Smokers Stink (AET) thread made me think

I just stated, I can feel empathy for the family member or friend of such a person, but do not feel any such thing for the actual person who puts themselves in such a situation or predicament.

Also, I rather find it funny you're throwing such terms in my direction but completely disregard the lack of empathy, responsibility or accountability of the person ACTUALLY putting their family member or friend through such things as a result of their own decisions and actions.

JD Sal wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

I do have empathy for the family member of such a scenario because in the end of the day, people are responsible for their own actions... ie this motorcyclist is responsible for not wearing a helmet and even if his family urged him to wear one, you can't force people to do things they do not want too. But even with all this stated, can we both agree that the motorcyclist's decision to not wear a helmet resulted in this result - so why should we feel bad or something over that fact? Perhaps you focus on the reaction towards the family, but isn't this merely displacement of emotion and responsibility on the fact of the matter? The motorcyclist caused these problems, suffered as a result and then his family will suffer as a result of their not having him in their life. It all still goes back to that persons' decision and ramifications of it.

Empathy is that unique human ability to imagine oneself in another’s position, to understand how others think and feel, to emotionally enter another person’s world, and to respond with compassion. This is essential to healthy relationships, social unity and personal growth.

In order to feel love, a person must be able to feel empathy. Narcissists and psychopaths lack empathy. The same applies to people with other personality disorders.

Q. How important is empathy to proper psychological functioning?

A. Empathy is more important socially than it is psychologically. The absence of empathy - for instance in the Narcissistic and Antisocial personality disorders - predisposes people to exploit and abuse others. Empathy is the bedrock of our sense of morality. Arguably, aggressive behavior is as inhibited by empathy at least as much as it is by anticipated punishment.

But the existence of empathy in a person is also a sign of self-awareness, a healthy identity, a well-regulated sense of self-worth, and self-love (in the positive sense). Its absence denotes emotional and cognitive immaturity, an inability to love, to truly relate to others, to respect their boundaries and accept their needs, feelings, hopes, fears, choices, and preferences as autonomous entities.

Read more at Suite101: Empathy: Empathy and Personality Disorders http://personalitydisorders.suite101.co ... z0fzoLclrG

Many of you attempt to throw this emotional psychology garbage in my direction and I find it rather funny. You sit here and defend people who forsake their families, health, welfare and similar to extreme levels and do nothing but make excuses for it, yet on the same hand, when I bring it up, throw stones in my direction?
People who have these kind of issues (addiction and similar) are the ones with psychological and emotional issues - not me. Get it and your logic straight and in order. I believe in justice, accountability and responsibility - none of which are emotionally depraved. You say things like "no regard for human life", yet look at the people you're defending - people with no regard for their own life, because they are throwing it away in a selfish and conscious decision making manner regardless of how it effects others (family, friends, etc).. yet you sit here and call me names for acknowledging these facts. It's pretty nonsensical and hypocritical to say the least.

JD Sal wrote:

I've stated several times in this thread that I do understand personal accountability and responsibility, but it doesn't mean that I lack any feeling of compassion or basic human emotion simply because a person's death may have been the result of a poor decision or lifestyle choice. Sorry, but I am not an emotionally shallow person with little to no regard for human life.

Do you not feel empathy for casualties of war? According to your logic, the soldiers knew the assumed risk when they signed up for the military, so why feel any emotion for them when they die? I've presented scenarios and you continually suggest the person got what they deserved based on the situation they put themselves in.

Firstly - completely wrong on your psychological analysis of me.

Secondly - please use all this psychological analysis and point it at the people making these decisions firstly...when you do that - I'll be more than happy to discuss my reasons I have my views.

JD Sal wrote:

It's not garbage, nonsensical, or hypocritical - it's psychology 101. My wife is a psychologist and I know a thing or two about this. Trust me, it is unnatural to possess your viewpoint toward human life absent unresolved pyschological trauma. Most likely, someone very close to you passed away due to a poor decision they made (smoking, reckless driving, etc) and you have never properly dealt with your feelings and emotions. I'm not calling you names or being unreasonable here, I just know what I'm talking about. Maybe you don't want to disclose the personal event that led to you becoming this way, but you started all of this by saying you wished all smokers would get cancer and die, and good riddance. And then you confirmed that some of your family members and friends smoke. And you think I have a twisted sense of reality?

