From an email I sent to a friend on religion. Any opinions?

ClimberInOz wrote:

In the past I read studies which seem to reveal the extreme inaccuracies of carbon dating (with an error margin of well over 100 million years) and other methods.

Carbon dating is a method that is only applicable to fossils less than 60 000 years old. Wherever you read about the 100 million year error margin needs a fairly basic lesson in both science and maths.

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Maybe it was another method I was thinking of or maybe I was just off on the figure. I was in over my head making that statement because it has been about four years or more since I did any studying on the methods. I'm guessing the two links I posted were some that I read back then. I scanned over those links again last night. Those authors seem to have a bone to pick about carbon dating and other methods for some reason. That's all I know about the subject other than what you've explained.

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I would be curious as to what errors/innacuracies you have discovered in the god delusion... Perhaps there are some mis-interpretations of biblical texts, (although can you mis-interpret something that is open for interpretation?). Certainly the book has almost no scientific errors, (at least none that I could pick up).[/quote]

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You could probably find more thorough answers to that at equip.org than I could give. I will say that he had no basis at all for labeling Jesus as a false prophet. I hinted as to why in a previous post but it would take hours of typing for a full explanation. In short, he can't rightfully focus on one method of eschalogical interpretation and claim Jesus errored, when there are multiple eschalogical methods of interpretation which use Jesus' statement in multiple ways.

ClimberInOz wrote:

Whilst I have read the bible, I would be in no position to argue the interpretation of it. As an atheist I am interested in the history of the bible, but don't see it as infallible and therefore don't have much of an opinion on the correct interpretation of it.

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Although you haven't mentioned it, since the release of The Divinci Code some people have been caught up in studying the gnostic gospels. There are COUNTLESS historical inaccuracies stemming from the gnostic gospels. A lot of it's claims are completely ridiculous. I'd advise anyone not to even waste any time with them. There have also been an abundance of historians and Christian authors write books refuting these. equip.org has a bunch.

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In the end a scientist is probably not going to convince belivers that their is no god by criticizing the bible/koran etc... Just as a believer is unlikely to convince an atheist that their is a god by discounting scientific theories just because they contradict the bible.

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I think you're right.

In case anyone is interested in having an idea of God's nature in response to non-christians. This example was used in scripture for this purpose:

The Prodigal Son - Luke 15. 11-32

And he said, A certain man had two sons:
And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants
And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing.
And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and entreated him.
And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.


There are some creationism scientists worth checking out, as well as some highly respected cross over scientists. Lee Strobel's "The Case for a Creator" could be a starting point, but finding the names of cross overs would require a seperate search.

And so, the older brother arrives. "And when he approached the house he heard music and dancing,"and then it should say, "And he rushed in to his father and said, 'Father, what's all the joy about?'" But he doesn't do that. If he loved his father, he would have rushed into the house and said, "What's going on? What's going on?" And his father would have said, "Your brother's home," and he would have embraced his father and rejoiced with tears because he knew his father loved his brother. He knew he had ached in his heart as long as he was gone, and he knew he had gone out to look for him day after day, even though he didn't know he was back...noone had told him yet. Whatever made his father rejoice would make him rejoice if he loved his father. But he has no love for his father at all, he has a love for himself. It's all about him and his property and his reputation and his prestige."


"And he says to him, verse 27, "Oh, your brother has come." Oh-oh, that should have filled his heart with joy. That should have been enough that after that was said he rushed in because he knew how his brother's life had started out when he left. He must have been so anxious and excited to find out how that whole thing had ended up. He knew his father's heart had been broken when his brother left. He knew how he regularly looked for him and longed for him. If he loved his father at that point, he would have immediately run in. But it really was fear that his brother would come back. "Your brother has come and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound." His worst fears, his brother came back, oh, and his father...what?...received him."

This outrageous conduct is more than this older brother can bear. Look at the phrase "safe and sound," that's a funny thing, isn't it? An Old English colloquialism that seems to last in our modern translations. It's actually hugiaino in the Greek from which we get hygiene and it basically means wholeness, well-being. But in the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the Old Testament, that word is almost always connected to Shalom which means...what?...peace. That's really what he's saying. It's not that he's not physically hurt, it's not limited to that. He's received him back in peace. This is not just good health, this is Shalom, this is peace of a full reconciliation between a father and son. It isn't his son came back and the father told him to sit at the edge of town for a week and think about what he had done until he gained a right to talk to his father and then he'd give him the things he needed to do to earn back his reconciliation. Not that. The father received him and he received him in Shalom, he's made peace. Shalom forever. That's why there's a party. There wouldn't be a party if he had come back and had to work for the next twenty years. This...this is the worst possible scenario because now the father is using his resources on this party. The son has already depleted the whole family treasury by taking his half, selling cheaply and leaving which meant that that whole thing couldn't grow so that the older son when the father did die would have more. Now he's back depleting more of our family resources. And the foolish father is using those resources on him. The son is the favorite guest at the banquet but the banquet is really in honor of the father. The town is there to celebrate a father who's that merciful and gracious and kind and loving in reconciling. You see, that's the picture of heaven's joy. And a legalist who thinks you earn your way to heaven doesn't understand that God's joy is found in justifying the ungodly, that God's joy is found in forgiving the sinner who is bankrupt and has nothing. The older son, that's why his worst fears have come true. His brother's back, his father has embraced him, this is outrageous. And for the first time in the story the Pharisees are saying, "Yep, that's exactly the right attitude, that's exactly what he should feel. He should be outraged. We are outraged. This whole story is just one outrage after another."


