what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Do you really think that civilians are not being used by Hamas?
Honest question. For me the answer is an easy one. It's just 1 part of a much larger messed up story though.
Firstly, it depends on what you mean by 'used'. Used in what way?
Secondly, this issue comes down to a burden of responsibility. Perhaps it's passed you by that 1.5 million people have been imprisoned and collectively punished for voting for the wrong party. Perhaps it passed you by that the Israeli army broke the ceasefire on November 4th 2008 and then in January of this year carried out a massacre of a defenseless civilian population.
You see, the blockade of Gaza is illegal under international law. So is the 40 year occupation.
So I'm not sure I quite understand the motives behind your question. Maybe you can elaborate for me?
"Perhaps it passed by you..." you are more of a condescending jerk then the people you call out in posts. Just because you don't use four letter words (oh wait...you do) doesn't mean that you aren't just like the crap you pretend to be outraged by.
Anyhow, no motives. I just asked a simple question. I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't think that Hamas hides amongst the civilians because a) it either protects them from attacks or b) it gets great press if civilians are killed by Israel. Kinda naive to hink otherwise.
Hell, they use kids to make bombs too. I'm nt trying to go into the entire conflict. I'm speakig abot the 1 topic I mentioned. Not sure why you couldn't address it without trying to bring 40 years in...it was a simple question.
"Perhaps it passed by you..." you are more of a condescending jerk then the people you call out in posts. Just because you don't use four letter words (oh wait...you do) doesn't mean that you aren't just like the crap you pretend to be outraged by.
Anyhow, no motives. I just asked a simple question. I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't think that Hamas hides amongst the civilians because a) it either protects them from attacks or b) it gets great press if civilians are killed by Israel. Kinda naive to hink otherwise.
You pretend that your question was innocent. You were implying that Hamas used human shields, hid behind civilians. Why would you ask that question? 1600 Palestinians were killed, 900 of them civilians, compared with 13 Israeli's. You then point the finger at Hamas and ask whether they use civilians. And then when I paint the bigger for you, which you are already aware of, you cry wolf.
'NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the report is the last in a large number of reports that have been issued on the Gaza massacre. There were two significant reports issued by Amnesty International, five reports issued by Human Rights Watch, and a whole slew of Israeli-based human rights organizations have issued reports. But this was the most awaited report of all of them. It was commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council. And Richard Goldstone, as you mentioned in your own introductory remarks, is a significant international figure, legal figure.
So the report basically is consistent with the findings of the other human rights organizations, that Israel targeted civilians, Israel targeted civilians who were carrying white flags, Israel systematically targeted the Palestinian infrastructure. The findings were consistent with those of the other human rights organizations: Israel is guilty of a very significant number of war crimes. And also, the findings which were—other reports, the same conclusions, that the Palestinians were not using hospitals to hide Hamas officials. There’s no evidence that the ambulances Israel targeted were carrying Hamas militants or ammunition. And most significantly, in terms of the coverage during the Gaza massacre, the report found, as did Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, there’s no evidence whatsoever—and I would want to underline that—there’s no evidence whatsoever that Hamas was guilty of human shielding. But on the other hand, there is significant evidence, actually copious evidence, that Israel was guilty of human shielding.'
0
g under p
Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
Do you really think that civilians are not being used by Hamas?
Honest question. For me the answer is an easy one. It's just 1 part of a much larger messed up story though.
Firstly, it depends on what you mean by 'used'. Used in what way?
Secondly, this issue comes down to a burden of responsibility. Perhaps it's passed you by that 1.5 million people have been imprisoned and collectively punished for voting for the wrong party. Perhaps it passed you by that the Israeli army broke the ceasefire on November 4th 2008 and then in January of this year carried out a massacre of a defenseless civilian population.
You see, the blockade of Gaza is illegal under international law. So is the 40 year occupation.
So I'm not sure I quite understand the motives behind your question. Maybe you can elaborate for me?
"Perhaps it passed by you..." you are more of a condescending jerk then the people you call out in posts. Just because you don't use four letter words (oh wait...you do) doesn't mean that you aren't just like the crap you pretend to be outraged by.
