Final UN Gaza Report

135

Comments

  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    It doesn't change my opinion that Hamas DOES use human shields and hides with civilians. Someone posted that there was no evidence of this...I think that it's pretty easy to see.

    So despite there being no evidence of Palestinians using human shields - no evidence whatsoever - after numerous intensive investigations from many different human rights organizations and the U.N, it doesn't change YOUR OPINION that Hamas DOES use human shields?

    So tell me, what is this opinion of yours based on?


    I base my opinion on seeing "death in gaza" showing kids making bombs. And also based on common sense.

    But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.

    And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.

    It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Ummm...no it wasn't. But I'm glad that you think you putting words in my mouth is "being honest".

    Great, so then why did you ask the question?


    Ummm...go read.

    You said Israel provided no evidence that it was happening. So I addressed it by asking you if you really thought it wasn't happening.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    You said Israel provided no evidence that it was happening.

    No I didn't. I said that none of the human rights organizations or the U.N has ever found any evidence of Hamas using human shields. Israel, on the other hand, has been found to have used Palestinian civilians as human shields on numerous occasions.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    The thing is, the Israeli's have provided no evidence that Hamas used civilians as human shields. No evidence whatsoever. Israel, on the other had, blatantly used Palestinian civilians as human shields. And If I'm wrong about this then anybody can feel free to correct me.

    Israel also accused Hezbollah of using human shields during it's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006, but investigators found zero evidence of this.


    Sure seems like you did. ;)

    Anyhow, this is why these threads are so f'n frustrating, it was a simple question...now you are saying you never said something when it's right there on the screen.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I base my opinion on seeing "death in gaza" showing kids making bombs. And also based on common sense.

    I don't see any common sense in ignoring the findings of every Human Rights Organization.


    cincybearcat wrote:
    But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.

    That's very magnanimous of you. How about simply putting aside your own opinions, which are based on nothing but your own ideas and prejudices - for good or ill - and stick to the facts instead?

    cincybearcat wrote:
    It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.


    I think the U.N reports findings are pretty unambiguous.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    The thing is, the Israeli's have provided no evidence that Hamas used civilians as human shields. No evidence whatsoever. Israel, on the other had, blatantly used Palestinian civilians as human shields. And If I'm wrong about this then anybody can feel free to correct me.

    Israel also accused Hezbollah of using human shields during it's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006, but investigators found zero evidence of this.


    Sure seems like you did. ;)

    Anyhow, this is why these threads are so f'n frustrating, it was a simple question...now you are saying you never said something when it's right there on the screen.

    O.k, my mistake. I posted that yesterday. I thought we were referring to the present discussion.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    I base my opinion on seeing "death in gaza" showing kids making bombs. And also based on common sense.

    I don't see any common sense in ignoring the findings of every Human Rights Organization.


    cincybearcat wrote:
    But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.

    That's very magnanimous of you. How about simply putting aside your own opinions, which are based on nothing but your own ideas and prejudices - for good or ill - and stick to the facts instead?

    cincybearcat wrote:
    It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.


    I think the U.N reports findings are pretty unambiguous.


    Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.

    "That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.

    "That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?

    Why pretend to be offended? We're discussing the massacre of 1600 people here. I've presented you with facts. You've attempted to apportion equal blame to both sides based on nothing but your own opinions.

    And I answered your question a few posts back. But that wasn't good enough for you.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
    and you base this on common sense and nothing else? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? You can argue that Hamas is not the best representation the Palestinian people could ask for, and I agree. I don't completely agree with Hamas. However, to make such a wild, disgusting accusation like that not only has no basis whatsoever but is just insane. You would not pass with this argument in any logical part of the world because "common sense" means nothing. What you are showing is not common sense but a leap of faith taken for who knows what reason, but I'm sure the propaganda you've been exposed to has not helped.

    Let me tell you why I can logically put all the blame on Israel: Hamas and the entire world has called for a two-state solution on the 1967 borders which will cease all violence. Israel has refused. How can anyone argue against this? How can you sit here and talk about Hamas, an organization barely 20 years old, compared to Israel which has been terrorizing the Palestinians for decades upon decades? Maybe you can help address these points since jlew refuses to.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.

    "That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?

    Why pretend to be offended? We're discussing the massacre of 1600 people here. I've presented you with facts. You've attempted to apportion equal blame to both sides based on nothing but your own opinions.

