From an email I sent to a friend on religion. Any opinions?

redmosquito10 · May 2008

But if we're born with atheistic tendencies why would we look to that explanation rather than developing scientific method and whatnot earlier on? It might just be that living in this day and age it's hard for me to grasp, but if human nature is to not believe in a higher power, why, when I don't understand something, would my first explanation be a higher power, and not a more scientific attempt at understanding it?

Rhinocerous Surprise · May 2008

Collin wrote:

I agree. I'm only saying that having knowledge of, or understanding the bible is not a prerequisite for atheism.

Absolutely.:) I think it might be the fact that I study anthropology that makes me actively learn about religions - not the fact that I want to sit down and argue the finer points of the Gospel of Yorkie Peters with a priest.

Rhinocerous Surprise · May 2008

redmosquito10 wrote:

But if we're born with atheistic tendencies why would we look to that explanation rather than developing scientific method and whatnot earlier on? It might just be that living in this day and age it's hard for me to grasp, but if human nature is to not believe in a higher power, why, when I don't understand something, would my first explanation be a higher power, and not a more scientific attempt at understanding it?

If we weren't born with atheistic tendencies, would scientists have continued to research thing we could just attribute to "god's work"? By now, I think religion survives on tradition, for the most part - science is explaining a lot more than it could 2000 years ago.

Jeremy1012 · May 2008

redmosquito10 wrote:

But if we're born with atheistic tendencies why would we look to that explanation rather than developing scientific method and whatnot earlier on? It might just be that living in this day and age it's hard for me to grasp, but if human nature is to not believe in a higher power, why, when I don't understand something, would my first explanation be a higher power, and not a more scientific attempt at understanding it?

For the same reason that physicists invent new particles that can never be detected whenever their calculations don't work. If something makes no sense, invent an explanation that cannot be proved wrong. Even the incredible scope for bullshitting that comes with science can't explain ALL THIS so people come out with more creative ways.

redmosquito10 · May 2008

Also I'd just like to point out that I have no problem with atheism, I don't personally hold that belief (or non-belief, however you want to put it), but I also don't hold religious beliefs. I also don't think that saying that atheism is not human nature makes the case for it any weaker or stronger, I just think it's a strange claim to make.

redmosquito10 · May 2008

Jeremy1012 wrote:

For the same reason that physicists invent new particles that can never be detected whenever their calculations don't work. If something makes no sense, invent an explanation that cannot be proved wrong. Even the incredible scope for bullshitting that comes with science can't explain ALL THIS so people come out with more creative ways.

Well, that's part of what my belief in a God is founded on. In my view, traditional religion failed to explain everything, science has failed to explain everything, and I'm completely open to the idea that humans just aren't capable of understanding everything, but to me, the fact that there are so many inexplicable forces at work in our universe is at least some indication of some type of higher power, and not necessarily the traditional concept of God

Collin · May 2008

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

Absolutely.:) I think it might be the fact that I study anthropology that makes me actively learn about religions - not the fact that I want to sit down and argue the finer points of the Gospel of Yorkie Peters with a priest.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm very interested in religions.

Rhinocerous Surprise · May 2008

redmosquito10 wrote:

Also I'd just like to point out that I have no problem with atheism, I don't personally hold that belief (or non-belief, however you want to put it), but I also don't hold religious beliefs. I also don't think that saying that atheism is not human nature makes the case for it any weaker or stronger, I just think it's a strange claim to make.

I'll put it to you this way: if you were born into a proverbial vaccuum, with no religious influence from parents, schools, churches, etc, would your first instinct be to say "Oh yeah, God's work. All of it"?

Jeremy1012 · May 2008

redmosquito10 wrote:

Well, that's part of what my belief in a God is founded on. In my view, traditional religion failed to explain everything, science has failed to explain everything, and I'm completely open to the idea that humans just aren't capable of understanding everything, but to me, the fact that there are so many inexplicable forces at work in our universe is at least some indication of some type of higher power, and not necessarily the traditional concept of God

I don't disagree with any of that, nor do I agree. I am uncertain about these things because unlike those who claim to KNOW that there is a god and those who claim to know that there isn't, I accept my fallibility. I still see no need for religion. Higher power or not, I don't UNDERSTAND the concept of religion. It's completely unnecessary to me. Who gives a shit if there is a higher power? It hasn't revealed itself to me in my life and if it's there, I'm going to keep living the same way and not worry about it. In this way, I consider myself an atheist, even though I am spiritual and do not necessarily reject all notions of higher power. I have no need for an entity God. I am happy not knowing everything and enjoy wondering. I don't feel the need to go to church every sunday to validate my existence. I can sit on a beach at sunset and say "wow... this is incredible" and not feel the need to explain it to myself.

redmosquito10 · May 2008

Rhinocerous Surprise wrote:

I'll put it to you this way: if you were born into a proverbial vaccuum, with no religious influence from parents, schools, churches, etc, would your first instinct be to say "Oh yeah, God's work. All of it"?

