Any Lawyers Here?

2»

Comments

  • Posts: 13,202
    Commy wrote:
    the restaurant business is hit or miss.

    I'm talking about labor, not ideas. as employees we are notoriously strapped for cash. we spend what we make, and we enjoy our free time, more so than other industries, I'm sure. what could we have done? even if we pooled our money... if we decided, that for the sake of a business venture, we were going to take out a loan and start a restaurant...we wouldn't have had the advantages of the owners of the restaurant we were literally running. they were on elliot bay, in the same building as the marina. prime location. they were a step ahead before we began. they had the funds going in to set up an environment that very few people could compete with.

    the owners got by on the hard work of others, and that's the backbone of capitalism. they had the means to start that restaurant, through exploiting labor, and are probably going to continue that in the future. for us to compete with them we would need more than the 13-20 of us could come up with, its unrealistic.

    what I know is how to run a restaurant. and we ran that place, like no one since. not to be pissy or nostalgic, that restaurant has gone to shit since we left, the owners have been set back, and it came down to not respecting their employees-the people that literally ran the business. all i am saying is that we should have been given a cut of the profit, since we did all the work. and I think that's a realistic demand. I'm sure in hindsight the owners would agree. they've literally lost millions.

    You did all the work? Then why are you whining about not being able to get the funds to start up a restaurant? Surely, the owners did some work to get those funds? You whine about them having the best location. What kind of work do you think they had to to do to secure that location? They set up a great environment... that didn't take any work whatsoever for them to do?
  • Posts: 4,984
    soulsinging wrote:

    I feel like I've heard this story from him before and when somebody asked this question, he suddenly got very quiet.

    I'm not a big fan of wealth disparity (as you can see from my posts in the Obama-salary cal thread), but let's face it: workers are, in the large part, fungible. I was one of the better servers at my restaurant, but they didn't take any hits when I left. There were hundreds of people in that town that could do my job.

    If workers were so powerful, we wouldn't NEED minimum wage and hours laws. They would just make employers bend over without need of federal legislation. All unions did was build a PAC to get federal safeguards, now they're just a joke... they get locked in and blackmail employers... they're as bad as the banks.


    wrong. first of all servers carry food around. that's it. anyone can do that. few people go to a restaurant to see how well people can carry food around. they go to taste the food, and not everyone can cook.


    its because of labor that we have minimum wage and hour laws. without organized labor we would have neither.


    labor runs this country. remember that. there is no country to run, no freedoms, no labor laws, no public services, no fucking taxis or transit or mail, there is nothing without labor. how do you think the laws were passed in the first place? power influences policy. without general strikes -that's when people in many industries literally stop working- without general strikes and popular protests nothing would have changed. we'd still be treating minorities like second class citizens and women wouldn't be allowed to vote. there'd be no minimum wage and no labor laws, and congress could go on serving those with the most money.


    power decides policy, as a result we have labor laws. the problem american labor has faced has been to sift through the very heavy propaganda and to organize, 2 very difficult tasks in the US. 1.5 million people protested in france the other week, they shut that country down. as a result they're going to get higher wages and better vacation pay. its much harder to accompish something like that in the US, the most indoctrinated country in the world.


    but power lies in the hands of the working class. if the working class calls in sick tomorrow, there is no country to run.
  • Posts: 4,984
    soulsinging wrote:
    show previous quotes

    You did all the work? Then why are you whining about not being able to get the funds to start up a restaurant? Surely, the owners did some work to get those funds? You whine about them having the best location. What kind of work do you think they had to to do to secure that location? They set up a great environment... that didn't take any work whatsoever for them to do?
    like I said, they've been getting by at the expense of others. other people work hard so they can benefit.

    I guess I just don't have it in me, to sell my soul to greed.
  • Posts: 2,130
    Commy wrote:
    [


    but power lies in the hands of the working class. if the working class calls in sick tomorrow, there is no country to run.

    i'm with you in theory, trust me i am, but i just don't think this is true anymore. At least not at this moment in our nation's history. Workers are expendable. They can be replaced all to easily. There are to many people without jobs that desperately want them and to many people with jobs that can't afford to lose them. They've got us by the balls.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Posts: 4,984
    cornnifer wrote:
    show previous quotes

    i'm with you in theory, trust me i am, but i just don't think this is true anymore. At least not at this moment in our nation's history. Workers are expendable. They can be replaced all to easily. There are to many people without jobs that desperately want them and to many people with jobs that can't afford to lose them. They've got us by the balls.
    nah. I'm talking about bus drivers and pilots. about restaurant workers and mail carriers. about textile workers and gm employees. about steel workers and manufacturers. about garbage trucks not running, and hotel employees not cleaning. you can only outsource so much. and only so fast.

    the people have the power. always will.


    people used to get a dollar a day to feed a family of 3. they risked that. they went on strike. and they won. US history is full of people, the underdog, standing up for what's right, and winning. that's where minimum wage came from, workers rights, environmental rights. people standing up for what's right. our past is full of desperate people standing up to the authorities, and winning.
  • Posts: 13,202
    Commy wrote:
    wrong. first of all servers carry food around. that's it. anyone can do that. few people go to a restaurant to see how well people can carry food around. they go to taste the food, and not everyone can cook.

    its because of labor that we have minimum wage and hour laws. without organized labor we would have neither.

    power decides policy, as a result we have labor laws. the problem american labor has faced has been to sift through the very heavy propaganda and to organize, 2 very difficult tasks in the US. 1.5 million people protested in france the other week, they shut that country down. as a result they're going to get higher wages and better vacation pay. its much harder to accompish something like that in the US, the most indoctrinated country in the world.

    but power lies in the hands of the working class. if the working class calls in sick tomorrow, there is no country to run.