And so he can't be a part of a shameful event. His son has shamed himself. His father has continually shamed himself. He's gotten the whole community involved in this shameful celebration. And he's not going to be a part of it, verse 28, "He became angry and was not willing to go in."

Of course not. Boy, I'm reminded of Matthew 23, "Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the Kingdom of Heaven from men and you do not enter in yourselves or do you allow those who are entering to go in." You don't have any way into that Kingdom because your understanding of salvation is so warped. That was perhaps the most significant indictment in the Matthew 23 diatribe against them, that they did not enter the Kingdom and nor where they leading anyone else into it. Later in that same chapter He said, "Outwardly you appear righteous to men, inwardly you're full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." Hypocrites are all sinners on the inside because hypocrisy has no way to constrain the flesh internally.


Of course he wouldn't go in. He hated the idea of grace. He resented this mercy and this instant reconciliation.

It's amazing. It says in verse 28, "And his father came out and began entreating him." Here we see God the initiator again. Here we see God in Christ the seeker, just as in the case of the younger son, the father came down out of his house and ran right down to the middle of town for all to see, bearing the scorn and the shame of the embarrassment of violating public common conventional behavior. And he did it to embrace the sinner and protect him from the shame. Here the father leaves the festival, goes out and does what you would never expect God to do, beg a sinner, beg a hypocrite. But He is the one who seeks to save the lost.


When the information, obviously, about the older son reaches the father, the word comes to him that his son is on the outside and he's not going to come in. He now knows he has his second rebel son and we're now going to find out how God feels about religious hypocrites. What they would have expected...what they would have expected was that the father would be absolutely insulted by this. It is a blatant insult. It is an utter disregard for the father's honor, the father's joy, the brother's well-being. He shows himself as having no love for either of them. And the traditional Middle Eastern response would be to take the son and give him a public beating for such dishonor. But nothing goes the way you'd think it's going to go in this story. It's just one breach of perceived honor after another after another, after another, after another. But instead of the father ordering him to be beaten and locked in a room somewhere until he can be dealt with, the insulted dishonored father comes out. And he starts begging him. Here he shows up again in condescension. Here he shows up again in mercy. Here he shows up again in compassion and love and humility and kindness, leaves the party, comes out, goes into the night with everybody watching and the buzz sure is going to go through and they know what's going on. Another act of selfless love kindly toward this son in the same way that he ran to embrace the younger son. He goes out in mercy and he reaches to the hypocrite the same way he reached to the rebel.

I want you to notice the word "entreating" there. It says that he began entreating him, parakaleo, that's a very, very common word, it's actually a word that comes in a noun form. The paraclete meaning the Holy Spirit, the one who comes alongside, entreating is to come alongside to speak to, to come right alongside someone. That is he comes right out and goes alongside his son. And he pleads with him, and he calls him to come to the kingdom, to come to his house, to come to the celebration. And this son with whom the Pharisees and scribes are so clearly identified should have brought them face-to-face with themselves and their complete ignorance of the father whom they said they served. Oh, they were in the house, they were around, they were the religious ones, they were the dutiful ones, they were the moral ones. But they didn't know God, they didn't know the heart of God. They had no understanding of the joy of God. They had no interest in the recovery of lost sinners. They refused to honor God for saving grace which has always been the way God saved. They see Jesus, in fact, as satanic. And as Jesus said in John 5:23, "If they honored the Father, they would honor Me." They refused to go in.

Verse 30 carries on a further assault on his father's character, integrity and virtue. "But when this son of yours," he won't even say my brother, so much disdain in him, "When this son of yours came who has devoured your wealth with harlots, you killed the fattened calf for him. You don't give me a goat, but you kill the fattened calf for him, this son of yours." Wow, you can cut that contempt with a knife.

How did he know...how did he know that he had used all that money with harlots? Because Jesus said he knew in the story. Just a little insight that tells us more about the behavior of the first son in the story and there, of course, characters that Jesus has fabricated. And so this is part of the story. This is to emphasize again that this man has lived as low as low gets. Add that to all the rest of the horror of his behavior. Some people have suggested that he made this up just out of scorn. But there's nothing in the text that says that. We assume that if Jesus puts it in his mouth, it was a reflection of what Jesus wanted us to know about the behavior of the younger son.