Once again and this appears to be turning into ping-pong... you pass off the reasons and psychological/ emotional issues of the group in question that carry out these long term, harmful habits, yet pass your judgment on me. You claim you can't even begin to understand my rational - how bout you turn that upon the people making conscious, adult decisions which cause harm to themselves, their families and friends? Seems like you're displacing that key area upon me when in fact, it should be on them.

JD Sal wrote:

Social conditioning? I'm opened to reasoned debate here, but I can't even begin to understand your perspective unless you discuss the reasons why you have those views.

With certain things in life, like your health, yes I do feel this way. There are certain things we control and certain things we do not. You don't agree with me, and I don't discount your right to have sympathy or empathy in that scenario, but do not tell me I have to agree or view it in the same manner or there is something wrong with me. That is a load of crap and nothing more. Also, you can keep all of you psychological analysis to yourself as none of it pointed at me is close to correct.

JD Sal wrote:

Look, basic pyshological facts back up my argument that YOU are suppressing feelings of some kind, not me. It is not normal to feel so apathetic and disdainful toward human beings simply because they made decisions you don't agree with or think they should have avoided. You can apply your distorted logic to any single tragic event and blame the death on the individual, without any regard to the outcome. John drove home from work and got hit by a mack truck. Well, he knew the assumed risk of driving a car, so he's at fault and we shouldn't shed a tear. The luge accident. Again, guy knew it was dangerous, so why should I care he's dead. Sally's heart disease must have been from eating all those cheeseburgers. Fuck her. Police offer killed in the line of duty. Again, he knew the risks, so why should I care if he's 6 feet under. Firefighters... fuck em all, right?

And you honestly, deep in your being, think I'm delusional for feeling sympathy for any of these individuals. I've agreed with you several times that people need to be more personally accountable for their actions, but I don't just slap the "they deserved it" tag and move on when someone dies. The sooner that people like you begin to deal with unpleasant emotions and stop displacing blame and hurt onto others for their shortcomings, the better off we'll all be as a society. Some situations in life are avoidable, some are not. Regardless, I still care deeply about a lot of people and I would NEVER wish anyone dead just because they have a vice. Good luck in life my friend.

FiveB247x:
If you consider psychology junk science, and follow with an admission of zero empathy for addicts, you’ve pre-dismissed any legit counterpoint that could be made. I feel empathy for both the smoker AND their families. You ask why we apply our judgment to you, and not smokers? Simple. Smokers aren’t wishing death on you. If they were, I’d be judging them, not you. They don’t wish harm to their loved ones either (unlike you), regardless of how heartless you think they are for continuing maladaptive practices.

A smoker getting cancer is not justice, and a cancer diagnosis does not make one accountable for their actions. Cancer is not a certainty… Is it just for someone who started smoking at 11 to get cancer at 20, while others smoke into their 90’s? Oh, right…for you, justice would mean they both get it, and good riddance.

As for accountability…by your logic, nicotine addicts should HOPE for cancer if they think accountability is a moral responsibility. getting cancer is just the right thing for them to do, right? Brilliant. Accountability in this sense is a total misnomer.

Your crack and heroin examples: what about people who abuse MORE acceptable things like caffeine, high-fat food, painkillers, anti-depressants, sex, internet, diet supplements, exercise etc. These addictions all have well documented heath risks, or negative effects on your social well-being. Do all of those people DESERVE to die, and good riddance? Does a depressed person DESERVE to die because, like a smoker who doesn’t acknowledge the impacts of their actions on those around them, their world view is skewed? Or do you want to make some more exemptions to your original statement?

From my POV, the irony here is that you seem to be trying to champion ‘those left behind’…yet when I imagine you having the stones to make your first statement to the face of anyone I know who’s lost a smoking loved one to cancer (which I doubt you would)…I can’t help but think that they’d be the ones most likely to break your nose for disrespecting both the dead, and their feelings. Even IF your heart is in the right place (which you’ve convinced me it’s not), your approach is flat-out WRONG.
Wishing death upon a large demographic cannot be spun to any reasonable, logical conclusion, no matter how hard you try.

