Unthought Known

245

Comments

  • theoceansmademe
    theoceansmademe Posts: 1,132
    decides2dream wrote:
    Ms. Haiku wrote:
    Just going by the lyrics here, it seems like a sad song.

    This is positive:

    Feel the air up above,... A pool of blue sky,...
    Fill the air up with love,... Black w/starlight,...

    Feel the sky blanket you,... w/gems & rhinestones,...
    See the path cut by the moon,... For you to walk on,...
    For you to walk on,...

    But the rest is more like what Jeff Ament, the loner on the inside, is always writing about.

    The use of the word rival is interesting. (Binarual again? Do I have the ghost of albums past correct?) Rival implies a challenge, and not necessarily positive. Would you say to someone you love you will be no ones rival or would you say to someone you don't want to see again, you will be no ones rival as in go away and live a life that doesn't affect anyone?


    as to the rival question...it could be positive, or negative....either.
    on the porch within another lyric discussion, two possibilities arose:

    dream the dream of other men, you'll be no one's rival


    meaning, dream the dream of others...understand them, sympathise/empathize....anf therefore you'll be no one's rival, no one's enemy.....sounds rather positive

    another thought....

    if you dream the same dream as other men, you are not distinguishing yourself, you are being just like everyone else...you will not be anyone's rival, b/c you'll be the same, not stand out, unworthy of challenge.....sounds negative, but also can be positive, to spur you on TO think your own thoughts, have your own dreams...


    for me, within the context of the positivity i feel within the rest of the lyrics, and delivery of the lyrics....i think it's all positive. that's what i *feel* from the words and music. but again, that's just me.

    gawd...i love this shit.
    thank you all for these awesome discussions...and thank you pearl jam, as ever. :)

    I am with you on the postive side of this thought. I say this because of the lyrics before dream anothers dream,

    See the path cut by the moon,... For you to walk on,...
    See the waves on distant shores,... Awaiting your arrival,...

    To me this means you need to look at other cultures and attempt to see things as they do. If we all can have the same dream, say of peace then this planent would be a much better place.

    But religion has gotten in the way, in my mind, and much of what EV has written.

    He ends this song by stating:A distant time,... A distant space,... That’s where we’re living —..
    A distant time,... A distant place,... So what you giving?,...
    What you giving?

    I see this as another planet with life on it or just referring to our time right now on this one as one of many places with life. Whether this is an after life or not is beyond my thinking.

    But clearly a positive ending in what are you giving. We need to give to get.

    Cool song.
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    theoceansmademe wrote:
    I am with you on the postive side of this thought. I say this because of the lyrics before dream anothers dream,

    See the path cut by the moon,... For you to walk on,...
    See the waves on distant shores,... Awaiting your arrival,...

    To me this means you need to look at other cultures and attempt to see things as they do. If we all can have the same dream, say of peace then this planent would be a much better place.

    But religion has gotten in the way, in my mind, and much of what EV has written.

    He ends this song by stating:A distant time,... A distant space,... That’s where we’re living —..
    A distant time,... A distant place,... So what you giving?,...
    What you giving?

    I see this as another planet with life on it or just referring to our time right now on this one as one of many places with life. Whether this is an after life or not is beyond my thinking.

    But clearly a positive ending in what are you giving. We need to give to get.

    Cool song.


    beautiful thoughts......


    and even amongst the idea of 'challenge' to dream differently from others, to think above, to be bold/different/set your own path.....the idea of distant shores awaiting you, the moon cutting a path for you......still all makes sense.

    two roads diverged by a yellow wood...
    i took the road less travelled and that has made all the difference



    so yea....be YOU, be genuine....be your amazing self....and hell yes...give BACK.



    oooo...and ya know what else? relating this all to the ideas of the 'unthought known' theories.....it all FITS too! the idea of the collective thought, then your own thoughts....that back and forth, hell yes.....both simultaneously. shit, i have not had even the tiniest bit of any controlled substances today, honest....i'm at my cube at work! hahahaha.


    you people ROCK.

    btw - can you imagine ed (sure, maybe chuckling at our attempts ;))...but just SEEING people so getting off on your words, dissecting, relating......man, what a great mind fuck. 8-):lol::mrgreen: and sure, he sees it, in motion, when he plays live...but i do think this place is another layer to it....
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    oooo...and ya know what else? relating this all to the ideas of the 'unthought known' theories.....it all FITS too! the idea of the collective thought, then your own thoughts....that back and forth, hell yes.....both simultaneously. shit, i have not had even the tiniest bit of any controlled substances today, honest....i'm at my cube at work! hahahaha.