Anyhow, no motives. I just asked a simple question. I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't think that Hamas hides amongst the civilians because a) it either protects them from attacks or b) it gets great press if civilians are killed by Israel. Kinda naive to hink otherwise.
Hell, they use kids to make bombs too. I'm nt trying to go into the entire conflict. I'm speakig abot the 1 topic I mentioned. Not sure why you couldn't address it without trying to bring 40 years in...it was a simple question.
None of this makes it right BUT Israel commits far worse crimes under the disguise of war. Yes it does get great when Israel kills civillians cause they kill many many more innocent people on purpose.
peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
None of this makes it right BUT Israel commits far worse crimes under the disguise of war. Yes it does get great when Israel kills civillians cause they kill many many more innocent people on purpose.
peace
For the love of Allah, I was asking 1 question about 1 specific topic. I'm well aware of what people have posted the previous 5 billion times about how fucking evil Israel is.
It doesn't change my opinion that Hamas DOES use human shields and hides with civilians. Someone posted that there was no evidence of this...I think that it's pretty easy to see.
Yes it was a simple question. But take it and run with it anyway you like. You're ASSuming.
It's about being honest. It was an attempt to blame the high number of civilian casualties on Hamas. Just as during and after Israel's attack on Lebanon in 2006 the same unfounded accusations were made against Hezbollah. It's a way of deflecting responsibility.
It doesn't change my opinion that Hamas DOES use human shields and hides with civilians. Someone posted that there was no evidence of this...I think that it's pretty easy to see.
So despite there being no evidence of Palestinians using human shields - no evidence whatsoever - after numerous intensive investigations from many different human rights organizations and the U.N, it doesn't change YOUR OPINION that Hamas DOES use human shields?
So tell me, what is this opinion of yours based on?
Yes it was a simple question. But take it and run with it anyway you like. You're ASSuming.
It's about being honest. It was an attempt to blame the high number of civilian casualties on Hamas. Just as during and after Israel's attack on Lebanon in 2006 the same unfounded accusations were made against Hezbollah. It's a way of deflecting responsibility.
Ummm...no it wasn't. But I'm glad that you think you putting words in my mouth is "being honest".
But it a part of the issue. I should have known better than to get into this thread. You can't discuss this on AMT without people going off their rocker.
It doesn't change my opinion that Hamas DOES use human shields and hides with civilians. Someone posted that there was no evidence of this...I think that it's pretty easy to see.
So despite there being no evidence of Palestinians using human shields - no evidence whatsoever - after numerous intensive investigations from many different human rights organizations and the U.N, it doesn't change YOUR OPINION that Hamas DOES use human shields?
So tell me, what is this opinion of yours based on?
I base my opinion on seeing "death in gaza" showing kids making bombs. And also based on common sense.
But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.
And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.
You said Israel provided no evidence that it was happening.
No I didn't. I said that none of the human rights organizations or the U.N has ever found any evidence of Hamas using human shields. Israel, on the other hand, has been found to have used Palestinian civilians as human shields on numerous occasions.
The thing is, the Israeli's have provided no evidence that Hamas used civilians as human shields. No evidence whatsoever. Israel, on the other had, blatantly used Palestinian civilians as human shields. And If I'm wrong about this then anybody can feel free to correct me.
Israel also accused Hezbollah of using human shields during it's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006, but investigators found zero evidence of this.
Sure seems like you did.
Anyhow, this is why these threads are so f'n frustrating, it was a simple question...now you are saying you never said something when it's right there on the screen.
But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.
That's very magnanimous of you. How about simply putting aside your own opinions, which are based on nothing but your own ideas and prejudices - for good or ill - and stick to the facts instead?
It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.
I think the U.N reports findings are pretty unambiguous.
The thing is, the Israeli's have provided no evidence that Hamas used civilians as human shields. No evidence whatsoever. Israel, on the other had, blatantly used Palestinian civilians as human shields. And If I'm wrong about this then anybody can feel free to correct me.
Israel also accused Hezbollah of using human shields during it's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006, but investigators found zero evidence of this.
Sure seems like you did.
Anyhow, this is why these threads are so f'n frustrating, it was a simple question...now you are saying you never said something when it's right there on the screen.
O.k, my mistake. I posted that yesterday. I thought we were referring to the present discussion.
But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.