You are knitting picking on side-note issues rather than acknowledging my main point - cause/effect, responsibility and accountability. You can whine all day about whether you think my logic is cruel, uncaring or similar, but you've yet to acknowledge the same analysis on the people making these decisions which causes their problems and problems for their loved ones.

Drowned Out wrote:

FiveB247x:
If you consider psychology junk science, and follow with an admission of zero empathy for addicts, you’ve pre-dismissed any legit counterpoint that could be made. I feel empathy for both the smoker AND their families. You ask why we apply our judgment to you, and not smokers? Simple. Smokers aren’t wishing death on you. If they were, I’d be judging them, not you. They don’t wish harm to their loved ones either (unlike you), regardless of how heartless you think they are for continuing maladaptive practices.

A smoker getting cancer is not justice, and a cancer diagnosis does not make one accountable for their actions. Cancer is not a certainty… Is it just for someone who started smoking at 11 to get cancer at 20, while others smoke into their 90’s? Oh, right…for you, justice would mean they both get it, and good riddance.

As for accountability…by your logic, nicotine addicts should HOPE for cancer if they think accountability is a moral responsibility. getting cancer is just the right thing for them to do, right? Brilliant. Accountability in this sense is a total misnomer.

Your crack and heroin examples: what about people who abuse MORE acceptable things like caffeine, high-fat food, painkillers, anti-depressants, sex, internet, diet supplements, exercise etc. These addictions all have well documented heath risks, or negative effects on your social well-being. Do all of those people DESERVE to die, and good riddance? Does a depressed person DESERVE to die because, like a smoker who doesn’t acknowledge the impacts of their actions on those around them, their world view is skewed? Or do you want to make some more exemptions to your original statement?

From my POV, the irony here is that you seem to be trying to champion ‘those left behind’…yet when I imagine you having the stones to make your first statement to the face of anyone I know who’s lost a smoking loved one to cancer (which I doubt you would)…I can’t help but think that they’d be the ones most likely to break your nose for disrespecting both the dead, and their feelings. Even IF your heart is in the right place (which you’ve convinced me it’s not), your approach is flat-out WRONG.
Wishing death upon a large demographic cannot be spun to any reasonable, logical conclusion, no matter how hard you try.

So to be clear and concise, you think it is ok to willingly and knowingly abuse your health for extreme vices when you know what the long term effects will be and this is not somehow insulting or some sort of scale to your own self-value, family or friends? Really? Seriously? This is ok or somehow acceptable behavior or mindset for people? Sounds like nothing but an excuse ridden answer for unacceptable behavior and a poor plausibility for people excusing their terrible, adult decisions. All this issue amounts too is cause and effect. If you do x, y will happen. You want to sit here and make excuses for people making these decisions and not acknowledge their decisions and repercussions of making them. I really don't care what you think of me or my opinions otherwise. I do not think I'm better than anyone or above anyone in any sense - I like anyone else am responsible for my decisions and live with the repercussions of them - but if I follow you're logic, I guess I really don't have too.. huh?

Also, you're very good at using all this rational about logic, decision making and similar. Please further discuss these topics in regards to the people doing these poor habits. The kind of people who do these bad habits, know the results, yet choose to ignore them, or do them besides the fact of having families, etc. What does this say about the rational of these people? Not very much huh?

Drowned Out wrote:

If I'm nit-picking, you're sidestepping. I'm breaking your logic down into more palatable bites....yet it still tastes like shit; you're avoiding any critical analysis of your stance.
I acknowledge your analysis, and say straight up in the first paragraph that I don't think it applies to smokers. If you need me to elaborate further: it's because their is no intent to harm their loved ones, and no sense of 'justice being served' when they do so. Ignorance or a sense of invulnerability impact the cause and effect side, sure. But their actions are not a result of not caring, or thinking anyone deserves harm. They do not sit there and think 'fuck my friends and family - they deserve to suffer if I die'....by rights, you wishing death and cancer on these people is also wishing harm on their friends and families, so despite your claims of empathy, you’re no better than the smokers – in fact; you’re worse because you are showing intent.