What I'm saying is I have no idea, but the first conclusion that humans as a species came to when they were in that basic situation was to look to a higher power. And honestly, I didn't have very strong influences on me as a kid, so I was able to develop my views pretty independently, with some help from some great thinkers/writers

redmosquito10 · May 2008

Jeremy1012 wrote:

I don't disagree with any of that, nor do I agree. I am uncertain about these things because unlike those who claim to KNOW that there is a god and those who claim to know that there isn't, I accept my fallibility. I still see no need for religion. Higher power or not, I don't UNDERSTAND the concept of religion. It's completely unnecessary to me. Who gives a shit if there is a higher power? It hasn't revealed itself to me in my life and if it's there, I'm going to keep living the same way and not worry about it. In this way, I consider myself an atheist, even though I am spiritual and do not necessarily reject all notions of higher power. I have no need for an entity God. I am happy not knowing everything and enjoy wondering. I don't feel the need to go to church every sunday to validate my existence. I can sit on a beach at sunset and say "wow... this is incredible" and not feel the need to explain it to myself.

Well that's about how I feel too, I've just had some of those experiences you talk about not having. And trust me, my belief that there is some sort of higher power leaves me plenty of room to wonder, and enjoy that sense of wonder

Rhinocerous Surprise · May 2008

redmosquito10 wrote:

What I'm saying is I have no idea, but the first conclusion that humans as a species came to when they were in that basic situation was to look to a higher power. And honestly, I didn't have very strong influences on me as a kid, so I was able to develop my views pretty independently, with some help from some great thinkers/writers

That's cool. Like I said at the start of the thread, I'm not gonna waste anyone's time trying to change anyone's mind, cos it's not my place.

Cosmo · May 2008

Snake wrote:

I always wonder why the majority of atheists Ive heard are very bitter toward people who believe in God. Im not saying this same characteristic isnt shared by some OVERLY conservative Christians and others, but it seems even when they say something like "You have your faith , I dont mind, just dont force it on me" kinda thing, it still seems to me like they dont even want to hear you opinion. I for one believe In God, I know he exists because I have had experiences that I cant deny. I go to church, its a contemporary church, but I dont believe anyone whosoever should let someone else tell them what to believe. Its between you and God.
Another strange thing I have noticed is that most people I have heard that are majorly against religion and/or God, had a bad experience with either the catholic church or the baptist church, Im not dissin' anybody from either, but I really dont like either of them for the most part.
I believe in evolution, I cant understand why so many christians cant accept the idea that God created us to evolve. Thats what I think, that God created us, and other things, to evolve.

All in all, I really dont hate atheists, I just want to know what made them decide that there was no God. I feel sad for them, (I REALLY dont mean it in a demeaning way at all) It just makes me sad.

...
Have you ever heard of that saying... where God is like a mountain, which can be approached by many paths... which all reach to the top? Yeah, some paths are easier to ascend, while others are rough and trecherous. But, in the long run... they all end up at the same place.
to me... religions are the different paths. The God of the Bible, the Quran and the Torah are the same thing. He is also the same thing Buddhists, Hindus and native American Indians believe in... and the spiritualists. It's all the same and your way works for you. Just accept it and move on.
No need to worry about me. Just because I do not choose to folow in your footsteps, doesn't mean i'm looking for the same thing.
I have no problem with God... and my grievences with Religion is waning. I usually have problems when God's fans... who have time and time again shown me... act and say things that are in complete opposition of what they claim to be.
So... if i decide to take a more adventerous route to find God... that's on me. Let me be.

sponger · May 2008

The question is not whether or not there is a god, but whether or not it really matters if we know he/she is there.

At this point in time, it really doesn't matter if we know there is or isn't a god that is watching over us. The reason being is that even if there was a god, there is no way we could ever know that the bible, the koran, or any other script of organized religion represents "his wishes."

Often I hear of the religious talking as if they know something about humility just because they recognize that a god exists and follow his supposed wishes.

But, as far as I can tell, that is not a true sense of humility. The fact that we suddenly "behave" because we've discovered a "higher" being that is all powerful and is capable of laying down supreme consequences does not make us humble.

What makes us humble is our ability to see ourselves who for we really are, not for who we'd like to believe we are, and acknowledge in other people the parts of ourselves that we see in them.

That is true humility. That is an earnest pursuit of truth. But, that is an enormously difficult thing for EVERYONE to do because we naturally are at odds with one another as we compete for resources and a sense of status.

