Health Care vote???

slightofjeff wrote:

scb wrote:

You cannot be denied (hopefully) lifesaving medical attention. You can be denied the preventative care that would have kept you from needing lifesaving medical attention to begin with. Medicaid is primarily for pregnant women and children, not for adult men and non-pregnant women. Care to point me in the direction of these free clinics to which everyone has access? Have you ever tried to access these social programs of which you speak? It's not as easy as you seem to think. This is just a myth that middle-class and wealthy people choose to believe to make themselves feel better about supporting such a dichotomous system. Denial is not the answer.

If you'll go back and check my posts ... I'm not arguing that reform wasn't/isn't needed ... I'm on your side. You don't need to sell me.

My initial contribution to this thread was to tell one of our foreign friends, whose only exposure to the US health care system was apparently a Michael Moore documentary, that we don't really have poor people dying on every street corner here. I was just trying to make sure the problem was stated accurately, and not hyperbolically.

That's it. That's all I was trying to say. Outside of that, you don't need to convince me of the need for reform.

I don't think you're arguing against health reform. I, too, am just trying to state the problem accurately, because I think people don't realize just how bad it is. 45,000 extra deaths per year due to poverty is significant. Maybe it doesn't mean we have poor people dying on every street corner..... I don't know; I haven't counted the street corners.

For anyone who didn't read the article posted by Starfall, here are the highlights:

"45,000 deaths per year in the United States are associated with the lack of health insurance."

"the uninsured have a 40 percent higher risk of death than those with private health insurance as a result of being unable to obtain necessary medical care."

"uninsured cancer patients are 1.6 times more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis than those with private insurance."

"It has become lethal to be uninsured, said Woolhandler, an associate professor of medicine at Harvard. 'If you can get good primary care for your high blood pressure, your high cholesterol, diabetes -- those don't have to be lethal conditions," she said. "If you fail to get good ongoing primary care, you may end up with complications and even death.'"

Clearly, access to Medicaid, free clinics, and social programs is not as good as people would like to think.

I have health insurance through my work. My wife's work doesn't offer it so we buy a private policy for her because it's cheaper than adding her to my insurance.

I guarantee you that private policy's rates will go through the roof because of this legislation.

scb wrote:

slightofjeff wrote:

scb wrote:

In my experience, these clinics exist more in theory than in practice, which is why people have to wait until their condition worsens and/or go to an emergency room.

Edit to add for slightofjeff: Those who don't qualify for coverage such as Medicaid are billed, harassed, and sent to collections. The only way they don't have to pay for their surgery is if they die first.

In my experience, you can pretty much set up any kind of payment plan with the hospital. Pay them $20 a month, and they'll get off your back. You might be paying $20 a month until the day you die, but you won't be submitted to collections.

I think the American "people who died because they didn't have health coverage" stories are akin to the stories in other Universal Health Care countries about "people who died because they sat on a waiting list for surgery."

I'm sure it happens, but not as often as the people telling such stories want to have you believe. You can find isolated incidents to make a case for anything.

What if you don't have $20/month to spare?

i know i do not have an extra $20 to spare.....i need my cell phone, cable tv,and internet service.

Interesting point by Krugman, if the Bill is so terrible for the economy why didn't the market act accordingly today?

FiveB247x wrote:

The market is mere gambling and not always a reflection of everything we do in politics or as a society. The value of the dollar has fallen drastically in the world markets, should we then assume our nation is no longer the sole super power with wide-spanning grips? Sounds pretty silly when you put it those terms huh?

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Interesting point by Krugman, if the Bill is so terrible for the economy why didn't the market act accordingly today?

I hear you but the market does tend to react in the short term to political decisions that will have an impact on it.

I want to say just one thing: the right to be cured is a basic and inalienable human right.

Do you know the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights (Art. 1)

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care (Art. 25).

I'm not american and I don't understand much of this bill, for what I understand this is a teeny (very very small) part of what the right to be cured is for me...but maybe is an headway, no?

For me the services provided by Health Systems must be free of charge for all (and is possible: you just need to use the money of your taxes in health care and not in war...it's easy!)

slightofjeff wrote:

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

So there ya go...

If my company decides to say "fuck it" and no longer offer health insurance, and pay the fines (which may be cheaper than them offering health insurance), I will be forced to get my own insurance. Right? Which could cost me and arm and a leg, right?

So for middle America, people who work for smaller businesses, who make $40-$50K a year, this may turn into nothing but a big fucking kick in the balls, right?

Depends. Are you a Native American? If so, you might be exempt. Your other option might be to join one of those crazy religions that doesn't believe in doctors. You might gain exemption that way, too.

In all seriousness, this is the one part of the bill I know I am against. Why on earth should it be mandatory to have health insurance? I think it should be a personal choice, with a caveat that, as with everything else on in this world, if you choose wrong it's your tough luck.

