame that your lack of understanding of and empathy for the lives of others keeps you from being able to contribute anything contrsuctive to the conversation. I guess some people's brains can only make sense of the world through stereotypes, like children do. (Though children still have more empathy.)

    i gave a legitimate answer. there is no lack of understanding and or lack of empathy for others, who make logical and common sense decisions. i believe an important aspect a human can have is to fall on their face and get back up....dignity.

    to address your comment about "stereotypes"....i base my comments on the sample space to which i am exposed. the individuals i see and work with are a direct correlation of the problems with our health care.

    as for "shame"...no need to feel shame for me... i am enjoying a fresh pack of cigarettes.

    Your implication that those who don't have an extra $20/month to spare don't have it because they decided to spend it on frivolous material things indicates to me a lack of understanding and empathy for the many, many people who live in poverty despite working hard and making common sense decisions. There is more to life and to this issue than just the sample space to which you are exposed.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    TriumphantAngel wrote:
    about time.

    welcome to a civilized world where hopefully 700,000 people won't go bankrupt every year due to medical bills. welcome to a civilized world where we don't have to keep putting our trust in the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies who have been ripping off people for years.

    the current system is deplorable. an absolute disgrace. i welcome the governments involvement in a system that has been such a failure for so many years it would be laughable if it wasn't so damn pathetic. no one has come up with any working alternatives so far. lets try this and see how it pans out. i've worked in a country that has universal health care and one that doesn't, and i know what i prefer. government run health care is not without some problems either, but I've worked in a country that has universal health care and im working in a country that doesn't. so i have experienced both.

    the one thing i will say about the Country that did have it....people that require urgent life saving non elective surgery are treated as a priority. the same thing does not happen here.

    i hope that one day people realize that while they have been so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all they have been doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare today. the health insurance companies do not give a shit about you. if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health.

    i never did get that. such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health? it's not like what we have now is working or anything special. people really preferred it when your Insurance company could get away with doing anything to decline coverage and decline benefits???

    what good is having the best doctors in the world, when the people that need them the most can't get treatment?

    i've said it before and i'll say it again. if you don't trust the government to look after your health, i trust you won't be a hypocrite and call government paid/run emergency service personnel, and their equipment when you get in a bad situation. we'd hate you to not trust us with your health, so don't bother. you can't pick and choose just because it suits YOU. i am so tired of selfish people who only think about themselves.

    and you are selfish. you don't give a rats ass about your 45 million uninsured fellow americans. all you care about is yourselves. this whole debate has caused such anger and animosity. it's really divided the country, funny how the thought of your countryman finally having access to a basic human right, being timely and affordable health care, can actually cause such anger.

    and why don't you care about the billions of dollars of our money that we send over to Israel each year to help fund their illegal occupation. why aren't you more vocal about that? and why don't you care about all the billions and billions of dollars that's being poured into Iraq and Afghanistan to fund those wars? money we can never get back. its gone forever. spent, and it doesn't look like stopping anytime soon.

    seems to me some are ok with the government wasting all that money, but when it comes to your fellow americans having access to affordable and timely healthcare, you really don't give a fuck.

    i see plenty of benefits for this and i'm sure there's still work that needs to be done to get it all working properly and fairly. but it's a start.

    :clap::clap::clap:
  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    catefrances wrote:
    mb262200 wrote:
    Just heard on Greta that up to 14 attorney generals are filing suit against the federal governments mandate act in the bill for being unconstitutional.

    fucking lawyers. :roll:

    oh...
    ...i do believe the correct term is attorneys general. 8-)


    it will be a fruit effort and a waste of time and money, instead catching real crooks and corrupts folks

    even if it went to the supreme court I doubt they would hear it

    if that is the case they could sue against other mandates like taxes in general, including state taxes, social security and medicare all of which are taken out of my check without permission
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • KDH12
    KDH12 Posts: 2,096
    slightofjeff wrote:
    KDH12 wrote:
    I hope you are joking, $20 a month for the rest of your life to keep the bill collectors off you back... it is like paying the bully on the playground not to beat you up.

