From an email I sent to a friend on religion. Any opinions?

Jeremy1012

mikesguitar wrote:

Were/are you a Christian at the time you felt like God lacked support on your behalf? If so, God has promised not to lose anyone who belongs to Christ. That doesn't always mean Christians won't go through tough times though.

No I wasn't and never have been although I used to believe in God. I have never been religious. If God exists, and I don't think he does, I was created by him. I was given my ability to understand the world around me by him and I never felt his presence. And when I needed someone the most there was nothing. That's the reason why I don't believe in God and if he exists I reject him because he rejected me. I don't care for all this "if in your hour of need you turned to God you would have found him" crap. If god is all powerful and benevolent he shouldn't NEED my belief. If he exists, He MADE me and he made me who I am. He made me not believe and then he rejected me because of it. I don't need that kind of god. If he exists, and this is all largely just irrelevant because I don't believe, he can go fuck himself as far as I'm concerned. How's that for blasphemy? I don't need some petty, controlling, selfish, jealous, insecure god.

All the God I need is in the people and things that I love and that love me. I'm not going to follow any dogma.

ps, this wasn't aimed at you, or rather not at you personally as a christian, I'm just answering your question honestly

mikesguitar

ps, this wasn't aimed at you, or rather not at you personally as a christian, I'm just answering your question honestly

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Hey, no problem, no offense on my part. Thanks also for clarifying that.

I felt similar years ago. I followed God's lead some after that and other times I rebelled. Each time I rebelled I noticed God's loving discipline in my life, which I now appreciate more than I can describe. In time I found myself following God's lead more often than I rebelled until finally I came to the point of not turning away from God any. I'm not saying I came to the point of not ever sinning. I came to the point of wanting to follow God continuously. I'm just commenting here. I understand that you have your mind made up. I can accept that. Cya.

Collin

mikesguitar wrote:

The thought of the supreme creator of the universe being on trial seems odd to me. Hell wasn't created for man. It was created for Satan and fallen angels. People can 'choose' hell as their destination despite God's warnings to avoid it and despite His offer of salvation. We're talking about responsible adults who constantly reject every attempt God makes to reach them.

God has never made attempt to reach me, he never made an attempt to reach thousands. A different god reach out the other folks... etc.

Ok, so even though in this life people actualize themselves as God haters to the end of their days, they should be free to hate God in heaven? So maybe each day when a grand feast is held in honor of Christ the God haters should be free to mock Him like other haters did while He was on the cross? Maybe instead of being worshipped in heaven Christ should re-
experience the cross each day? Would heaven (the recreated earth where heaven will be) be much different than the current earth if it was filled with God haters? The Bible, in Luke for one instance, claims that unbelievers would remain unbelievers even if someone previously dead descended from heaven and pleaded with them.

So the all forgiving Jesus and the all loving father sends the people they love so much into hell, because they chose to burn in hell eternally.

Real cool, Jesus the savior, he forgives every man, every sinner, loves every one... But once they come up to heaven it's literally to hell with them. Fuck 'em, I don't want those nasty sinner and god haters in my paradise.

God claims that everyone already sees that He exists.

He also claims he loves people.

EIther way, god - who doesn't exist according to me - says he exists and that people see he exists. It's in the bible, which is the words of god, so it can't be wrong. There's not much I can say about that, can I.

Then those people haven't taken the opportunity to get to know God the Father through trusting God the Son as their Savior.

That's a very incorrect statement. There are plently of people who were devout Christians that are now atheists.

The problem is some people don't allow God to 'ever be involved in their lives'.

What about all the other people, the thousands of other people who have given god a try.

Snake

Collin wrote:

God has never made attempt to reach me, he never made an attempt to reach thousands. A different god reach out the other folks... etc.

He has, you just havent noticed. I know you dont care to hear that though.

Collin wrote:

EIther way, god - who doesn't exist according to me - says he exists and that people see he exists. It's in the bible, which is the words of god, so it can't be wrong. There's not much I can say about that, can I.

Yea the bible is wrong. It was the word of God, but its been through the "meat grinder" of human minds, and therefore been distorted.
The bible was put together by what would end up being the catholic church, which at the time was extremely corrupt. Some books were left out, it was just what they thought should be put in.

Collin wrote:

That's a very incorrect statement. There are plently of people who were devout Christians that are now atheists.

Many churches have been corrupt for many many years. They arent the whole truth, its just tradition and ceremony. So I can understand when people see it as something false.

