I understand what you are saying to an extent but I even remember Eddie railing against Clinton at one time so technically he is against himself and should not be a fan of the band:)
I consider myself a conservative and I never vote Party lines beleive it or not. I vote for who I feel is the best candidate for the job. I never go into an election booth and just click Dem or Rep down the line. I research each candidate on their own and decide that way. No person or band influences me either way. If I can't research and make up my own mind then what is the sense in voting? I might as well be a robot in the booth pulling levers. When Ed talks during shows it doesn't bother me, its his view point not mine. Are you going to tell me that you agree 100% with every artist you like?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Anyone watch The West Wing? There was that episode where the Republicans were trying to get through some bill that would discriminate against gays or something. There was a gay Republican who went along with it, his justification been that although he disagreed with this particular policy, his homosexuality didn't define his life, and it shouldn't get in the way of the fact he agreed with other aspects of Republican policy.
Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.
Anyone watch The West Wing? There was that episode where the Republicans were trying to get through some bill that would discriminate against gays or something. There was a gay Republican who went along with it, his justification been that although he disagreed with this particular policy, his homosexuality didn't define his life, and it shouldn't get in the way of the fact he agreed with other aspects of Republican policy.
Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.
Which means what? Yay for voting along party lines, instead of on the issues? Politics is swell.
I honestly don't get it. Being a liberal, I can't imagine that I could ever be a huge fan of a band that used its music and platform to promote extremly conservative ideas.
I love music for what it says, not just the guitar riff behind it. So if it said a bunch of stuff that I thought was total BS, I wouldn't be able to really love the music, and I wouldn't want to.
Additionally, I don't think being a talented musician makes up for being an offensive asshole. So I wouldn't be able to respect Ed as a person if he were espousing political philosophies or other ideas that I found offensive.
And before someone pulls out the same old tired anti-liberal line frequently used on this board, let me be clear that I love Pearl Jam in large part because of their liberal politics; I do not have liberal politics because I love Pearl Jam.
Some people like music for the music. Not the message.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I think the mark of great art is when it can transcend gender, age, religion, race, culture, etc. Granted there are a few examples of PJ, specifically Ed, being quite literal about their political leanings. But I think the catalog of their music as a whole transcends that due to the subjectivity of the music and lyrics. I might take away a different meaning from some lyrics than someone else. Or perhaps we take away the same meaning, however we disagree with how to achieve an outcome politically, thus the different political leanings. And certainly there are those hot button topics like abortion and gay marriage that folks just can't agree on. So, perhaps it is the messages and feelings that the conservatives agree with PJ in their music that attracts them and that connection is strong enough for them to 'agree to disagree' on the other stuff. Just my 2 cents.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Maybe I wasn't clear that I'm talking about conservative IDEAS and VALUES - regarding social issues, etc. - not just official politics. In my mind, many of their songs (including covers), their words outside of songs, and their actions promote their values. Here are just the first few I can think of:
No More (anti-war)
Masters of War (anti-war)
Bushleaguer (anti-conservative-President)
Porch tag (pro-choice)
Ed writing "'pro-choice on his arm & wearing the image of a coathanger on his shirt during performances of Porch (pro-choice)
Evenflow (empathy for the homeless - rather than saying they must be lazy fucks who should get a job)
Glorified G (anti-gun-culture)
WMA (anti-institutional-racism)
Rolling Stone article about Ed's experience with abortion (pro-choice)
Performing at pro-choice benefit concerts (pro-choice)
Performing at Nader rallies (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
Performing at Vote for Change shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
Saying at the LA2 solo show that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, he should get a Man of the Year award (anti-conservative-VP)
Here's to the State (anti-conservative-leaders)
Giant Obama banner at solo shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
Et cetera
Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.
But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.
This thread shows the OP's complete lack of an open-mind. Perhaps, it's conservative PJ fans, who show atleast in their taste of music, that they can interpret music as "music". And seperate politics from music. Perhaps, it's conservative fans who show they aren't predjudice.... as you, the OP, are showing you are with this thread.
I know PJ as well as anyone on here. Don't for one second patronize me with this type of crap. I'm not allowed to enjoy good music? Personally, I've always enjoyed songs that aren't direct political hits. Why? Because music is music. In my opinion, it's not meant to be divisive... but rather unifying. My PJ songs are songs like...