    Whoa. That just clicked. "Dream the dreams of other men" = the unthought known; the collective unconscious. We all have the some of the same thoughts inside of us, ingrained in the DNA of all humans.

    Now if I could only reconcile the "no one's rival" thing. :D:D:D
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • oona left
    oona left Posts: 1,677
    slightofjeff wrote:
    oooo...and ya know what else? relating this all to the ideas of the 'unthought known' theories.....it all FITS too! the idea of the collective thought, then your own thoughts....that back and forth, hell yes.....both simultaneously. shit, i have not had even the tiniest bit of any controlled substances today, honest....i'm at my cube at work! hahahaha.

    Whoa. That just clicked. "Dream the dreams of other men" = the unthought known; the collective unconscious. We all have the some of the same thoughts inside of us, ingrained in the DNA of all humans.

    Now if I could only reconcile the "no one's rival" thing. :D:D:D

    I like where this is going.

    "You'll be no one's rival" could be (could be) encouragement to treat each other with respect, to shed our conditioned tendency to fight, to war, to oppress, et cetera.

    Maybe, at our core, before the constraints of our individual reality tunnels were put in place, we were capable of living without the need to have an enemy. We have the knowledge to live that way again, we just need to access it?
  • Backspacer 76
    Backspacer 76 Posts: 963
    Best song on Backspacer.
    Absolutely love it.
  • BhagavadGita
    BhagavadGita Posts: 1,748
    Unthought Known, that phrase, brings to my mind telepathy. Don't know why.

    The song feels like a conversation between a very sad person with a person who is trying to help show them the beauty in life and for some reason this person can't hear the message due to a sick negativity.

    He is trying to listen with his mind, but he is always thinking. Maybe it's about bi polar disorder. A friend worries about the mental health of a friend. A hopeless character says nothing left.

    Maybe there was a real dream he had over and over and now that dream has died.

    What is left is heaven. Another life on another deminsion.

    Reminds me a bit of Off He Goes, don't know why I said that. It also reminds me of Father and Son by Cat Stevens. But then again, I'm out of my mind in love with this song.
  • cookies
    cookies Posts: 113
    I like this tune it kind of goes with my avatar :)... I see a person looking at the crossraods and not to sure which one to take. And he saying take the one that will lead you to your dreams. The other paths you would be on one rival and there is nothing left to dream for....In other words go for your dreams.....
    Cookies
    ôjô
  • PeArLgOoNeR
    PeArLgOoNeR Posts: 1,250
    Brilliant thought on this song, people! I really had a hard time with the Dream the Dreams part before this.. Now it kinda makes sense :)

    Such a beautiful picture painted with words!

    Hamburg 2000, Berlin 2006, Copenhagen 2007, Berlin 2009, Berlin 2010, Berlin 1+2 2012, Copenhagen 2012, Amsterdam 1+2 2014, Vienna 2014, Berlin 2014, Prague 2018, Krakow 2018
  • Ms. Haiku
    Ms. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,374
    I just want to put it out there that with the incredibly uplifting music, it's hard to think of Rival as a negative. Maybe if we all recognize the same thing by looking at the same thing then we can't outdo each other.

    This will be an awesome running song.
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    oh..a thread for the best song of Backspacer,,cool :D
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    PeArLgOoNeR wrote:
    Such a beautiful picture painted with words!