    And I answered your question a few posts back. But that wasn't good enough for you.


    Where did I say anything about equal blame?

    You really have to stop doing that...or I'll have to ask another simple question.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Where did I say anything about equal blame?
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.

    And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Where did I say anything about equal blame?
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.

    And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
    You should have left out everything he's said so far because it's all been irrelevant. Asking a question like "Has Hamas ever used human shields?" has nothing to do with this conflict.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    _outlaw wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
    and you base this on common sense and nothing else? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? You can argue that Hamas is not the best representation the Palestinian people could ask for, and I agree. I don't completely agree with Hamas. However, to make such a wild, disgusting accusation like that not only has no basis whatsoever but is just insane. You would not pass with this argument in any logical part of the world because "common sense" means nothing. What you are showing is not common sense but a leap of faith taken for who knows what reason, but I'm sure the propaganda you've been exposed to has not helped.

    Let me tell you why I can logically put all the blame on Israel: Hamas and the entire world has called for a two-state solution on the 1967 borders which will cease all violence. Israel has refused. How can anyone argue against this? How can you sit here and talk about Hamas, an organization barely 20 years old, compared to Israel which has been terrorizing the Palestinians for decades upon decades? Maybe you can help address these points since jlew refuses to.

    I know all yoru reasons. I've even appreciated much of what you shared. Where I break down when talking with you is the fact that you think Hamas need to nothing different...only Israel needs to change. And while I've already agreed with you that israel needs to start and make the big leap, I'm think it's only realistic to think that unless Hamas is also seen by israel as giving something up, peace will never be found.

    I cannot defend israel...the only thing to say is that the hatred on both sides is so great that nothing will be done without both appearing to be giving something up for peace.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Where did I say anything about equal blame?
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.

    And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.


    So % wasn't relavant but equal (which means 50% by the way) is? Hmmm...not sure I get this.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited September 2009
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Where did I say anything about equal blame?

    You really have to stop doing that...or I'll have to ask another simple question.

    Seriously though, we're now running around in circles. You asked a question. I distrusted your motives and it got my tail up. You didn't give me a sound reason for asking it. I then answered your question. You then spoke about your own opinions and common sense. Now we're both going around in circles.

    Fact is, your question has been answered. There is zero evidence that Hamas has ever used civilians as human shields.

    You can read the latest U.N report for further clarification if you want to:

    http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... Report.pdf
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    _outlaw wrote:
    and you base this on common sense

    So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
    hippiemom = goodness
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    _outlaw wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    Where did I say anything about equal blame?
    cincybearcat wrote:
    And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.

    And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
    You should have left out everything he's said so far because it's all been irrelevant. Asking a question like "Has Hamas ever used human shields?" has nothing to do with this conflict.


    I responded to his post about it with the question...I didn't bring it up.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    cincybearcat wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    and you base this on common sense

    So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
    When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty. Common sense is not enough to make someone guilty of a crime, especially one so grave like what you are accusing them of. So, because all these reports that Byrnzie has showed you have proved that there is reasonable doubt, I think you can have nothing more than a "suspicion" that they use human shields.

    Israel, on the other hand, has been proven to use human shields.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    cincybearcat wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    and you base this on common sense

    So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?

    You see, you talk about the M.T being frustrating and about me being a jerk e.t.c, but then you come out with this?

    Let's just say, if you really think there's an answer to this question, and if you think that it'll shed some light on the occupation and all of the crimes that go with it, including the criminal blockade of Gaza, and the recent massacre of a defenseless civilian population, then go ahead and find the answer. You can use Google. Knock yourself out.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,880
    _outlaw wrote:
    cincybearcat wrote:
    _outlaw wrote:
    and you base this on common sense

    So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
    When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty. Common sense is not enough to make someone guilty of a crime, especially one so grave like what you are accusing them of. So, because all these reports that Byrnzie has showed you have proved that there is reasonable doubt, I think you can have nothing more than a "suspicion" that they use human shields.

    Israel, on the other hand, has been proven to use human shields.


    Ok, I'll use this line for all the consiracy threads about 9/11 etc. Thanks.

    "When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty."

    And here I thought it was a messageboard to talk about our thoughts. Sorry I shared mine.

    "Suspicion"...sure, I can go with that. More like a "sneaking suspicion". ;)
    hippiemom = goodness

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