Collin wrote:

What about all the other people, the thousands of other people who have given god a try.

Obviously I cant explain everything, and I wont try to understand everything, but God has a plan for everyone, things they go through to make them stronger. Some people dont handle it they best way, of course people have free will.


Man Ive never tried to put multiple quote bubbles in one post before. its tough

Collin

Snake wrote:

He has, you just havent noticed. I know you dont care to hear that though.

You can tell me that. I don't have a problem with that especially if we're discussing the subject. There is no god for me. If he shows himself to me, cool, I will believe. But it hasn't happened and I very much doubt that it will. Just as you probably don't think you'll suddenly find out god isn't real.

Yea the bible is wrong. It was the word of God, but its been through the "meat grinder" of human minds, and therefore been distorted.
The bible was put together by what would end up being the catholic church, which at the time was extremely corrupt. Some books were left out, it was just what they thought should be put in.

Cool, to me it's just a book. No matter what was left out.

Many churches have been corrupt for many many years. They arent the whole truth, its just tradition and ceremony. So I can understand when people see it as something false.

There are people who had the truest deepest belief in god, who still turned atheist. And it didn't have anything to do with tradition or ceremony.

Obviously I cant explain everything, and I wont try to understand everything, but God has a plan for everyone, things they go through to make them stronger. Some people dont handle it they best way, of course people have free will.

It's all good. As long as you're not hurting anyone and not forcing your opinion onto others, I don't care what you believe and if it brings you peace and happiness, great!

Man Ive never tried to put multiple quote bubbles in one post before. its tough

Yes, it takes skill

Snake

Collin wrote:

You can tell me that. I don't have a problem with that especially if we're discussing the subject. There is no god for me. If he shows himself to me, cool, I will believe. But it hasn't happened and I very much doubt that it will. Just as you probably don't think you'll suddenly find out god isn't real.

He has tried to reach you, I know for a fact. But you have to be willing to see it.

Im not going to get into the evangelical shit. Because that what most of it is, Shit.


Just figured Id tell you. Thats why im telling you.

eyedclaar

Snake wrote:

He has tried to reach you, I know for a fact. But you have to be willing to see it.

This is why I rarely bother talking religion with religious folks. What a total crock claiming you know what other people have experienced on a spiritual level as a "fact". Complete and utter bullshit.

Snake

eyedclaar wrote:

This is why I rarely bother talking religion with religious folks. What a total crock claiming you know what other people have experienced on a spiritual level as a "fact". Complete and utter bullshit.

Hey man, you can read whatever you want out of something. I dont mean it in a demeaning way. But you seem pretty bitter.
You have to understand, just as you know theres not a god, I know there is God. Your the one who chose to be offended.

eyedclaar

Snake wrote:

Hey man, you can read whatever you want out of something. I dont mean it in a demeaning way. But you seem pretty bitter.
You have to understand, just as you know theres not a god, I know there is God. Your the one who chose to be offended.

Not bitter at all. And, I never once said that I KNOW there is no god. See, that's the difference between me and a pack of loons. I don't claim to know things as a "fact" that can't possibly be known as a fact.

I invented my own religion a long time ago but unlike most "religious" people, I don't ever try to convert others. In fact, nobody is invited to join my church.

Snake

eyedclaar wrote:

Not bitter at all. And, I never once said that I KNOW there is no god. See, that's the difference between me and a pack of loons. I don't claim to know things as a "fact" that can't possibly be known as a fact.

I invented my own religion a long time ago but unlike most "religious" people, I don't ever try to convert others. In fact, nobody is invited to join my church.

Im not trying to convert anybody, it was my misunderstanding. I dont even like it when people do that evangelical crap. I dont think of my faith as religion. I dont even believe most of the things most christians do. But to me it is a fact, in a discussion like this one, one should go in understanding that some people with think theirs is a fact. Im not saying anyone else is totally wrong either. Everyone has an individual path.
And im sorry I misunderstood your post, It sounded like you were atheist, being that you said "religious folks". Again, my mistake.

