CCTV footage of the hitsquad in Dubai

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  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    That's fine. I agree with that. Only there are people who actually do hate Jews, or perhaps hold prejudices that are somewhat more genteel, but are still prejudices, who express their prejudice through criticism of Israel. That is not to say that criticism of Israel is invalid, only that not everyone who is criticizing is doing it for noble reasons. Is this really that hard to understand? Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. They may not even be aware of how their views are shaped by prejudice. But to my ear the criticism of Israel by certain people on this thread sounds at times so shrill and hysterical that I can't help but wonder what is going on.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    That's fine. I agree with that. Only there are people who actually do hate Jews, or perhaps hold prejudices that are somewhat more genteel, but are still prejudices, who express their prejudice through criticism of Israel. That is not to say that criticism of Israel is invalid, only that not everyone who is criticizing is doing it for noble reasons. Is this really that hard to understand? Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. They may not even be aware of how their views are shaped by prejudice. But to my ear the criticism of Israel by certain people on this thread sounds at times so shrill and hysterical that I can't help but wonder what is going on.

    Actually, though, nobody cares how you choose to rationalize labeling people on this Message Board as racists. Nobody's buying it. So I suggest you try whistling another tune.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    Have I hit a nerve? Are you all-knowing? Do you now speak for everyone on this thread? Seriously dude, lose the arrogance.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi wrote:
    Have I hit a nerve? Are you all-knowing? Do you now speak for everyone on this thread? Seriously dude, lose the arrogance.

    Whoops, my apologies. I forgot to mention that Rebornfixer has your back.

    yosi wrote:
    Given that Israel is discussed here in absolutely unrealistic terms I have absolutely no problem treating this board as a joke with regard to this topic.

    Sure, I'm arrogant.

    Another example of your topsy-turvy world.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are. .

    This is a vile statement. But seeing that throughout the threads, your stance seems to be if one has counter arguments to yours, they are jew haters. Once we understand that, I guess this kind of statement, as disgusting that it may be, should not be taken personally. Talk about a twisted view of things.
  • puremagic
    puremagic Posts: 1,907
    rebornFixer wrote:
    puremagic wrote:
    Israel's conduct can, should and will come under the scrutiny of discussion and where sensitivity is justified it will be given, where it is not, it won't.

    And if that's what the anti-Israel crowd on here did, great. To put it bluntly, it ain't like that. You are describing a balanced approach that many on here do not take.

    Balance is a matter of ones interpretation of someone else's expressed opinion. Yosi's problem is that he seems outnumbered so here comes the invocation that because members post the negativity about Israel's activities they are somehow full of hate, anti-semitic and prejudice, part of some anti-Israel crowd on the MT.

    How many times have we discussed abortions and taxes issues and somehow the threads turned into welfare discussions, lazy people not wanting to work, people in ghettos living off of our taxes. I didn't see anyone say hey, you should be more sensitive. In fact the majority didn't care if their comments were insensitive, hateful or prejudice, they viewed their expressions as being tried of political correctness. No one claimed there was an anti-black crowd on MT.

    What a person takes from any discussion, again, is up to them, but to simply pull out the anti-semitic card because the discussions reflect negatively on Israel's activities is just bullshit.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    Why is it that virtually everyone here seems to ignore entirely everything I say unless it suits them. I AM NOT ACCUSING EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME OF ANTISEMITISM. No one has so far denied the general claim, which I think is accurate, that in the world there are Anti-Semites, and there are also critics of Israel, and while not all (or even most) critics of Israel are Anti-Semites, all Anti-Semites are going to be critics of Israel. THEREFORE, among those who are legitimate critics of Israel there will be those who are Anti-Semitic. You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned. Why? If we accept that there are those who criticize Israel not out of noble intentions, but out of prejudice towards Jews, and if we truly feel that Antisemitism is to be rejected, then shouldn't we be vigilant against the intrusion of Antisemitism into an otherwise legitimate discussion of Israel's faults? I am not trying to shut down debate. On the contrary, I would simply like the debate to be free of the sort of hateful speech that debases legitimate criticism's of Israel.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    Triumphant, I do not think you are an antisemite. Period. But I would not be surprised if some of the other people on this thread are.

    dude ... there are only so many people on this thread ... you're accusing some people on here of being anti-semite ... own up to it ...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    I don't think I haven't owned up to it. I have suspicions about the prejudices of certain people on this board. I don't know these people personally, so I am trying to be careful to state that these are only suspicions, and not outright accusations. And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    I don't think I haven't owned up to it. I have suspicions about the prejudices of certain people on this board. I don't know these people personally, so I am trying to be careful to state that these are only suspicions, and not outright accusations. And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone, as I have repeatedly tried to make clear.

    i don't know everyone personally either but i've seen posts from the regular posters on israel threads on a plethora of subjects and i would be surprised if someone here was an anti-semite (according to my definition which is someone who hates all jews) ... if you live in north america - it's pretty hard not to know a bunch of jews ..
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,

    Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    First off, Antisemitism doesn't have to mean a raging hatred of Jews. It can be a much more subtle prejudice, the same way that racism against blacks can manifest in subtle ways, even among people who know black people, are friends with black people, and don't think of themselves (and would be shocked to be thought of) as racists. Second, there are many people on these threads who are not from North America, where, I feel, Antisemitism is less generally tolerated. As far as I can tell there are many posters from Europe and a few from the Middle East, and I'm very sorry to say that Antisemitism seems to be on the rise in Europe, and is absolutely virulent in the Middle East, which is only to say that people from these places may be exposed to, and may have internalized prejudices without even being aware of it.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2010
    yosi wrote:
    You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.

    Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument. It's that victim mentality again. 'You're saying nasty things because you hate me (ie a jew)'
    Post edited by redrock on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    I And these suspicions are again only directed at a couple of people, not at everyone,

    Even if your accusations (oops.. sorry... 'suspicions'!) are directed at a couple of people, these are totally out of order and disgraceful. Anybody on this thread has a very good idea of who you are pinpointing. As you said, you know nothing of them. I personally know one of the guys you are targeting and he is NOT anti-semitic. If you can't deal with the majority's view on Israel, so be it, but don't start with the race/anti-semitic card again. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if someone turned around and said you were a racist with total disregard for Palestinians...

    Like I said, I don't know these people personally, which is why I am unwilling to level a definitive accusation. You're right that I wouldn't be happy to be called a racist with the regard to the Palestinians, but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation, because I think there is enough blame to go around, and I recognize that the Palestinians have certainly been victimized. I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.

    Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument.

    I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored, and I have been called, essentially, a heartless monster making excuses for Nazi war criminals for posting my opinions. Again, I do not make these "accusations" lightly, or because I lack serious arguments. I truly feel that there is an undercurrent of prejudice that runs through some of the posts on these threads that I find disturbing.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    ...but I have always in my defense of Israel tried to be empathetic to the Palestinians situation..

    :roll: you have not shown any empathy towards the palestinian people, continually defending Israel's actions against these people.
    yosi wrote:
    I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.
    'As far as you can tell'.. exactly. You are making assumptions and unfounded accusations. Does one need a tie to the middle east to feel passionately about the situation? No. Whatever situation - not limited to Israel. I feel passionately about what is happening in the middle east. Do I have ties there? Maybe, maybe not. I feel passionately about what is happening in Burma. Again... do I have ties there? Rubbish reasoning covering your shortfalls.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    yosi wrote:
    I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored,.

    Your arguments are blinkered and excuses for Israels actions. And you haven't been ignored, just had 'counter-arguments' that you did not like or had no response to (apart from going around in circles) and therefore decided to play the race card.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    yosi wrote:
    I fail to see the same empathy for what Israelis have been through by most of the posters on these threads, and from a certain few posters I have discerned a positive and personal hatred for the state of Israel, which seems strange to me given that the people who seem to feel this way have no personal connection (as far as I can tell) to the Middle East at all. To me that seems sketchy.

    first of all - we've been discussing this topic for years and the very premise that this situation is equally to blame on both sides has long been dismissed here as purely lacking in foundation ... forgive us but we see israel as the primary bad guy here and nothing anyone has posted as shown otherwise ...

    people have a personal connection to humanity and whether it be gaza or myanmar - people who believe in human rights believe so around the world ... it just so happens the discussion is israel/palestine ... i'm pretty sure the same people would be against the junta in Burma or the anywhere else where basic human decency is being violated ...
  • puremagic
    puremagic Posts: 1,907
    yosi wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    yosi wrote:
    You all act offended that Antisemitism would even be mentioned.

    Everyone recognises there are bigots everywhere. I am not offended that anti-semitism is mentioned, I am offended that you are pointing the finger at some people on this thread because, it would seem, you have no other argument.

    I have provided serious arguments at length in previous posts. They have mostly been ignored, and I have been called, essentially, a heartless monster making excuses for Nazi war criminals for posting my opinions. Again, I do not make these "accusations" lightly, or because I lack serious arguments. I truly feel that there is an undercurrent of prejudice that runs through some of the posts on these threads that I find disturbing.

    You have just gone from trying to have your points understood and rationally discussed - to drama queen. Yosi you have a "NEED" to believe people here on the MT hate jews and hate Israel as a whole.
    SIN EATERS--We take the moral excrement we find in this equation and we bury it down deep inside of us so that the rest of our case can stay pure. That is the job. We are morally indefensible and absolutely necessary.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,212
    Ok, but I think, from what I have seen with my own two eyes, that you guys are entirely off base, and beyond that, you are unwilling to really look at the situation without bias. I know you disagree, and that's fine. I really don't have a problem with people disagreeing with me. I just wish that instead of simply dismissing everything I've said as excuses without merit that some of you would pause long enough to examine the situation with a fewer preconceived assumptions, because I truly believe that the situation is much more complicated and nuanced than you give it credit for.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

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