So here is something juxtaposed against a celebration that's pretty stark. You've got a celebration going on with music and dancing and the younger son and the feast and it's just a high time of joy. And out in the dark of the night you've got this horrific assault going on and the older brother is attacking the virtue, the integrity, the character of his father. All that he had kept in for all those years explodes out of him, all that fake respect and honor is gone. The facade is off. The cover is blown. And while they're all inside honoring that father, he's on the outside heaping contempt on him. This is the Pharisees. They saw themselves as righteous. They saw themselves as just. They therefore sat in judgment on God in Christ and they condemned Jesus for His mercy, compassion, love, and the gospel of grace. And the Pharisees would see this older brother, yeah, and this is righteous indignation, this is for finally in the story we have somebody who holds up honor.



You know, in his mind a Pharisee would think that son should be dead. If you spend your money on harlots, you get killed. Deuteronomy 21:18 to 21, you get stoned to death. He should be dead. Instead of dead, look at the party. This is incongruous. This is outrageous. This is shameful, everything about it. It's a shameful reaction by the son who is looking at the whole thing as shameful.



By the way, a little note here. You killed the fattened calf for him...not really...not really. The fattened calf wasn't really killed for the son, he was killed for the father. The father is the one who gives the credit...gets the credit, I should say, he's the reconciler. He determines who is going to be reconciled and under what terms. He's the one who ran and embraced and kissed. It really was a celebration of the father. But his anger has completely blinded him. And he has no knowledge of his father. The father is the main figure at the feast. The father is the one they're all honoring for such loving forgiveness. And the people will accept the younger son because it's against convention to accept him. It would be against the norm to accept him back under those conditions. But they will because the father has. And so it's really the father who is being celebrated, just as in the end, in heaven, the joy of heaven, the eternal joy of the angels and all the redeemed that gather around the throne of God and even the joy of God is the joy that comes to God Himself for being the reconciler. When we go to heaven, the direction of our praise isn't going to be toward the sinners, it's going to be toward the Savior.



So here is this great feast and all the celebration honoring the father. And here at the same time is this son who heaps dishonor on the father simultaneously. It's the picture, the party symbolizes all the sinners who have collected around God to honor Him for their salvation. And outside are the Pharisees who are heaping scorn upon the Father God in Christ.



Then there's a shameful response. From another angle, verse 31, "He said to him, 'My child, you've always been with me, all that's mine is yours.'" What a tender response. That would be...that would be shameful in the eyes of the villagers. They would say, "Wait, you should finally somebody slap this guy. I mean, enough is enough, this mercy is getting a little over the top here. Please." But he says, "My child," teknon, eight times in this section huios, the more formal word for son. Tekna, my boy, my child, it's speaking in grieving, painful, agonizing, compassionate love and mercy. He speaks to him in endearing terms and that's the heart of God toward a wretched hypocrite. Wow, is there any question about God being a loving, compassionate Savior? The son uses no title, no respect. The son attacks the virtue, the integrity, the justice and the righteousness of the father. The son is saying in effect, "You need to be forgiven by me for the outrageous and unjust and dishonorable conduct that you have perpetrated." And here you see the patience of God with the sinners, even hypocrites. Sometimes, you know, it's easier to be patient with prodigals than it is with hypocrites. I will confess that. We all love a great story about a wicked, outrageous sinner who is converted, but we aren't nearly as excited about a hypocrite that's converted. And, of course, that's even more rare. People who are in false religion don't come as often. In fact, this is a footnote, it never say sin all four gospels that a Pharisee believed on Jesus and was saved. Nicodemus was a Pharisee and it implies that he came. Later on, Paul the Pharisee, was saved on the Damascus road, those are the only two. But he says to him, "Look, my child," endearing terms. "You've been around."


The father knows he's estranged. You've been around here superficially. Everything has always been available, it's all here. I always think of that when I think of people who misinterpret the Scripture. You know, cults, false religions, it's here. It's all here. You've always had it. If you ever wanted a relationship with Me, I was here and everything I have was here. And look what he says, "All that is mine is yours. I don't ever have to split it up." And here's the picture of the magnanimity of God and the endlessness of His grace and His resources, it's all for all who come to Him. It will never be yours with your attitude. It will never be yours by works. You'll never earn it. But it's here if you ever want to establish a relationship with Me.