That's very magnanimous of you. How about simply putting aside your own opinions, which are based on nothing but your own ideas and prejudices - for good or ill - and stick to the facts instead?
It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.
I think the U.N reports findings are pretty unambiguous.
Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.
"That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?
Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.
"That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?
Why pretend to be offended? We're discussing the massacre of 1600 people here. I've presented you with facts. You've attempted to apportion equal blame to both sides based on nothing but your own opinions.
And I answered your question a few posts back. But that wasn't good enough for you.
And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
and you base this on common sense and nothing else? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? You can argue that Hamas is not the best representation the Palestinian people could ask for, and I agree. I don't completely agree with Hamas. However, to make such a wild, disgusting accusation like that not only has no basis whatsoever but is just insane. You would not pass with this argument in any logical part of the world because "common sense" means nothing. What you are showing is not common sense but a leap of faith taken for who knows what reason, but I'm sure the propaganda you've been exposed to has not helped.
Let me tell you why I can logically put all the blame on Israel: Hamas and the entire world has called for a two-state solution on the 1967 borders which will cease all violence. Israel has refused. How can anyone argue against this? How can you sit here and talk about Hamas, an organization barely 20 years old, compared to Israel which has been terrorizing the Palestinians for decades upon decades? Maybe you can help address these points since jlew refuses to.
Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.
"That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?
Why pretend to be offended? We're discussing the massacre of 1600 people here. I've presented you with facts. You've attempted to apportion equal blame to both sides based on nothing but your own opinions.
And I answered your question a few posts back. But that wasn't good enough for you.
Where did I say anything about equal blame?
You really have to stop doing that...or I'll have to ask another simple question.
And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.
And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
You should have left out everything he's said so far because it's all been irrelevant. Asking a question like "Has Hamas ever used human shields?" has nothing to do with this conflict.
And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
and you base this on common sense and nothing else? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? You can argue that Hamas is not the best representation the Palestinian people could ask for, and I agree. I don't completely agree with Hamas. However, to make such a wild, disgusting accusation like that not only has no basis whatsoever but is just insane. You would not pass with this argument in any logical part of the world because "common sense" means nothing. What you are showing is not common sense but a leap of faith taken for who knows what reason, but I'm sure the propaganda you've been exposed to has not helped.
Let me tell you why I can logically put all the blame on Israel: Hamas and the entire world has called for a two-state solution on the 1967 borders which will cease all violence. Israel has refused. How can anyone argue against this? How can you sit here and talk about Hamas, an organization barely 20 years old, compared to Israel which has been terrorizing the Palestinians for decades upon decades? Maybe you can help address these points since jlew refuses to.
I know all yoru reasons. I've even appreciated much of what you shared. Where I break down when talking with you is the fact that you think Hamas need to nothing different...only Israel needs to change. And while I've already agreed with you that israel needs to start and make the big leap, I'm think it's only realistic to think that unless Hamas is also seen by israel as giving something up, peace will never be found.
I cannot defend israel...the only thing to say is that the hatred on both sides is so great that nothing will be done without both appearing to be giving something up for peace.
You really have to stop doing that...or I'll have to ask another simple question.
Seriously though, we're now running around in circles. You asked a question. I distrusted your motives and it got my tail up. You didn't give me a sound reason for asking it. I then answered your question. You then spoke about your own opinions and common sense. Now we're both going around in circles.
Fact is, your question has been answered. There is zero evidence that Hamas has ever used civilians as human shields.
You can read the latest U.N report for further clarification if you want to:
And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame.
And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
You should have left out everything he's said so far because it's all been irrelevant. Asking a question like "Has Hamas ever used human shields?" has nothing to do with this conflict.
I responded to his post about it with the question...I didn't bring it up.
So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty. Common sense is not enough to make someone guilty of a crime, especially one so grave like what you are accusing them of. So, because all these reports that Byrnzie has showed you have proved that there is reasonable doubt, I think you can have nothing more than a "suspicion" that they use human shields.
Israel, on the other hand, has been proven to use human shields.
So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
You see, you talk about the M.T being frustrating and about me being a jerk e.t.c, but then you come out with this?