Cosmo

I think the God metioned in the Bible (and other Holy Texts) is given a bum rap by the authors of those texts. They (the writers) pin human traits onto Him... making God more like Man... in order to make Man feel closer to God. I mean, the God is the Bible can be a real dick at times... like the way He fucks with Job. I don't believe that the real God is anything like that.
Also... we so often hear about God's perfection... well, if you read the text, He kinda sucks at creating things. Like, if He didn't want Adam and Eve to fuck... why did He equip them with genetalia? And beyond that... if God knows the Beginning and the End and all that is in between... when He created the Garden of Eden... why the HELL did He put the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of it? Why not plant it in Detroit? and again... fucking with people... namely, Adam. "Here... Adam... here is this tree... eat these fruit and your ass is had." Hint to God: If you don't want Adam to eat the apple... don't put the apple where Adam can get to it. It's a simple concept... sort of like the way I stash my cat's giant bag of dry food in a place where they can't get to it. Better yet... God... if toy don't want Adam to eat the apple.. simply, DO NOT CREATE THE APPLE.
I'm more apt to believe that Man created God... in order to control God or stake claims on Him. That's why you hear phrases of God being on our side during a War... God and War do not equate. I believe God is life... the life that exists everywhere in the Universe... not just on this tiny planet.
...
So, when I speak of My God... He is the God of everyone. Not someone who forces you to love Him... and punishes you if you do not. I also believe that pinning the pettiness of Man onto Him... does a great dis-service to Him. I also believe... He just wants us to be nice to each other.

Snake

Cosmo wrote:

I think the God metioned in the Bible (and other Holy Texts) is given a bum rap by the authors of those texts. They (the writers) pin human traits onto Him... making God more like Man... in order to make Man feel closer to God. I mean, the God is the Bible can be a real dick at times... like the way He fucks with Job. I don't believe that the real God is anything like that.
Also... we so often hear about God's perfection... well, if you read the text, He kinda sucks at creating things. Like, if He didn't want Adam and Eve to fuck... why did He equip them with genetalia? And beyond that... if God knows the Beginning and the End and all that is in between... when He created the Garden of Eden... why the HELL did He put the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of it? Why not plant it in Detroit? and again... fucking with people... namely, Adam. "Here... Adam... here is this tree... eat these fruit and your ass is had." Hint to God: If you don't want Adam to eat the apple... don't put the apple where Adam can get to it. It's a simple concept... sort of like the way I stash my cat's giant bag of dry food in a place where they can't get to it. Better yet... God... if toy don't want Adam to eat the apple.. simply, DO NOT CREATE THE APPLE.
I'm more apt to believe that Man created God... in order to control God or stake claims on Him. That's why you hear phrases of God being on our side during a War... God and War do not equate. I believe God is life... the life that exists everywhere in the Universe... not just on this tiny planet.
...
So, when I speak of My God... He is the God of everyone. Not someone who forces you to love Him... and punishes you if you do not. I also believe that pinning the pettiness of Man onto Him... does a great dis-service to Him. I also believe... He just wants us to be nice to each other.

Well said.

Heineken Helen

Snake wrote:

Im not trying to convert anybody, it was my misunderstanding. I dont even like it when people do that evangelical crap. I dont think of my faith as religion. I dont even believe most of the things most christians do. But to me it is a fact, in a discussion like this one, one should go in understanding that some people with think theirs is a fact. Im not saying anyone else is totally wrong either. Everyone has an individual path.
And im sorry I misunderstood your post, It sounded like you were atheist, being that you said "religious folks". Again, my mistake.

very nice post snake

mikesguitar

There are people who had the truest deepest belief in god, who still turned atheist. And it didn't have anything to do with tradition or ceremony.


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People can have a mental assessment that there is a God but lack a true conversion to Christianity. Perseverance of the saints (once saved always saved) is a clear biblical truth.

mikesguitar

Snake wrote:

Yea the bible is wrong. It was the word of God, but its been through the "meat grinder" of human minds, and therefore been distorted.
The bible was put together by what would end up being the catholic church, which at the time was extremely corrupt. Some books were left out, it was just what they thought should be put in.

Again, the manuscripts are the same as the originals. If people stay away from the catholic bible and some of the new translations of the Bible then they'll be fine. The books that were left out of the Bible were left out for many good reasons, no matter who was doing the leaving out. Anyway, the New King James version is always a safe bet.

Snake

mikesguitar wrote:

Again, the manuscripts are the same as the originals. If people stay away from the catholic bible and some of the new translations of the Bible then they'll be fine. The books that were left out of the Bible were left out for many good reasons, no matter who was doing the leaving out. Anyway, the New King James version is always a safe bet.