    :mrgreen:
    *thumbs up*
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • Backspacer_Backer
    Backspacer_Backer Posts: 1,023
    http://www.michaelrobbinstherapy.com/ar ... ection.pdf

    most of us know that Ed is a huge participator/believer in Transcendental Meditation. This article ties Mindfulness meditation into the meaning of Unthought Known (these are the last 2 paragraphs of the link above):

    Another source of uncovering the unthought known is to explore the repetitive roles that we act out in
    our interpersonal relationships and the corresponding redundant roles that we induce in others. When we
    release the energy and information that is held in these roles, we travel a long way towards the goal of
    liberating ourselves from unconscious fixations and patterns. Once we have done this we are free to
    choose the roles that are adaptive for the situation that we are in at the moment and release the roles that
    are maladaptive.
    Perhaps the deepest level of the unthought known is the heart of the teachings of mindfulness
    meditation.     The heart of these teachings, which we know already but have forgotten, is that
    fundamentally we are awareness itself, already liberated from our fixations, fears and redundancies,
    without essential content, beyond subject and object, everything and nothing, and that whatever we are
    in life we also are not. This is the “non-dual” consciousness at the heart of so many mystical and
    meditative traditions (Wilber, 2003). In other words, the deepest level of the unthought known and the
    edge of the unknown, are the same thing.
  • slightofjeff
    slightofjeff Posts: 7,762
    Backspacer_Backer wrote:
    http://www.michaelrobbinstherapy.com/articles/EmbeddedReflection.pdf

    most of us know that Ed is a huge participator/believer in Transcendental Meditation. This article ties Mindfulness meditation into the meaning of Unthought Known (these are the last 2 paragraphs of the link above):

    Another source of uncovering the unthought known is to explore the repetitive roles that we act out in
    our interpersonal relationships and the corresponding redundant roles that we induce in others. When we
    release the energy and information that is held in these roles, we travel a long way towards the goal of
    liberating ourselves from unconscious fixations and patterns. Once we have done this we are free to
    choose the roles that are adaptive for the situation that we are in at the moment and release the roles that
    are maladaptive.
    Perhaps the deepest level of the unthought known is the heart of the teachings of mindfulness
    meditation.     The heart of these teachings, which we know already but have forgotten, is that
    fundamentally we are awareness itself, already liberated from our fixations, fears and redundancies,
    without essential content, beyond subject and object, everything and nothing, and that whatever we are
    in life we also are not. This is the “non-dual” consciousness at the heart of so many mystical and
    meditative traditions (Wilber, 2003). In other words, the deepest level of the unthought known and the
    edge of the unknown, are the same thing.

    Translation: Ed does way too many drugs.
    everybody wants the most they can possibly get
    for the least they could possibly do
  • Backspacer_Backer
    Backspacer_Backer Posts: 1,023
    slightofjeff wrote:
    Backspacer_Backer wrote:
    http://www.michaelrobbinstherapy.com/articles/EmbeddedReflection.pdf

    most of us know that Ed is a huge participator/believer in Transcendental Meditation. This article ties Mindfulness meditation into the meaning of Unthought Known (these are the last 2 paragraphs of the link above):

    Another source of uncovering the unthought known is to explore the repetitive roles that we act out in
    our interpersonal relationships and the corresponding redundant roles that we induce in others. When we
    release the energy and information that is held in these roles, we travel a long way towards the goal of
    liberating ourselves from unconscious fixations and patterns. Once we have done this we are free to
    choose the roles that are adaptive for the situation that we are in at the moment and release the roles that
    are maladaptive.
    Perhaps the deepest level of the unthought known is the heart of the teachings of mindfulness
    meditation.     The heart of these teachings, which we know already but have forgotten, is that
    fundamentally we are awareness itself, already liberated from our fixations, fears and redundancies,
    without essential content, beyond subject and object, everything and nothing, and that whatever we are
    in life we also are not. This is the “non-dual” consciousness at the heart of so many mystical and
    meditative traditions (Wilber, 2003). In other words, the deepest level of the unthought known and the
    edge of the unknown, are the same thing.

