CCTV footage of the hitsquad in Dubai

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  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    I just wish that instead of simply dismissing everything I've said as excuses without merit .

    You've had plenty of researched counter arguments to what you have been posting. If, because you are not happy with these and you consider them as rubbish, you decide people have been dismissing everything you said, that is your problem.
    How can one take 'you guys are totally off base' as a valid argument?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    i've read your views and i don't doubt it is complicated and nuanced but whether or not there is any legitimacy in your points - what is indisputable is that every day palestinians are subjugated to treatment at the hands of Israel that are crimes against humanity ... that has been going on for far too long and it's only getting worse ... so, while you may want to pick at issues - this daily oppression CAN NOT be tolerated by any means ... i challenge you to justify denying hungry children food and water ... sick people medicine ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    I don't justify it. I have never tried to. Many of you simply ignore this fact and assume that because I do not share all your views that I hold opinions that are in fact not mine. But the solutions offered by many on the Train to this situation, which I agree is intolerable, are in my opinion unrealistic and largely motivated by what I see as a fundamental misreading of the situation. I have simply tried to argue for a realistic approach to the discussion of this topic, which would involve mutual recognition of blame preceding a negotiated settlement of the conflict that would generally follow a return the the '67 lines, the option for refugees to return to the new Palestinian state with some sort of restitution payment from Israel, a serious and concerted effort by the Palestinians to police their own extremists, etc etc, basically what every sane person agrees should happen.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,

    Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...

    Like I said, I don't know these people personally, which is why I am unwilling to level a definitive accusation. You're right that I wouldn't be happy to be called a racist with the regard to the Palestinians, but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation, because I think there is enough blame to go around, and I recognize that the Palestinians have certainly been victimized. I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.


    but then you also say Israel reacts out of self defense, how is denying starving kids food and denying a populace water self defense? how is continuing to expand illegal settlements self defense? how was operation cast lead self defense?
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,074
    Pepe Silvia wrote:
    but then you also say Israel reacts out of self defense, how is denying starving kids food and denying a populace water self defense? how is continuing to expand illegal settlements self defense? how was operation cast lead self defense?

    it is as much self defese as the american wars in iraq and afghanistan are self defense. short answer, crimes against humanity and war crimes are not self defense...
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,074
    polaris_x wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.

    first of all - we've been discussing this topic for years and the very premise that this situation is equally to blame on both sides has long been dismissed here as purely lacking in foundation ... forgive us but we see israel as the primary bad guy here and nothing anyone has posted as shown otherwise ...

    people have a personal connection to humanity and whether it be gaza or myanmar - people who believe in human rights believe so around the world ... it just so happens the discussion is israel/palestine ... i'm pretty sure the same people would be against the junta in Burma or the anywhere else where basic human decency is being violated ...
    nice post, polaris. i agree completely, especially with the last paragraph.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    As far as I know Israel allows food and water into Gaza, and I don't know of any Palestinians who have starved to death because of Israel's actions. That said, I agree that Israel should lift embargoes on that do not relate specifically to security issues (e.g. food items beyond the basics they already let in). I think that settlement expansion should be stopped immediately. Cast Lead was self-defense because it was undertaken in response to unrelenting rocket attacks on civilian populations, that while not resulting in many deaths absolutely traumatized entire regions of the country to the point that life was simply unlivable there.

    And gimme, the situation is entirely different than Iraq, which never directly attacked the US. Israel was under attack from Gaza almost daily, and the government, which had held off from a full scale military response to the rocket attacks for as long as it could, having no desire to re-enter Gaza, was forced to do so by a populace demanding that their government do something to defend them.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Pepe Silvia
    Pepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    yosi wrote:
    As far as I know Israel allows food and water into Gaza, and I don't know of any Palestinians who have starved to death because of Israel's actions. That said, I agree that Israel should lift embargoes on that do not relate specifically to security issues (e.g. food items beyond the basics they already let in). I think that settlement expansion should be stopped immediately. Cast Lead was self-defense because it was undertaken in response to unrelenting rocket attacks on civilian populations, that while not resulting in many deaths absolutely traumatized entire regions of the country to the point that life was simply unlivable there.

    well groups like UNICEF and i think even the World Health Organization say the majority of Palestinian children suffer from acute malnutrition because of Israel's actions, like the absurd blockades. are you honestly telling me Israel won't allow crayons and asparagus into Gaza out of self defense!? that is so laughable. they haven't even allowed them to start rebuilding after operation cast lead decimated their city over a year ago.

    you say cast lead was self defense because of 'unrelenting rocket attacks'. so you are saying they reacted to rocket attacks, which are really more of a nuisance than deadly...but what if the rocket attacks are reactions to the theft of land, expansion of illegal settlements, abuse from settlers and IDF that goes unpunished (ie allowed to happen)

    also, groups like the World Health Organization say Israel only allows the Palestinians use of 20% of the water in the region while they keep the other 80% for themselves. is that out of self defense or greed?

    you say the illegal settlement expansion should be stopped, hey, we agree. however, the Israeli government disagrees
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    To start from the end...it isn't so simple as the Israeli government disagreeing. The settlers have become a powerful political block in Israel, and though they are not the majority they are much more extreme in their views, and certain sections of them are much more willing to actively and in some cases violently resist the state than the Israeli political mainstream is. It is very difficult for the government to deal with these people because without the prospect of an immanent peace accord they can't summon the political will necessary to actively police these people to the degree necessary, which would involve a lot of internal Israeli violence.

    As for building materials, the Israeli position is that Hamas will use these materials to rebuild and re-enforce military positions such as bunkers and arm depots, so while I find the embargo of these items problematic, there is a real security rational for it.