    I once fucked up Easy Mac, but even I can cook a burger. Good cooks are valuable, but they're not brain surgeons and they CAN be trained. But the way you say that piques my interest... because are you saying servers are less worthy of protection? Less special? For someone arguing against classes, you seem to have a pretty superior and condescending attitude towards those lowly servers. Have you waited tables? Have you tried handling people and dealing with the public in a service position? I can assure, it's a touch more complicated than simply carrying food. And people also come to restaurants for good service and atmosphere, entire chains like Applebees are built around that.

    But my point is soley that you can be replaced. Maybe that owner didn't do a good job of it, but ti sounds like his restaurant is still operating and making money. Maybe he was willing to trade off a little profit and quality in order to not have to listen to your sanctimonious and self-righteous labor sermons.

    Cornnifer is right... workers are easily replaces nowadays. Fire a taxi driver, and you can find about 20 waiting in line to replace him. Walmart has resisted serious labor organization with ease. Unions have run their course... they're operating on 20th century practices in a 21st century economy and if they don't wake the fuck up and adapt they will all be begging those capitalists to let them mop their floors before long.

    You mentioned France... do you have any idea how bad their economy is? Their unemployment is through the roof and their students organize to protest and burn shit to the ground constantly because there are NO jobs there. None. We're not far behind.

    I am curious about what you mean by those 2 difficult tasks labor faces. Organizing I understand. But what "propaganda" are you talking about and what does labor have to "sift through it" for?
  • Posts: 13,202
    Commy wrote:
    nah. I'm talking about bus drivers and pilots. about restaurant workers and mail carriers. about textile workers and gm employees. about steel workers and manufacturers. about garbage trucks not running, and hotel employees not cleaning. you can only outsource so much. and only so fast.

    the people have the power. always will.

    people used to get a dollar a day to feed a family of 3. they risked that. they went on strike. and they won. US history is full of people, the underdog, standing up for what's right, and winning. that's where minimum wage came from, workers rights, environmental rights. people standing up for what's right. our past is full of desperate people standing up to the authorities, and winning.

    The people do not have the power and never have. History is dominated by the powerful, wealthy, and elite.

    Also, those people got a dollar a day to feed a family of 3. They had no choice. And they'd call you a pansy for your weepy sermons about the injustice of getting $6 an hour plus benefits plus federally guaranteed vacation time, health standards, social security, etc. If the OP had his salary cut to $1 a day, I'd be all on his side. But the thought of organizing under these conditions is a joke. Unions aren't dying because The Man is keeping them down. They're dying because they've outlived their usefulness and because most people here in the US realize that they've got it better than 95% of the world.
  • Posts: 6,801
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    that's not true. take my case as an example...


    I worked in a restaraunt that made $13 million a year. we did something like $30,000 a night, weekends maybe...maybe more.


    there were 7 of us. we did everything in the kitchen, cooking the food to a 18-22 minute time frame, made sure it was top of the line, and did it for 600 people at a time. every night we fucking rocked.


    now, from an owner standpoint, they did nothing. the GM did nothing. it was all about the chef and the cooks, the servers fell in line. we made that restaraunt...if it wasn't for us the company would collapse. and we made them 13 million that year.

    so I would say the people doing the most work for that company were us, the cooks and the chef. I was getting $12/hour and was fine with that...but the owners were getting millions, literally, and doing nothing. that's 1 example of how the CEO's benefit from the labor of the working class. but there are thousands.,

    The owners were assuming the risks and put up the initial capital to start the business. I know you said you were fine with it, but if you wanted to make millions like the owners for doing "nothing" why didn't you all just start your own restaurant?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • MA Posts: 7,314
    SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:
    i have always gotten a good chuckle when people have that type of attitude...

    "my company NEEDS me"
    "my company would NEVER think of firing me"
    "my company is LUCKY they have me"
    "my company will go out of business if they ever got rid of me"

    because its not too long after those silly statements are made.....that the person soon says.....