Alive
Black
Release
Go
Animal
Daughter
Elderly Woman
Spin the Black Circle
Cordorouy
Immortality
Better Man
Nothing Man
Hail Hail
Who You Are
IN my Tree
Present Tense
Nothing As it Seems
Light Years
I got ID
Long Road
I am Mine
Love Boat Captain
Save You
Life Wasted
Severed Hand
HArd Sun
Lots of singles there.... and there's many more.
Moreover, if you have a brain, you'd admit that Eddie Vedder did a hell of a lot more for Bush earlier in this decade than he did for any Democrat, your party. He supported Nader.... and a number of PJ fans followed suit. These are people who, quite obviously, would have voted Democrat rather than Republican. He took votes away from Dems in that train of thinking.
Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.
But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.
What's more confusing to me is the support for Kerry in 2004, and no seen support now for Obama. Anyhoo, many PJ songs mean a lot to me personally-like Alive..when in Jan 1992 my father was killed. I could go on and on, but through his songs lyrically I feel Ed knows some of the laments of growing up a gen 13/ gen x and feeling as a child less importance.moreover most of us( not that there are many born from say 64-72 or so) put our children first.
I think my views would be mystifying for many here and elsewhere-I find the polarization of the last 8 or even 16 years sad.
Recently, I think some of us who had supported moderate conservatives ahve been betrayed-an understatement sure......
I think you can listen to the music more than to the words or general intent and be a very conservative, very hard core PJ fan. Music is a uniter. One of the ultimate ones.
I honestly don't know, but I (being Dutch) also used to believe that PJ and their fans stood for a liberal, green view on the world. At MSG this year, I had a discussion with one fan who was actually afraid of the kind of terrorism that *could* happen if Obama were to win, and this being the primary reason to vote for McCain.
That put me off, and I now understand that our "Europolitical views" do not apply to you ...
In general, however, my view of the US has changed so much since Obama is running for the presidency. I really feel your country is reaching out again to the world. That actually makes me want to come over more often to the US. People around me actually think I turned 180 degrees, since during the W.-era I was not really a US-"fan".
I know Obama is not representing "socialism" or other "left" politics : some of his ideas tend to be on the European "right" agenda. But I do think that is nothing compared to the "McCain right".
I do feel that he would be *your* president, and *your* issues need to be solved - and him being the better choice of the two, with a real chance of winning this election, makes him my favorable choice.
I hope you guys make the right choice
Sander
Wrigley 1 + 2 '16, Amsterdam '14, (Wrigley '13), Amsterdam '12, PJ20 Alpine '11, Chi '09, DC, June '08, MSG#1, June '08, Nijmegen, The Netherlands '07, Arnhem, The Netherlands '06
We can thank Andrew Jackson for the two party system.
We've had a "two party system" since nearly day one.
The second US election pitted a Federalist (John Adams) against a Democratic Republican (Thomas Jefferson).
Of course when Hamilton shot the Federalist party in the foot with his impertinent antics, it took a while for a new party to gather momentum, so the Democratic-Republicans sort of ran away with the country for 4 terms.
You could also thank Andrew Jackson (who by no means was a perfect man) for overthrowing the 2nd Bank of The United States and for giving many a grave warning about the dangers of central banking in America.
He was also the first and ONLY president to get rid of the goddamn federal debt.
Jackson had some serious fucking balls, and i wish to god we could have a candidate remotely of his caliber and moral fiber these days.
He stood up for what he knew to be right, just, and in the best interest of his country and people, and he declared his enemies to be not just wrong, but to be evil, corrupt, and full of malicious intent.
Thats the kind of politics we need to revive in America.
Fuck this, "yeah you and I have completely different views, but i still like you" charade. Sometimes people are just flat wrong, flat out dishonest, and they need to be flat out exposed for what they are.
Our government is founded upon the intelligence of the people. I for one do not despair of the republic. I have great confidence in the virtue of the great majority of the people, and I cannot fear the result.
The bold effort the present bank had made to control the Government, the distress it had wantonly produced ... are but premonitions of the fate that awaits the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution, or the establishment of another like it.
you will yet find there is a constant effort to induce the General Government to go beyond the limits of its taxing power and to impose unnecessary burdens upon the people. Many powerful interests are continually at work to procure heavy duties on commerce and to swell the revenue beyond the real necessities of the public service, and the country has already felt the injurious effects of their combined influence.