    Translation: Ed does way too many drugs.

    is that what it is? here i was about to take up transcendental meditation, but i think upping my drug consumption would be less of a hassle.
  • mutobart
    mutobart Posts: 32
    people, it is absolutely briliant that such thread does exist. I mean it. till now, kill me, I read the Porch section only. just discovered this section about the lyrics. being "no native" in english I have quite a big troubles to understand some of the songs` meanings.

    unthought known is my favourite on BS. and I would really love to understand the meaning once in my life :D

    "Dream of dreams of other men..." is exactly the part I am struggling with. I see you discussed that already. I am hardly accepting the fact that Eddie is trying to "promote" the people should think all the same to avoid conflicts. I think people should go their own way in their lives. maybe I am missing something. I need to dig in to the psycho thing outlined above, which I haven`t got time yet to study
    2006 Prague 2012 Prague 2014 Vienna
  • shinmasaliu
    shinmasaliu Posts: 36
    I don't know why, but the first couple of times I heard the song I thought it was about us, in the present time, being responsible for paving the path for future generations to walk on.

    To the future generations, we're the past.
    "A distant time, a distance space, that's where we're living...
    A distant time, a different place, so what you giving?"

    What are we giving to the world to shape the future, to help generations to come?

    And the whole Unthought Known thing .. someone mentioned collective sentience etc. Perhaps it's like how we're all related in some way or another, because we all share our existence on the timeline of Life in general. We're all in this together, and even our subconscious actions/thoughts will change the future without us even knowing it. I don't know, it's hard to explain heh.

    That's what I took from the song anyway.

    Btw hi, sup, this is my first post. Great to be one of you :D
    This is, this is ... my ... last exit.
  • RiseAbove_10
    RiseAbove_10 Posts: 20
    I think the message is this: the human mind is powerful, in our simplest form, we are all LOVE, before circumstance and environment give us scars, we're LOVE. Evolution. Where we humans are now..slaving for dollars, distracted by so many things that shouldn't matter at all, losing contact...is far from where humans used to be...only using the sun's energy, really watching and studying the sky, interacting with each other. There's little left for us in this world we've destroyed. We are far from where we should be. Reevaluate life. Bring it back to the pure form. We all have the power to make it better.
    "Dream the dreams of other men, you will be no one's rival." BE LOVE. BE PEACEFUL.
  • BhagavadGita
    BhagavadGita Posts: 1,748
    "Dream the dreams of other men, you'll be no one's rival.."

    How interesting that so many people are interested in this lyric.

    Maybe it simply means have the hope and aspirations of other people and you will become their equal, you will have no enemy..

    Sounds like a good trait to have if happen to be president.
  • embrace
    embrace Posts: 849
    "Dream the dreams of other men and you will be no one's rival"

    here's my latest personal interpretation/application of it...

    A lot in this world (and negativity contained therein) seems to grow out of self righteousness, trying to one up/out do someone/something (corporation, country) and doesn't really seemed rooted in that which is "good" or beneficial for us/the earth/the world community....When someone/something/anyone/anything steps out of their confines/tendency to "one up" or "out do" and rather "embrace" (ehhem) the unknown/their fears/the visions/"the dreams" of others, we are able to see from that new point of view.

    Even if we dispute the theory or are opposed by value to the core, we have taken the time to respect where this thought/this thing is coming from. It's completely unselfish and giving- you have given your time to understand this dream of another man (and ones dreams are truly intimate to the soul/their being)...

    With this approach- you could naturally not have a rival as you would see eye to eye and understand at the true core. Now to think if world leaders incorporated this...


    diggin on this thread...
    got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
    I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
    I want to go but I want to go with you.

    Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT

    I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
  • Ms. Haiku
    Ms. Haiku Washington DC Posts: 7,374
    Ok, here's an example of unthought known in my mind

    I was hanging outside in the night with my siblings sitting around a fire pit

    That was unthought known

    I think what is inherent in this unthought known is the lack of energy involved in it, the ability to just zone because in this case there was trust. It is when you feel like you are *home*
    There is no such thing as leftover pizza. There is now pizza and later pizza. - anonymous
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math - The Mincing Mockingbird

Categories