    "i cant believe they fired me"

    Exactly. I think part of it is that as soon as you feel like you are indispensable, you let down your guard and relax a little. You think no-one else could fill in and do your little niche tasks, when in reality there are thousands of people who can do exactly what you do. Next thing you know you're behind in work, or your quality has gone down, and boom...you're in a bad spot. Never feel like your company would be screwed if you left. Flip that around and always feel like you have to continually prove and better yourself. When layoffs come around, your boss will look to keep the over-achievers and the ones who stick out as always being flexible and ahead of the curve. If you feel like the writing is on the wall, it probably is.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • Posts: 2,130
    Commy wrote:
    nah. I'm talking about bus drivers and pilots. about restaurant workers and mail carriers. about textile workers and gm employees. about steel workers and manufacturers. about garbage trucks not running, and hotel employees not cleaning. you can only outsource so much. and only so fast.

    the people have the power. always will.


    people used to get a dollar a day to feed a family of 3. they risked that. they went on strike. and they won. US history is full of people, the underdog, standing up for what's right, and winning. that's where minimum wage came from, workers rights, environmental rights. people standing up for what's right. our past is full of desperate people standing up to the authorities, and winning.

    Again, i don't disagree with your sentiments. "From each that which he is capable, to each that which he needs" is a concept i fully support. i just don't think the common "people" have nearly as much power as they may have once had. i'm not even talking about outsourcing. i'm talking about potential workers right here waiting to fill positions. Garbage truck drivers, mail carriers, hotel workers etc, all provide valuable services with social value, but are, let's face it, fairly easily replaced. Even i, a college educated professional who is unsatisfied with my very meager compensation (especially when compared to other college educated professionals) hold very little power as i know that there are others just waiting to fill the void should i decide to play my hand. My tenders are in a vice, so to speak.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Posts: 10,822
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes




    the restaurant business is hit or miss.


    I'm talking about labor, not ideas. as employees we are notoriously strapped for cash. we spend what we make, and we enjoy our free time, more so than other industries, I'm sure. what could we have done? even if we pooled our money... if we decided, that for the sake of a business venture, we were going to take out a loan and start a restaurant...we wouldn't have had the advantages of the owners of the restaurant we were literally running. they were on elliot bay, in the same building as the marina. prime location. they were a step ahead before we began. they had the funds going in to set up an environment that very few people could compete with.

    the owners got by on the hard work of others, and that's the backbone of capitalism. they had the means to start that restaurant, through exploiting labor, and are probably going to continue that in the future. for us to compete with them we would need more than the 13-20 of us could come up with, its unrealistic.

    what I know is how to run a restaurant. and we ran that place, like no one since. not to be pissy or nostalgic, that restaurant has gone to shit since we left, the owners have been set back, and it came down to not respecting their employees-the people that literally ran the business. all i am saying is that we should have been given a cut of the profit, since we did all the work. and I think that's a realistic demand. I'm sure in hindsight the owners would agree. they've literally lost millions.

    Somewhere along the lines, the owners took risks to build up their wealth, so its not as if they magically created the money to invest in the restaurant.

    Its seems as if you were paid an above-average wage, so that was their way of giving you a share of the profits. Being that you think you deserved a share of the profits, would you also have been prepared to fund the losses that may have occured?
  • Posts: 4,984
    JOEJOEJOE wrote:

    Somewhere along the lines, the owners took risks to build up their wealth, so its not as if they magically created the money to invest in the restaurant.

    Its seems as if you were paid an above-average wage, so that was their way of giving you a share of the profits. Being that you think you deserved a share of the profits, would you also have been prepared to fund the losses that may have occured?
    my disagreement is with capitalism. this is just a specific case that kind of magnifies the problem. the wealthy minority benefit from the labor of the majority.
  • Posts: 10,822
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    my disagreement is with capitalism. this is just a specific case that kind of magnifies the problem. the wealthy minority benefit from the labor of the majority.

    Well, what would you propose as a more equitable business model?

    From where should the start-up capital come? Who should be responsible for funding any potential losses?

    Do you think that the a government should own all of the businesses?
  • Posts: 9,722
    I have two family members with this situation. One of them had a contract that on X date he will make X amount more. The company told him flat out, we just can't do the raise anymore. Since he can't find a better job at the time, he's staying at the normal pay.

    I'd tread carefully, unless you have a backup plan for employment. I'm not saying you are not in the right - but just be careful.
    ADD 5,200 to the post count you see, thank you. :)
    *NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
    *MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
    *Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
    *Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
    *Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
    *VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
    *EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
    *Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
  • Posts: 2,130
    Commy wrote:
    my disagreement is with capitalism. this is just a specific case that kind of magnifies the problem. the wealthy minority benefit from the labor of the majority.

    Yep. Its complete bullshit.
    i'm just not sure anymore that there is dick we can do about it.
    "When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
  • Posts: 13,202
    Commy wrote:
    show previous quotes
    my disagreement is with capitalism. this is just a specific case that kind of magnifies the problem. the wealthy minority benefit from the labor of the majority.

    See, now there I agree with you. I don't think capitalism is good or sustainable. My points was only that if, as you claimed initially, workers had all the power, capitalism would be just fine. But they don't, which is why capitalism is dangerous.
  • Posts: 2,261
    to the OP id be very careful. if you do "organize" , make sure that what you're doing is actually LEGAL (i realise thats why ur asking for lawyers), dont go making it worse than it is.

    You dont really have it that bad if you're keeping your job. Harsh but true.

Welcome!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.
Sign In
Register

Quick Links

Categories