I don't believe in telling people how they have to spend their money.

I see your point. This part of the bill really bothers me also. And I would be willing to bet that the insurance industry played a large part in getting it in. I really don't understand why anyone should be fined for choosing not to purchase insurance. This is the one point the right hates in the bill and I agree with them.

But there are some wonderful points in the bill. Such as eliminating pre-existing conditions. That is huge for me. And also as Starfall pointed out earlier, Bernie Sanders provision amongst others.

I can't help but feel that if it wasn't for the policy of NO from the GOP that some real reform could have been passed early in this presidency. But because of those fear mongering on the right we are starting with a bill that is a long way from true reform.

I don't know how long it will take to get to single payer. Lets hope not another 50 years. But in my heart I believe true reform will not occur until the health industry becomes not for profit. And that feels light years away. The provision in the bill that states a fine for those choosing not to purchase insurance reeks of colusion with the health care industry.

All that said, I am pleased that something has been started. But I can't help but hope that is what it is...a start.

Had to edit: I typed Barry Sanders instead of Bernie......guess I had football on my mind

ambra333 wrote:

I want to say just one thing: the right to be cured is a basic and inalienable human right.

Do you know the Universal Declaration of Human Rights?

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights (Art. 1)

Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care (Art. 25).

I'm not american and I don't understand much of this bill, for what I understand this is a teeny (very very small) part of what the right to be cured is for me...but maybe is an headway, no?

For me the services provided by Health Systems must be free of charge for all (and is possible: you just need to use the money of your taxes in health care and not in war...it's easy!)

:thumbup: Though I've tried to bring that up before and was just told that we don't have to follow it. :roll:

:roll: I asked a legitimate question. It's a shame that your lack of understanding of and empathy for the lives of others keeps you from being able to contribute anything contrsuctive to the conversation. I guess some people's brains can only make sense of the world through stereotypes, like children do. (Though children still have more empathy.)[/quote]

i gave a legitimate answer. there is no lack of understanding and or lack of empathy for others, who make logical and common sense decisions. i believe an important aspect a human can have is to fall on their face and get back up....dignity.

to address your comment about "stereotypes"....i base my comments on the sample space to which i am exposed. the individuals i see and work with are a direct correlation of the problems with our health care.

as for "shame"...no need to feel shame for me... i am enjoying a fresh pack of cigarettes.

about time.

welcome to a civilized world where hopefully 700,000 people won't go bankrupt every year due to medical bills. welcome to a civilized world where we don't have to keep putting our trust in the insurance companies and the pharmaceutical companies who have been ripping off people for years.

the current system is deplorable. an absolute disgrace. i welcome the governments involvement in a system that has been such a failure for so many years it would be laughable if it wasn't so damn pathetic. no one has come up with any working alternatives so far. lets try this and see how it pans out. i've worked in a country that has universal health care and one that doesn't, and i know what i prefer. government run health care is not without some problems either, but I've worked in a country that has universal health care and im working in a country that doesn't. so i have experienced both.

the one thing i will say about the Country that did have it....people that require urgent life saving non elective surgery are treated as a priority. the same thing does not happen here.

i hope that one day people realize that while they have been so hell bent on shouting down the public option, all they have been doing is lobbying to keep pouring money into the pockets of insurance companies who have been the ones rationing healthcare today. the health insurance companies do not give a shit about you. if they did they would not focus so much of their time trying to get out of paying claims and compromising yours and your families health.

i never did get that. such anger and animosity at the thought of the government having some control over your health? it's not like what we have now is working or anything special. people really preferred it when your Insurance company could get away with doing anything to decline coverage and decline benefits???

what good is having the best doctors in the world, when the people that need them the most can't get treatment?

i've said it before and i'll say it again. if you don't trust the government to look after your health, i trust you won't be a hypocrite and call government paid/run emergency service personnel, and their equipment when you get in a bad situation. we'd hate you to not trust us with your health, so don't bother. you can't pick and choose just because it suits YOU. i am so tired of selfish people who only think about themselves.

and you are selfish. you don't give a rats ass about your 45 million uninsured fellow americans. all you care about is yourselves. this whole debate has caused such anger and animosity. it's really divided the country, funny how the thought of your countryman finally having access to a basic human right, being timely and affordable health care, can actually cause such anger.

and why don't you care about the billions of dollars of our money that we send over to Israel each year to help fund their illegal occupation. why aren't you more vocal about that? and why don't you care about all the billions and billions of dollars that's being poured into Iraq and Afghanistan to fund those wars? money we can never get back. its gone forever. spent, and it doesn't look like stopping anytime soon.

seems to me some are ok with the government wasting all that money, but when it comes to your fellow americans having access to affordable and timely healthcare, you really don't give a fuck.

i see plenty of benefits for this and i'm sure there's still work that needs to be done to get it all working properly and fairly. but it's a start.