On top of that, the ability to be introspective (see into ourselves) is also extremely counter-intuitive (unnatural). We've been on this earth for thousands of years and only recently have we begun to understand our emotions, our patterns of thinking...etc. Even the simplest pattern of thinking that we all exhibit, the hierarchy of needs, was discovered in relatively recent history.

The concept of a god and religion steps in and fills the holes of understanding for which people yearn to be filled. That's why we see comments like this:

It seems clear to me that God didn't create a
truth so technically sophisticated that it would take
half a lifetime of text book research to catch a
glimpse of it, even if that was possible. If that was
the case then only the
most scientifically-oriented, intelligent few would be
saved by His gospel (the gospel is the story of
Christ's death and the explanation of it's saving purpose)
and the gospel itself (the thread of the entire
Bible) would be of little importance. Instead, as the
Bible states it, God simply exists and His creation
makes it obvious to all.

This is clearly just frustration over not being able to explain the inexplicable. That among other things is what fuels the desire for religion. People cannot stand the awkardness of ignorance. They refuse to acknowledge the HUMBLE nature of our simple existence.

So, that's why I say....religion teaches NOTHING about humility. Religion offers a solution to the frustration of a humble existence by offering a connection to something "higher."

If "God" was not a "higher" "supreme" being who is "all-powerful", then there would be no appeal.

Religion is, in fact, immoral. It teaches people to take on an immoral style of thinking towards their fellow man and to other living things.

A most recent example that I can think of is something I saw on Animal Planet the other day.

A veterinarian was saving the life of a stray cat, and she goes, "This cat deserves to live because it is one of god's creatures."

In other words, she did not have any true sense of compassion for this cat. Instead, she used her desire for a sense of "greatness" to motivate her to save the cat's life. Instead of, "I feel compassion for this cat because it is another living thing, and therefore I feel an emotional connection," she essentially went, "Because a supreme, all-powerful being wants me to keep this cat alive, it therefore deserves to live."

Sad, really, that religion does nothing more than suck any chance of a true humanitarian sense of well-being from a person's good-naturedness, and replaces it with a desire to fulfill the supposed wishes of a supreme being.

What makes it even more repugnant and inexcusably disgusting is that this groteseque approach to saving lives is often called "humility."

Snake · May 2008

Cosmo wrote:

...
Have you ever heard of that saying... where God is like a mountain, which can be approached by many paths... which all reach to the top? Yeah, some paths are easier to ascend, while others are rough and trecherous. But, in the long run... they all end up at the same place.
to me... religions are the different paths. The God of the Bible, the Quran and the Torah are the same thing. He is also the same thing Buddhists, Hindus and native American Indians believe in... and the spiritualists. It's all the same and your way works for you. Just accept it and move on.
No need to worry about me. Just because I do not choose to folow in your footsteps, doesn't mean i'm looking for the same thing.
I have no problem with God... and my grievences with Religion is waning. I usually have problems when God's fans... who have time and time again shown me... act and say things that are in complete opposition of what they claim to be.
So... if i decide to take a more adventerous route to find God... that's on me. Let me be.

Yea I totally agree with you. I think that God has revealed himself to many other people, and I know christianity isnt the only way. But yea I know what you mean, and I like that saying you mention.

Hopefully I didnt sound like I thought I was totally right and everyone else is wrong. I definitely dont want to come across that way. I believe a lot of things from other faiths and philosophies.

Strangest Tribe · May 2008

man created god, that's the facts

jack

the universe was already here

Urban Hiker · May 2008

I came out of the closet at work today.....

I told one of my most evangelical co-workers I'm an atheist.

I couldn't take it anymore - all of the God talk. She stated that she knew I believed as she did, so I felt compelled to let her in on what was apparently my little secret.

sponger · May 2008

Urban Hiker wrote:

so I felt compelled to let her in on what was apparently my little secret.

Gutsy, gutsy move. Most people, being the hopelessly ignorant creatures that they are, will have a hard time understanding. What's more is that they might even be afraid of the influence that religion might have at your place of work. You risk your job security.

Urban Hiker · May 2008

sponger wrote:

Gutsy, gutsy move. Most people, being the hopelessly ignorant creatures that they are, will have a hard time understanding. What's more is that they might even be afraid of the influence that religion might have at your place of work. You risk your job security.

I'm union represented, so I'm fine - probably the same reason people get to bring the church with them to work everyday at our office. :rolleyes:

LikeAnOcean · May 2008

Whats the point of arguing about something we know nothing about?.. its cool to discuss and bring up theories, but people who argue about faith are idiots. It even says it in the name, FAITH. Not fact, faith.. that goes for athiests too. If you argue, you are guilty.

From an email I sent to a friend on religion. Any opinions?

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