Final UN Gaza Report

Byrnzie

I wonder if we'll get to see the Israeli leadership sent to the International War Crimes Tribunal at the Hague?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... rael-hamas

UN Gaza report accuses Israel and Hamas of war crimes
15 September 2009

Inquiry into Gaza conflict singles out Israeli policy towards Palestinians for most serious condemnation

Israel's offensive against Gaza last January was "a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population", for which some Israelis should face "individual criminal responsibility", a UN investigation has found.

The inquiry, led by the former South African judge Richard Goldstone, concluded that both the Israeli military and Hamas committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity during the three-week conflict, but singled out Israel and its policy towards the Palestinians of Gaza for the most serious condemnation. The inquiry rejected Israel's argument that the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and therefore an act of self-defence.

In a 575-page report (pdf), released tonight, the inquiry said Israel should be required to investigate the allegations raised and if it fails to do so the case should be passed to the prosecutor of the international criminal court. It accused Israel of "grave breaches" of the fourth Geneva convention and of a war crime for using Palestinians as human shields during the fighting.

Israel refused to co-operate with the inquiry, arguing that the UN human rights council, which commissioned the study, is biased against Israel. "Both the mandate of the mission and the resolution establishing it prejudged the outcome of any investigation, gave legitimacy to the Hamas terrorist organisation and disregarded the deliberate Hamas strategy of using Palestinian civilians as cover for launching terrorist attacks," the Israeli foreign ministry said.

But Goldstone, who is Jewish and has strong links with Israel, defended the work of the four-person team. "There should be no impunity for international crimes that are committed," he said. "It's very important that justice should be done."

He rejected any suggestion of bias: "To accuse me of being anti-Israel is ridiculous." He said it was in the interests of both Israel and the Palestinians for the truth to be established.

Goldstone's team looked in detail at 36 incidents during the war. It studied the deaths of 22 members of the Samouni family who, following instructions from Israeli soldiers, were sheltering in a house in Zeitoun, east of Gaza City. The house was then hit by Israeli fire. The killings were a grave breach of the fourth Geneva convention, the inquiry said.

It found seven incidents in which civilians were shot while leaving their homes, waving white flags and sometimes following instructions from Israeli soldiers.

A "direct and intentional attack" on the al-Quds hospital, in the south of Gaza City, which left the building seriously damaged and forced the evacuation of patients, may amount to a war crime.

The report was critical of Palestinian armed groups, saying their rocket fire did not distinguish between civilian and military targets in Israel, caused terror among civilians and amounted to war crimes and possible crimes against humanity.

It said Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier captured near Gaza more than three years ago, should be released.'

NoK

What is sad is that every time they mention israeli war crimes they always have tag it to Hamas war crimes as a way of avoiding being called anti-Semitic.. I don't understand how killing 1300+ Palestinians is comparable to 13 israelis (some of which were friendly fire).. its always the case in any report from mainstream media.. either its Palestinians committing crimes or both sides committing crimes.. you rarely if ever here sole criticism of the israeli side.. and when you do the whole world erupts about those remarks..

and for anyone who is going to argue that number of deaths isn't the issue.. well bullshit.. 13 Palestinians die each couple of days

Byrnzie

NoK wrote:

What is sad is that every time they mention israeli war crimes they always have tag it to Hamas war crimes as a way of avoiding being called anti-Semitic.. I don't understand how killing 1300+ Palestinians is comparable to 13 israelis (some of which were friendly fire).. its always the case in any report from mainstream media.. either its Palestinians committing crimes or both sides committing crimes.. you rarely if ever here sole criticism of the israeli side.. and when you do the whole world erupts about those remarks..

and for anyone who is going to argue that number of deaths isn't the issue.. well bullshit.. 13 Palestinians die each couple of days

And just 3 Israeli civilians died. Ten were IDF soldiers, four of whom were killed by friendly fire. 3 Israeli civilians were killed compared with approx 950 Palestinian civilians, 400 of whom were children. But we're expected to view the situation as being a struggle between equals on a level playing field, not as one modern army committing a massacre against a defenseless civilian population.

And you're right about the media being afraid to criticize Israel. Every time the BBC mentions the settlements being illegal under international law they always feel the need to add 'but Israel disputes this'. As if Israel disputing international law is relevant?