And verse 32 goes back to the main theme. "We had to be merry and rejoice. We had to." It's not like we had an option. "For this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found." We had no choice...why? This is what causes joy to God. This is heaven's joy. It can't be restrained. It can't be delayed. It can't be postponed. It can't be subdued. It can't be mitigated. It can't be lessened. Divine joy is released when one sinner repents and is reconciled. And heaven's joy will be released not just for a prodigal, not just for someone who's immoral and irreligious and blatantly sinful, but for secret sinners, rebels, the religious, the moral, the hypocrites, the ones whose lawlessness is all on the inside. God is saying here, Christ is saying, "I go out into the street for the prodigal and I go out into the courtyard for you. I humble Myself and take on public shame for the prodigal. And I humble Myself and take on public shame for you. I come with compassion and love and forgiveness and I am ready to embrace you and to kiss you and to give you full sonship with all its privileges, not just if you're the prodigal, but even if you're the hypocrite." He's really inviting him to salvation. You can come to the party if you choose, if you recognize your true spiritual condition, if you come home you can take possession of everything that's always been there.



The younger son was overwhelmed with his father's grace. Immediately confessed his sin, confessed his unworthiness in the very most magnanimous ways and he received instantaneous forgiveness, reconciliation, sonship all the rights and privileges that the father had at his disposal to give. He entered into the celebration of the father's joy, that is eternal salvation. And as I've been saying, that joy goes on in heaven forever.



The older son, the same tenderness, the same kindness, the same mercy, offered the same grace, reacts with bitter resentment, attacks the virtue, the integrity of the father. And his father makes one final appeal. "My child, it's all here. We had to celebrate, implied, and we will celebrate for you too if you come."

And it stops in verse 32, isn't that strange? What do you have hanging in your mind right now? Do you have a question there? I do. This is not an ending. What happened? Right? What did he do. You don't end a story without an ending, it's...and I guess this is another one of a series of shocks. After all of this you're waiting, you're waiting, you're waiting and it stops. And, you know, if you had been listening to the whole thing you'd say, "Come on." It's like a joke with no punch line that lasts a long time. We're all saying the same thing, what did he do? What did the older son do? The guests are all there. They're waiting. They know what's going on outside because the word is going in. What did he do? The guests are waiting, they want to know if he comes in. Having embraced and kissed his older son who repented, they want to know if he humbled himself, if he fell down before his father and sought grace for his long hypocrisy and bitter service. They want to know if he was forgiven and reconciled and they would love to see the father come in with his arm around his son, bringing him to the head table and sitting him next to his brother. Wouldn't that be great?



Now that's...you know, there are a lot of stories like this, you just sort of write your own ending. By the way, just from a technical standpoint. The story is divided into two halves. The first half has eight stanzas and they feature the younger brother. The second half has eight stanzas and they...has seven stanzas, I should say, and they feature the older brother. It should be eight and eight, but it's eight and seven. And in the symmetry of the story there's a lot of technical things that show you the symmetry of the story that I haven't pointed out, but you have eight and then all of a sudden strangely you have seven. And so even in hearing the story, reading the story you would say it should be eight and eight, because that would be the symmetry that would be designed into that kind of Middle Eastern prose. The end isn't there. There's one section missing.



Now I would love to write one. I think maybe this would be good, "And the older son fell on his knees before his father saying, 'I repent for my loveless cold service, my pride and selfishness. Forgive me, father, make me a true son, take me to the feast.' At which point the father embraced and kissed him, took him in and seated him at his table by his brother and all rejoiced in the sons who had been reconciled to their loving father."



I like that. Or maybe another shorter one. "The son seeing his father's love, compassion and grace came to his senses about his wicked heart, was humbled, repented and reconciled."



But you know what? I don't get to write the end. Who wrote the end? The Pharisees wrote the end. Here's the end they wrote. "And the older son being outraged at his father, picked up a piece of wood and beat him to death in front of everyone." That's the ending they wrote. That's the cross and that's what they did just a few months after this. And, by the way, congratulated themselves on their righteous act that preserved the honor of Israel and Judaism and true religion and God. Let's pray.


What an ironic thing it is, God, that the father should have beaten the son, is beaten by the son to death in the greatest act of evil the world has ever seen. And yet, and yet, O God, out of that horrible ending of killing Your Son with wood came our redemption. The final shameful resolution of the story is the cross but out of that You have wrought our redemption for on that cross He died to bear our sins and what the leaders of Israel meant for evil, You meant for good. We thank You for this glorious salvation.



While your heads are bowed for just a moment. I don't know where you see yourself in this story, we're all there, either you're the open sinner or the hidden one, or some degree of that, or you're restored to the Father and you really do identify with the Father's heart. You're one of those folks at the party. You have gathered around Him as one of the redeemed to celebrate. I hope that's true. But if you're still estranged from God living in sin, or estranged from God living in secret lawlessness, corrupt on the inside, come to the Father who has borne shame for you, who has come down and run the gauntlet to embrace you and protect you from the shame you deserve, who has come out into the night, who's left his throne to plead with a hypocrite, this is our gracious and good God who delights in mercy and finds His joy in forgiveness."