    As for water and food (and crayons) I think they should all be allowed in without restriction. And as for general water use, probably part of that has to do with Israel being an industrial society that simply has higher water requirements, and part of it probably is Israel trying to monopolize a precious resource, but frankly that is an issue that is an acknowledged element of peace negotiations, so if they ever do make peace I would assume that the issue of water will be resolved.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,074
    yosi wrote:
    And gimme, the situation is entirely different than Iraq, which never directly attacked the US. Israel was under attack from Gaza almost daily, and the government, which had held off from a full scale military response to the rocket attacks for as long as it could, having no desire to re-enter Gaza, was forced to do so by a populace demanding that their government do something to defend them.
    no, that "self defense" rationale is the same thing. respond with overwhelming force to protect their own interests. iraq never attacked us, nor did palestinian civillians attack isreal. it is the exact same thing. daily rocket attacks? how many people died then when they butchered over 1000 palestinians in 2008. starving children and denying water and medical treatment is not self defense. it is barbaric and is a crime against humanity and demonstrates incredible indecency on the part of isreal.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    You seem to have a problem with the brutality of war in general, but the fact is that Israel did not wake up one day and decide to kill a whole bunch of Palestinians. They had a legitimate reason for operation Cast Lead, despite the fact that you wish not to acknowledge it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • gimmesometruth27
    gimmesometruth27 St. Fuckin Louis Posts: 25,074
    yosi wrote:
    You seem to have a problem with the brutality of war in general, but the fact is that Israel did not wake up one day and decide to kill a whole bunch of Palestinians. They had a legitimate reason for operation Cast Lead, despite the fact that you wish not to acknowledge it.
    what is their legitimate reason for doing what they are doing now? answer me that.
    "You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry."  - Lincoln

    "Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    Could you be more specific? And please leave out hyperbole, just for the sake of a clear discussion.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I think what I would appreciate is someone explaining to me HOW a completely black-and-white perspective ("its 100% Israel's fault") will translate into peace, which I think is the fundamental issue we all care about. I have said on numerous occasions that Israel must cease settlement expansion and withdraw to pre-1967 borders as the crucial first step, and I think everyone in this thread can agree with that. Then, I go on to argue that a commitment on the part of the Palestinians to cease rocket and other attacks on Israel would be absolutely crucial if Israel is to stay at a pre-1967 size. And that's where people start arguing with me, for some reason. Tell you what ... If people can convince me that a lasting peace is possible EVEN IF Palestine does not commit to ending terrorism, I'll stop sparking that particular debate. Seriously ... If there is no responsibility or expectations for the Palestinian side, how is this thing going to truly change in a peaceful direction?
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    And I am talking about an active decision on the part of groups like Hamas to stop any and all attacks on Israel or Israelis. Why is this an unreasonable demand? Israel is going to respond to provocation, and I do not begrudge them that. My whole point is that an active commitment to leave Israel alone after a hypothetical withdrawal would be essential.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    I would only add that I don't think Israel will be willing to withdraw before they receive some sort of guarantee that violence directed against them will stop afterward, but otherwise this all seems pretty much on the mark.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    yosi wrote:
    I would only add that I don't think Israel will be willing to withdraw before they receive some sort of guarantee that violence directed against them will stop afterward, but otherwise this all seems pretty much on the mark.

    And actually that's fair, because I think there needs to be a compromise on some level before either side would really be willing to take peace seriously.
  • rebornFixer
    rebornFixer Posts: 4,901
    I don't know if asking it this way will even be all that helpful, but I am not sure how else to get the point across. There seems to be a perception that Israel making all the moves will make groups like Hamas disappear, and this is a highly debatable point. I do think that there is more to the ideology of Hamas than fighting against oppression, which is why active work against violence by the Palestinians themselves needs to be part of the solution.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    rebornFixer wrote:
    I don't know if asking it this way will even be all that helpful, but I am not sure how else to get the point across. There seems to be a perception that Israel making all the moves will make groups like Hamas disappear, and this is a highly debatable point. I do think that there is more to the ideology of Hamas than fighting against oppression, which is why active work against violence by the Palestinians themselves needs to be part of the solution.

    hamas doesn't exist without the crimes of israel ...

    like Yosi said - there are factions within Israel that DO NOT want peace, they do not want to give any concessions but rather they seek to take more and oppress more ... those people are dictating policy despite any cosmetics ...

    we need to take a step backward and look at what is happening at 30,000 feet ... as each day passes - it gets worse and worse for palestinians meanwhile what is israel truly suffering now? ... they live a posh existence while they subject palestinians to a brutal life ... that is why peace hasn't happened - there really is nothing to gain for israelis ... whereas palestinians would have the ability to self-determine their faith ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,211
    Please don't put words in my mouth. There are indeed factions in Israel that do not want peace, but I would not say they dictate policy. They certainly have to be taken into account when policy is made, but they are decidedly NOT the one's making Israel's policies.

    Hamas is not a reaction to Israeli oppression. Their charter explicitly commits the organization to the destruction of Israel...not the ending of the occupation, the destruction of Israel. That is why Hamas started its campaign of suicide bombings in the 1990's at the height of the Oslo process, which at the time seemed to have some momentum, and would have meant the end to the occupation if brought to fruition, because they are opposed to the peace process, which would entail a complete halt to hostilities. I am not going to say that organizations cannot change, but I have not seen anything yet that would make me believe that Hamas has done so.

    Israel has everything to gain from peace...an end to terrorism, normal relations with its neighbors, an end to Israeli sons being killed defending their country, and end to Israeli sons having to carry out missions for Israel's security that scar them emotionally, if not physically, because they are not inhuman, but really sympathize with the innocent Palestinians they encounter. Trust me when I say that Israelis desperately want peace.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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