Drowned Out

Byrnzie wrote:

NoK wrote:

What is sad is that every time they mention israeli war crimes they always have tag it to Hamas war crimes as a way of avoiding being called anti-Semitic.. I don't understand how killing 1300+ Palestinians is comparable to 13 israelis (some of which were friendly fire).. its always the case in any report from mainstream media.. either its Palestinians committing crimes or both sides committing crimes.. you rarely if ever here sole criticism of the israeli side.. and when you do the whole world erupts about those remarks..

and for anyone who is going to argue that number of deaths isn't the issue.. well bullshit.. 13 Palestinians die each couple of days

And just 3 Israeli civilians died. Ten were IDF soldiers, four of whom were killed by friendly fire. 3 Israeli civilians were killed compared with approx 950 Palestinian civilians, 400 of whom were children. But we're expected to view the situation as being a struggle between equals on a level playing field, not as one modern army committing a massacre against a defenseless civilian population.

And you're right about the media being afraid to criticize Israel. Every time the BBC mentions the settlements being illegal under international law they always feel the need to add 'but Israel disputes this'. As if Israel disputing international law is relevant?

How does that happen without intent?


I love this:

Israeli foreign ministry wrote:

"Both the mandate of the mission and the resolution establishing it prejudged the outcome of any investigation, gave legitimacy to the Hamas terrorist organisation and disregarded the deliberate Hamas strategy of using Palestinian civilians as cover for launching terrorist attacks," the Israeli foreign ministry said.

Everyone is biased against Israel.. It's their response to every criticism. ironic that the Hamas use of civilians as human shields is used as an excuse to bomb and shoot unarmed civilians in their homes, no?

Byrnzie

Drowned Out wrote:

Everyone is biased against Israel.. It's their response to every criticism. ironic that the Hamas use of civilians as human shields is used as an excuse to bomb and shoot unarmed civilians in their homes, no?

The thing is, the Israeli's have provided no evidence that Hamas used civilians as human shields. No evidence whatsoever. Israel, on the other had, blatantly used Palestinian civilians as human shields. And If I'm wrong about this then anybody can feel free to correct me.

Israel also accused Hezbollah of using human shields during it's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006, but investigators found zero evidence of this.

cincybearcat

Do you really think that civilians are not being used by Hamas?

Honest question. For me the answer is an easy one. It's just 1 part of a much larger messed up story though.

Byrnzie

cincybearcat wrote:

Do you really think that civilians are not being used by Hamas?

Honest question. For me the answer is an easy one. It's just 1 part of a much larger messed up story though.

Firstly, it depends on what you mean by 'used'. Used in what way?

Secondly, this issue comes down to a burden of responsibility. Perhaps it's passed you by that 1.5 million people have been imprisoned and collectively punished for voting for the wrong party. Perhaps it passed you by that the Israeli army broke the ceasefire on November 4th 2008 and then in January of this year carried out a massacre of a defenseless civilian population.

You see, the blockade of Gaza is illegal under international law. So is the 40 year occupation.

So I'm not sure I quite understand the motives behind your question. Maybe you can elaborate for me?

jlew24asu

Hamas broke the cease fire in 08. and its nice to see you justifying the use of civilians as human shields. you call them martyrs right?

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

Hamas broke the cease fire in 08.

No they didn't.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/former ... nkelstein/
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website...that Hamas had adhered to the ceasefire from June 17th until November 4th. On November 4th...The record is clear: Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants. At that point—and now I’m quoting the official Israeli website—Hamas retaliated or, in retaliation for the Israeli attack, then launched the missiles.

Now, as to the reason why, the record is fairly clear as well. According to Ha’aretz, Defense Minister Barak began plans for this invasion before the ceasefire even began. In fact, according to yesterday’s Ha’aretz, the plans for the invasion began in March. And the main reasons for the invasion, I think, are twofold. Number one, as Mr. Indyk I think correctly points out, to enhance what Israel calls its deterrence capacity, which in layman’s language basically means Israel’s capacity to terrorize the region into submission. After their defeat in July 2006 in Lebanon, they felt it important to transmit the message that Israel is still a fighting force, still capable of terrorizing those who dare defy its word.