Let's just say, if you really think there's an answer to this question, and if you think that it'll shed some light on the occupation and all of the crimes that go with it, including the criminal blockade of Gaza, and the recent massacre of a defenseless civilian population, then go ahead and find the answer. You can use Google. Knock yourself out.
So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty. Common sense is not enough to make someone guilty of a crime, especially one so grave like what you are accusing them of. So, because all these reports that Byrnzie has showed you have proved that there is reasonable doubt, I think you can have nothing more than a "suspicion" that they use human shields.
Israel, on the other hand, has been proven to use human shields.
Ok, I'll use this line for all the consiracy threads about 9/11 etc. Thanks.
"When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty."
And here I thought it was a messageboard to talk about our thoughts. Sorry I shared mine.
"Suspicion"...sure, I can go with that. More like a "sneaking suspicion".
Comments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AD4V89VjCs
8:31
pt.2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1xn5vc4Wmw
6:26
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
"Perhaps it passed by you..." you are more of a condescending jerk then the people you call out in posts. Just because you don't use four letter words (oh wait...you do) doesn't mean that you aren't just like the crap you pretend to be outraged by.
Anyhow, no motives. I just asked a simple question. I find it hard to believe that anyone doesn't think that Hamas hides amongst the civilians because a) it either protects them from attacks or b) it gets great press if civilians are killed by Israel. Kinda naive to hink otherwise.
Hell, they use kids to make bombs too. I'm nt trying to go into the entire conflict. I'm speakig abot the 1 topic I mentioned. Not sure why you couldn't address it without trying to bring 40 years in...it was a simple question.
You pretend that your question was innocent. You were implying that Hamas used human shields, hid behind civilians. Why would you ask that question? 1600 Palestinians were killed, 900 of them civilians, compared with 13 Israeli's. You then point the finger at Hamas and ask whether they use civilians. And then when I paint the bigger for you, which you are already aware of, you cry wolf.
No it wasn't. It was a loaded question.
And in answer to your question:
'NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the report is the last in a large number of reports that have been issued on the Gaza massacre. There were two significant reports issued by Amnesty International, five reports issued by Human Rights Watch, and a whole slew of Israeli-based human rights organizations have issued reports. But this was the most awaited report of all of them. It was commissioned by the UN Human Rights Council. And Richard Goldstone, as you mentioned in your own introductory remarks, is a significant international figure, legal figure.
So the report basically is consistent with the findings of the other human rights organizations, that Israel targeted civilians, Israel targeted civilians who were carrying white flags, Israel systematically targeted the Palestinian infrastructure. The findings were consistent with those of the other human rights organizations: Israel is guilty of a very significant number of war crimes. And also, the findings which were—other reports, the same conclusions, that the Palestinians were not using hospitals to hide Hamas officials. There’s no evidence that the ambulances Israel targeted were carrying Hamas militants or ammunition. And most significantly, in terms of the coverage during the Gaza massacre, the report found, as did Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, there’s no evidence whatsoever—and I would want to underline that—there’s no evidence whatsoever that Hamas was guilty of human shielding. But on the other hand, there is significant evidence, actually copious evidence, that Israel was guilty of human shielding.'
Give this a watch:
UN Inquiry Finds Israel “Punished and Terrorized” Palestinian Civilians, Committed War Crimes During Gaza Assault
None of this makes it right BUT Israel commits far worse crimes under the disguise of war. Yes it does get great when Israel kills civillians cause they kill many many more innocent people on purpose.
peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
For the love of Allah, I was asking 1 question about 1 specific topic. I'm well aware of what people have posted the previous 5 billion times about how fucking evil Israel is.
It doesn't change my opinion that Hamas DOES use human shields and hides with civilians. Someone posted that there was no evidence of this...I think that it's pretty easy to see.
It's about being honest. It was an attempt to blame the high number of civilian casualties on Hamas. Just as during and after Israel's attack on Lebanon in 2006 the same unfounded accusations were made against Hezbollah. It's a way of deflecting responsibility.
So despite there being no evidence of Palestinians using human shields - no evidence whatsoever - after numerous intensive investigations from many different human rights organizations and the U.N, it doesn't change YOUR OPINION that Hamas DOES use human shields?
So tell me, what is this opinion of yours based on?
Ummm...no it wasn't. But I'm glad that you think you putting words in my mouth is "being honest".