    but again both incorrect, go hang out at a homeless shelter for a day and see if you still feel the same way about access to medical treatment and social programs

    I think it's a good thing somebody is taking on health care reform. I think there are definite areas that could be improved. I don't think the United States was euthanizing the poor until 2 p.m. yesterday. I think that's an exaggeration.


    again you are MISREPRESENTING

    no one here said euthanize, I gave a legitimate example of cancer which you dismissed and took it to the extreme :roll:
    **CUBS GO ALL THE WAY IN......never **
  • ajedigecko
    ajedigecko \m/deplorable af \m/ Posts: 2,431
    scb wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    :roll: I asked a legitimate question. It's a shame that your lack of understanding of and empathy for the lives of others keeps you from being able to contribute anything contrsuctive to the conversation. I guess some people's brains can only make sense of the world through stereotypes, like children do. (Though children still have more empathy.)

    i gave a legitimate answer. there is no lack of understanding and or lack of empathy for others, who make logical and common sense decisions. i believe an important aspect a human can have is to fall on their face and get back up....dignity.

    to address your comment about "stereotypes"....i base my comments on the sample space to which i am exposed. the individuals i see and work with are a direct correlation of the problems with our health care.

    as for "shame"...no need to feel shame for me... i am enjoying a fresh pack of cigarettes.

    Your implication that those who don't have an extra $20/month to spare don't have it because they decided to spend it on frivolous material things indicates to me a lack of understanding and empathy for the many, many people who live in poverty despite working hard and making common sense decisions. There is more to life and to this issue than just the sample space to which you are exposed.
    incorrect. i made no implication about the poor. i stated a fact, with regards to the people around me who complain about the inability to obtain health insurance or the cost of health insurance. yet, they purchase unnecessary items and engage in cumulative behavior that will only increase their probability of contracting an illness/disease.
    live and let live...unless it violates the pearligious doctrine.
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Obama signing health care bill into law. I think this is an improvement, but I still don't think this will end the debate on health care. I still say the only way government will truly work for the people is ban all lobbyist. I do however hope this works out for my American neighbours.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • MayDay10
    MayDay10 Posts: 11,856
    What's in the Bill

    The $940 billion health-care overhaul will take nearly a decade to roll out in full. A look at the key parts of the bill and when they go into effect.
    2010
    Coverage
     Subsidies begin for small businesses to provide coverage to employees.
     Insurance companies barred from denying coverage to children with pre-existing illness.
     Children permitted to stay on their parents' insurance policies until their 26th birthday.
    2011
    Coverage
     Set up long-term care program under which people pay premiums into system for at least five years and become eligible for support payments if they need assistance in daily living.
    Taxes and fees
     Drug makers face annual fee of $2.5 billion (rises in subsequent years).
    2013
    Taxes and fees
     New Medicare taxes on individuals earning more than $200,000 a year and couples filing jointly earning more than $250,000 a year.
     Tax on wages rises to 2.35% from 1.45%.
     New 3.8% tax on unearned income such as dividends and interest.
     Excise tax of 2.3% imposed on sale of medical devices.
    Cost control
     Medicare pilot program begins to test bundled payments for care, in a bid to pay for quality rather than quantity of services.
    2014
    Coverage
     Create exchanges where people without employer coverage, as well as small businesses, can shop for health coverage. Insurance companies barred from denying coverage to anyone with pre-existing illness.
     Requirement begins for most people to have health insurance. Subsidies begin for lower and middle-income people. People at 133% of federal poverty level pay maximum of 3% of income for coverage. People at 400% of poverty level pay up to 9.5% of income. (Poverty level currently is about $22,000 for a family of four.)
     Medicaid, the federal-state program for the poor, expands to all Americans with income up to 133% of federal poverty level.
     Subsidies for small businesses to provide coverage increase. Businesses with 10 or fewer employees and average annual wages of less than $25,000 receive tax credit of up to 50% of employer's contribution. Tax credits phase out for larger businesses.
    Taxes and fees
     Employers with more than 50 employees that don't provide affordable coverage must pay a fine if employees receive tax credits to buy insurance. Fine is up to $3,000 per employee, excluding first 30 employees.
     Insurance industry must pay annual fee of $8 billion (rises in subsequent years).
    Cost control
     Independent Medicare board must begin to submit recommendations to curb Medicare spending, if costs are rising faster than inflation.
    2016
    Taxes and fees
     Penalty for those who don't carry coverage rises to 2.5% of taxable income or $695, whichever is greater.
    2017
    Coverage
     Businesses with more than 100 employees can buy coverage on insurance exchanges, if state permits it.
    2018
    Taxes and fees
     Excise tax of 40% imposed on health plans valued at more than $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family coverage.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    ajedigecko wrote:
    scb wrote:
    ajedigecko wrote:
    i gave a legitimate answer. there is no lack of understanding and or lack of empathy for others, who make logical and common sense decisions. i believe an important aspect a human can have is to fall on their face and get back up....dignity.