And the second main reason for the attack is because Hamas was signaling that it wanted a diplomatic settlement of the conflict along the June 1967 border. That is to say, Hamas was signaling they had joined the international consensus, they had joined most of the international community, overwhelmingly the international community, in seeking a diplomatic settlement. And at that point, Israel was faced with what Israelis call a Palestinian peace offensive. And in order to defeat the peace offensive, they sought to dismantle Hamas.

jlew24asu wrote:

and its nice to see you justifying the use of civilians as human shields.

What civilians? When?

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

No they didn't.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/former ... nkelstein/
NORMAN FINKELSTEIN: Well, the record is fairly clear. You can find it on the Israeli website, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs website...that Hamas had adhered to the ceasefire from June 17th until November 4th. On November 4th...The record is clear: Israel broke the ceasefire by going into the Gaza and killing six or seven Palestinian militants.

why did Israel go into Gaza and kill six or seven militants?

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

why did Israel go into Gaza and kill six or seven militants?

You go ahead and tell me. Provide some evidence. And when you've done that, kindly address the fact that the invasion of Gaza had already been planned in March of 2008.

Edit: Here, I'll help you out:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/no ... lestinians
'A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said...'


The Israeli military said that Hamas was 'planning' to use a tunnel and capture some soldiers.

So, where's the evidence? There isn't any. And none has ever been produced. Israel broke the ceasefire. Period.
Shit, even the Israeli's themselves admit that they broke the ceasefire, but once again Jlew knows better.

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

why did Israel go into Gaza and kill six or seven militants?

You go ahead and tell me. Provide some evidence. And when you've done that, kindly address the fact that the invasion of Gaza had already been planned in March of 2008.

Edit: Here, I'll help you out:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/no ... lestinians
'A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said...'


The Israeli military said that Hamas was 'planning' to use a tunnel and capture some soldiers.

So, where's the evidence? There isn't any. And none has ever been produced. Israel broke the ceasefire. Period.
Shit, even the Israeli's themselves admit that they broke the ceasefire, but once again Jlew knows better.

the evidence is the tunnel. have I seen it with my own eyes? no I haven't. so I guess it must be made up. :roll: is anyone surprised that Israel took action to stop an illegal tunnel from being dug?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t-lead.htm

On 04 November 2008 Israel raided the Gaza Strip in order to thwart the threat of a tunnel being dug by the Gaza border, killing at least 6 Palestinians. This incident is apparently the "incursion" that HAMAS took as the reason for ending the truce. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire. On 12 November 2008, IDF Paratroopers Brigade forces identified a number of armed gunmen attempting to plant an explosive device next to the security fence in the central Gaza Strip. The gunmen exchanged fire with the IDF forces that arrived at the scene. The IDF had recently identified a significant rise in attempts to place explosive devices on the security fence of the Gaza Strip in an attempt to target forces in the area.

From 04 November through 18 December 2008, Hamas and affiliated Palestinian terrorist groups fired 213 rockets and 126 mortar shells into Israel. More than 20 Kassam rockets were fired at southern Israel from Gaza on Wednesday 17 December 2008. In response to the continuous rocket fire from the Gaza Strip upon Israeli territory, IDF forces carried out four aerial strikes against terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday 17 December 2008.

polaris_x

i've come to the conclusion that the only people that can fix this are jewish people on the outside ... men like finkelstein ...

as shown on this board ... showing sympathy to the palestinian plight is akin to loving terrorists ... as like so many other things in this world - we've been brainwashed to believe that it's all the "terrorists" fault ...

this shit has been going on for decades ... well before the existence of hamas or the voting in of hamas ...

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

the evidence is the tunnel. have I seen it with my own eyes? no I haven't. so I guess it must be made up. :roll: is anyone surprised that Israel took action to stop an illegal tunnel from being dug?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... t-lead.htm

On 04 November 2008 Israel raided the Gaza Strip in order to thwart the threat of a tunnel being dug by the Gaza border, killing at least 6 Palestinians. This incident is apparently the "incursion" that HAMAS took as the reason for ending the truce. Hamas retaliated with rocket fire. On 12 November 2008, IDF Paratroopers Brigade forces identified a number of armed gunmen attempting to plant an explosive device next to the security fence in the central Gaza Strip. The gunmen exchanged fire with the IDF forces that arrived at the scene. The IDF had recently identified a significant rise in attempts to place explosive devices on the security fence of the Gaza Strip in an attempt to target forces in the area.