I have to disagree with you my friend. Now the old testament, is essentially the same as the Tanakh, which is the Hebrew bible. The new testament, if im remembering correctly, was compiled by what would become the catholic church. But the King James version was translated to english by members of the Church of England.
Im copying this part:
"The king gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy."
Honestly I wouldnt trust that its in original form. The original new testament was written in greek. Jesus spoke aramaic.
The bible isnt necessarily a book of fact, or history. Its a book of faith.

Also mind you, when I speak of the catholic church being corrupt, they used to be involved in crime. Not necessarily at that time though. But the pope used to be in with the mafia and reaped the prophets of the crime work etc. It wasnt around the same time, but I dont trust authority in that sense.

Dont let man tell you whats true about God!

Edit: I may be wrong about the history, so dont hold me as a reliable source on that

mikesguitar

I think the God metioned in the Bible (and other Holy Texts) is given a bum rap by the authors of those texts. They (the writers) pin human traits onto Him... making God more like Man... in order to make Man feel closer to God.

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Would you rather believe that God abandoned his creation without any hint of instruction or that God insured that what He wanted written was written?

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Also... we so often hear about God's perfection... well, if you read the text, He kinda sucks at creating things. Like, if He didn't want Adam and Eve to fuck... why did He equip them with genetalia?

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He wanted them to produce children. The Bible is clear about that. You probably heard the same symbolic liberal interpretation that I heard once, which doesn't make any sense at all.
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And beyond that... if God knows the Beginning and the End and all that is in between... when He created the Garden of Eden... why the HELL did He put the Tree of Knowledge in the middle of it? Why not plant it in Detroit? and again... fucking with people... namely, Adam. "Here... Adam... here is this tree... eat these fruit and your ass is had." Hint to God: If you don't want Adam to eat the apple... don't put the apple where Adam can get to it. It's a simple concept... sort of like the way I stash my cat's giant bag of dry food in a place where they can't get to it. Better yet... God... if toy don't want Adam to eat the apple.. simply, DO NOT CREATE THE APPLE.

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I think it's clear that God didn't want there to be a permanent theocracy in the world. Therefore, free choice had to be given, which required the option to disobey God. God the Father had the cross in mind from the beginning, which would replace a theocracy but still provide a way for humans to have a relationship with Him.

mikesguitar

Snake wrote:

I have to disagree with you my friend. Now the old testament, is essentially the same as the Tanakh, which is the Hebrew bible. The new testament, if im remembering correctly, was compiled by what would become the catholic church. But the King James version was translated to english by members of the Church of England.
Im copying this part:
"The king gave the translators instructions designed to guarantee that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy."!

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The content of what was compiled is what's important. The content of what was compiled was in circulation and practiced within the church centuries before the official compilation.

Give me five examples of how the new king james version "conforms to the ecclesiology and reflects the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy". For one thing, the NT teaches the individual churches to govern by means of a presbytery (opposite of Catholicism and Church of England).
.


One of the primary reasons the gospels were written in Greek was to give indication that the gospel was intended for gentiles in addition to jews. Also, much of the NT was written by paul, who was a gentile, which explains why he wrote his letters in greek.


I'm with you on not agreeing with the catholic church. But let's keep in mind that it took centuries for the catholic church to actually become the catholic church. A lot can be learned from Fox's Book of Martyrs, the Creeds from the early church, etc.

Snake

mikesguitar wrote:

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The content of what was compiled is what's important. The content of what was compiled was in circulation and practiced within the church centuries before the official compilation.

Give me five examples of how the new king james version "conforms to the ecclesiology and reflects the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its beliefs about an ordained clergy". For one thing, the NT teaches the individual churches to govern by means of a presbytery (opposite of Catholicism and Church of England).
.


One of the primary reasons the gospels were written in Greek was to give indication that the gospel was intended for gentiles in addition to jews. Also, much of the NT was written by paul, who was a gentile, which explains why he wrote his letters in greek.


I'm with you on not agreeing with the catholic church. But let's keep in mind that it took centuries for the catholic church to actually become the catholic church. A lot can be learned from Fox's Book of Martyrs, the Creeds from the early church, etc.

Ok, thats where im shaky on history. The gospels were also written in greek because that was the language of the roman empire.
But I still believe that it has been altered, obviously I cant prove it, because I dont have the original scriptures, nor would I be able to read them if I did

But thats just me.

Collin

mikesguitar wrote:

People can have a mental assessment that there is a God but lack a true conversion. Perseverance of the saints (once saved always saved) is a clear biblical truth.

What?

Anyway, we could go on for hours about this. You believe there's a god, I don't.