    to address your comment about "stereotypes"....i base my comments on the sample space to which i am exposed. the individuals i see and work with are a direct correlation of the problems with our health care.

    as for "shame"...no need to feel shame for me... i am enjoying a fresh pack of cigarettes.

    Your implication that those who don't have an extra $20/month to spare don't have it because they decided to spend it on frivolous material things indicates to me a lack of understanding and empathy for the many, many people who live in poverty despite working hard and making common sense decisions. There is more to life and to this issue than just the sample space to which you are exposed.
    incorrect. i made no implication about the poor. i stated a fact, with regards to the people around me who complain about the inability to obtain health insurance or the cost of health insurance. yet, they purchase unnecessary items and engage in cumulative behavior that will only increase their probability of contracting an illness/disease.

    Whatever. We both know you're perpetuating a stereotype. And that is counter-productive to any real understanding of others or their siutations... and that's not at all constructive... and it's childish.
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    The more I learn about this bill the more I hate what this country has become. Very few people in power are good people who care about average citizens. What a shame that it has come to this and I find it extremely discouraging.

    This bill is NOT a step towards single-payer. It is the opposite. It cements insurance companies into our government, while they continue to take advantage of people for disgustingly large profits.

    I really hope that this bill is not upheld by the constitution.
  • FiveB247x
    FiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    I don't necessarily disagree with everything you state, but on what grounds specifically should this be unconstitutional? I mean if you feel it's infringement, then shouldn't people not have to get car insurance? If you feel the government doesn't have the authority, then shouldn't the FED, US National Bank, post office and others all be disbanded? My point is, unconstitutional doesn't mean you simply disagree or don't like something.
    Eliot Rosewater wrote:
    The more I learn about this bill the more I hate what this country has become. Very few people in power are good people who care about average citizens. What a shame that it has come to this and I find it extremely discouraging.

    This bill is NOT a step towards single-payer. It is the opposite. It cements insurance companies into our government, while they continue to take advantage of people for disgustingly large profits.

    I really hope that this bill is not held up by the constitution.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • Eliot Rosewater
    Eliot Rosewater Posts: 2,659
    FiveB247x wrote:
    I don't necessarily disagree with everything you state, but on what grounds specifically should this be unconstitutional? I mean if you feel it's infringement, then shouldn't people not have to get car insurance? If you feel the government doesn't have the authority, then shouldn't the FED, US National Bank, post office and others all be disbanded? My point is, unconstitutional doesn't mean you simply disagree or don't like something.
    Well I think there is an enormous difference between driving a car and simply being alive while you happen to live in America, and happen not to be Native American, and happen not to be religious.

    I have health insurance and from my understanding this bill does not affect me at all.

    But I think it is absolutely wrong to require someone to directly purchase something they do not want.

    I'm under no requirement to purchase car insurance, UNLESS I want to drive.

    I'm under no requirement to buy a stamp UNLESS I want a letter delivered.

    Yet under this legislation many will be required to pay insurance companies for services they do not want (or in some cases do not need). What is their option? Honestly, what is their option? If they are alive they must pay insurance companies? Insane. And I'm no lawyer but it certainly doesn't sound constitutional to me.

    But it sure sounds like a fine way to pick up a bunch of new customers for your business now doesn't it?

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