From 04 November through 18 December 2008, Hamas and affiliated Palestinian terrorist groups fired 213 rockets and 126 mortar shells into Israel. More than 20 Kassam rockets were fired at southern Israel from Gaza on Wednesday 17 December 2008. In response to the continuous rocket fire from the Gaza Strip upon Israeli territory, IDF forces carried out four aerial strikes against terrorist targets in the Gaza Strip on Wednesday 17 December 2008.

The fact that there was a tunnel under the Gaza strip was a good enough reason to break the ceasefire, in your opinion?

Do you know how many tunnels there are in and around the Gaza strip?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=97933336
'There are literally hundreds, perhaps a thousand tents strung out all along the border across several miles. Each tent represents a tunnel that all day, every day is hauling goods across from Egypt, everything from small refrigerators to cattle to cigarettes to gasoline. And the hum of the generators, the cacophonous hum, is incessant. As you walk here, it's just a tent city. An entire city has essentially sprouted up here along the Egypt-Gaza border, a city committed to smuggling.'

You see, you may not be aware of it, but there's been an illegal blockade of the Gaza strip by Israel since Hamas were voted into power in a free and democratic election in 2006. The blockade has been described as a crime against humanity by every human rights organization and the U.N. The tunnels are the only way for the 1.5 million residents to survive.

Oh, and did you actually read the article I posted at the top of this thread?
The U.N '...inquiry rejected Israel's argument that the war was a response to Palestinian rocket fire and therefore an act of self-defence.'

jlew24asu

polaris_x wrote:

i've come to the conclusion that the only people that can fix this are jewish people on the outside ... men like finkelstein ...

as shown on this board ... showing sympathy to the palestinian plight is akin to loving terrorists ... as like so many other things in this world - we've been brainwashed to believe that it's all the "terrorists" fault ...

this shit has been going on for decades ... well before the existence of hamas or the voting in of hamas ...

"as seen on this board" ? what the hell are you talking about?

the only way there will be peace is when Hamas is gone and Israel stops expanding settlements. neither of which seems to be anytime soon.

Byrnzie

Good article here on the effects of the criminal Israeli blockade:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n01/roy_01_.html

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

The fact that there was a tunnel under the Gaza strip was a good enough reason to break the ceasefire, in your opinion?

no I don't think its a good enough reason. but it sure was for Israel. maybe Hamas shouldn't have given them a reason to break the ceasefire.

Byrnzie wrote:

Do you know how many tunnels there are in and around the Gaza strip?

You see, you may not be aware of it, but there's been an illegal blockade of the Gaza strip by Israel since Hamas were voted into power in a free and democratic election in 2006. The blockade has been described as a crime against humanity by every human rights organization and the U.N. The tunnels are the only way for the 1.5 million residents to survive.

quite the conundrum isnt it? those same tunnels are used to smuggle weapons as well.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

the only way there will be peace is when Hamas is gone and Israel stops expanding settlements. neither of which seems to be anytime soon.

Hamas didn't exist in 1948. It didn't exist in 1967 either.

Byrnzie

jlew24asu wrote:

maybe Hamas shouldn't have given them a reason to break the ceasefire.

They didn't. There was no reason for Israel to break the ceasefire, other than that they'd been planning a full-scale invasion of Gaza over the previous six months.

polaris_x

jlew24asu wrote:

"as seen on this board" ? what the hell are you talking about?

the only way there will be peace is when Hamas is gone and Israel stops expanding settlements. neither of which seems to be anytime soon.

dude ... the evidence is OVERWHELMING ... anyone who honestly reads even the base literature on this conflict should understand by now that everything starts and ends with the israelis ... anyone who thinks that "both sides" are equally wrong either choose to ignore this information or don't value human life equally ...

this is the worst present day crime against humanity second only to the iraq war and darfur ...

jlew24asu

Byrnzie wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

the only way there will be peace is when Hamas is gone and Israel stops expanding settlements. neither of which seems to be anytime soon.

Hamas didn't exist in 1948. It didn't exist in 1967 either.

well they exist now don't they? and its my opinion that Israel will never have friendly relations with them, and visa versa