But it a part of the issue. I should have known better than to get into this thread. You can't discuss this on AMT without people going off their rocker.
Great, so then why did you ask the question?
I base my opinion on seeing "death in gaza" showing kids making bombs. And also based on common sense.
But let me be clear, I've not said it's the only reason wy Israel has killed civilians.
And 1 opinion I have no evidence of what so ever but I still believe, I believe the leaders of Hamas don't care about civilian casualties...I think they like them because as I said it drives people to their side.
It's a fucked up situation. And yes, I do believe that both sides share blame. What % is debatable for me. but I'm not all or none like outlaw or you are.
Ummm...go read.
You said Israel provided no evidence that it was happening. So I addressed it by asking you if you really thought it wasn't happening.
No I didn't. I said that none of the human rights organizations or the U.N has ever found any evidence of Hamas using human shields. Israel, on the other hand, has been found to have used Palestinian civilians as human shields on numerous occasions.
Sure seems like you did.
Anyhow, this is why these threads are so f'n frustrating, it was a simple question...now you are saying you never said something when it's right there on the screen.
I don't see any common sense in ignoring the findings of every Human Rights Organization.
That's very magnanimous of you. How about simply putting aside your own opinions, which are based on nothing but your own ideas and prejudices - for good or ill - and stick to the facts instead?
I think the U.N reports findings are pretty unambiguous.
O.k, my mistake. I posted that yesterday. I thought we were referring to the present discussion.
Man you a fucking piece of work. It's useless even trying to ask you 1 simple question. And then it's useless trying to simplify it for you in a few sentences. I'd rather not post a 40 page post.
"That's very magnanimous of you"...what is wrong with you?
Why pretend to be offended? We're discussing the massacre of 1600 people here. I've presented you with facts. You've attempted to apportion equal blame to both sides based on nothing but your own opinions.
And I answered your question a few posts back. But that wasn't good enough for you.
Let me tell you why I can logically put all the blame on Israel: Hamas and the entire world has called for a two-state solution on the 1967 borders which will cease all violence. Israel has refused. How can anyone argue against this? How can you sit here and talk about Hamas, an organization barely 20 years old, compared to Israel which has been terrorizing the Palestinians for decades upon decades? Maybe you can help address these points since jlew refuses to.
Where did I say anything about equal blame?
You really have to stop doing that...or I'll have to ask another simple question.
And yes, I left out the % part. It didn't seem relevant.
I know all yoru reasons. I've even appreciated much of what you shared. Where I break down when talking with you is the fact that you think Hamas need to nothing different...only Israel needs to change. And while I've already agreed with you that israel needs to start and make the big leap, I'm think it's only realistic to think that unless Hamas is also seen by israel as giving something up, peace will never be found.
I cannot defend israel...the only thing to say is that the hatred on both sides is so great that nothing will be done without both appearing to be giving something up for peace.
So % wasn't relavant but equal (which means 50% by the way) is? Hmmm...not sure I get this.
Seriously though, we're now running around in circles. You asked a question. I distrusted your motives and it got my tail up. You didn't give me a sound reason for asking it. I then answered your question. You then spoke about your own opinions and common sense. Now we're both going around in circles.
Fact is, your question has been answered. There is zero evidence that Hamas has ever used civilians as human shields.
You can read the latest U.N report for further clarification if you want to:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/G ... Report.pdf
So you don;t believe that Hamas uses the civilian population to hide militant operations?
I responded to his post about it with the question...I didn't bring it up.
Israel, on the other hand, has been proven to use human shields.
You see, you talk about the M.T being frustrating and about me being a jerk e.t.c, but then you come out with this?
Let's just say, if you really think there's an answer to this question, and if you think that it'll shed some light on the occupation and all of the crimes that go with it, including the criminal blockade of Gaza, and the recent massacre of a defenseless civilian population, then go ahead and find the answer. You can use Google. Knock yourself out.
Ok, I'll use this line for all the consiracy threads about 9/11 etc. Thanks.
"When you're making an accusation, if there is any reasonable doubt then the accused is assumed to be not guilty."
And here I thought it was a messageboard to talk about our thoughts. Sorry I shared mine.
"Suspicion"...sure, I can go with that. More like a "sneaking suspicion".