The paper-money system and its natural associations--monopoly and exclusive privileges--have already struck their roots too deep in the soil, and it will require all your efforts to check its further growth and to eradicate the evil. The men who profit by the abuses and desire to perpetuate them will continue to besiege the halls of legislation in the General Government as well as in the States, and will seek by every artifice to mislead and deceive the public servants. It is to yourselves that you must look for safety and the means of guarding and perpetuating your free institutions. In your hands is rightfully placed the sovereignty of the country, and to you everyone placed in authority is ultimately responsible.
Recent events have proved that the paper-money system of this country may be used as an engine to undermine your free institutions, and that those who desire to engross all power in the hands of the few and to govern by corruption or force are aware of its power and prepared to employ it. Your banks now furnish your only circulating medium, and money is plenty or scarce according to the quantity of notes issued by them.
Mischief springs from the power which the moneyed interest derives from a paper currency which they are able to control, from the multitude of corporations with exclusive privileges... which are employed altogether for their benefit.
Unless you become more watchful in your states and check the spirit of monopoly and thirst for exclusive privileges you will in the end find that... the control over your dearest interests has passed into the hands of these corporations.
It goes on and on with Jackson.
The man is a treasure trove of wisdom.
If I was to smile and I held out my hand
If I opened it now would you not understand?
when i was 15 i heard ten and i thought it was the best music i had ever heard. i obviously wasnt old enough to vote then, so i never even thought about the political views of the band. this is the land of the free, and i always hold peoples opinons in a high regard, with as much respect as i would like to receive as well.
for the record i have voted for the red, blue and green before.
1996 - Columbia Maryland, Hartford
1998 - DC RFK Stadium, Virginia Beach, Columbia Maryland, DC Constitution Hall
2000 - Virginia Beach, Camden I+II, Columbia Maryland
2002 - Seattle Key Arena I+II
2003 - Raleigh, Charlotte, State College, Bristow, Camden II
2004 - Asheville
2006 - Boston II, Camden I+II, DC
2008 - Virginia Beach, Camden I+II, DC
2009 - Philadelphia I, II, III, IV
2010 - Bristow
2013 - Philadelphia II, Baltimore, Charlottesville, Charlotte
I think if your conservative and didn't listen or watch movies because they were associated with liberals your entertainment choices would be limited, after all probably 90 percent of hollywood is democratic and probably the same for musicians. Personally I don't get why people give a rats ass who a celebrity votes or tells them to vote for. Myself I vote for who I believe might make my life better, but I never have high expectations that any politician or government pinhead will improve my life all that much.
Okay, some of you people are really not understanding me at all. I'm not saying I wouldn't watch a movie because it had a producer who voted for someone other than the candidate I support. I'm saying that, for instance, I don't enjoy movies that glorify violence and degrade women.
I never, ever said I give a rats ass who a celebrity votes for.
Geez Louise! Why is this concept proving so hard for people to understand? (Now you're gonna say I think everyone on this board should vote for Louise. :rolleyes: )
First of all, you've only named about 4 actual PJ songs there (discounting tags and covers). Their catalog is much more extensive than that.
No shit. I said I was talking about much more than just PJ lyrics and also that these were just the first few things I could think of off the top of my head.
Secondly and more importantly, their lyrics really aren't that specific. Those songs can really mean a wide range of things to different people. For example, I have never once thought that EvenFlow was anything even remotely political.
My God, people! Can you not read? I've said NUMEROUS times, including in the post you just quoted, that I'm not really talking so much about politics. And your response is to argue that Evenflow isn't political? I didn't say it was political and I didn't say I care!
My questiton with Evenflow is: For those people on this board who argue so strongly that homeless people are lazy and undeserving of compassion, how do you enjoy singing along to this song?
As far as speeches, statements, banners, etc., they just do not make up that big a part of the concerts or the experience of their music for me. I went to one of the VFC shows and Eddie gave a little 2-3 minute speech which really wasn't Pro-Democratic at all. The message was to vote and to vote with your head.
I disagree, but at least this is starting to get a bit closer to addressing my actual question.
Maybe us conservative fans aren't as intolerant as you like to portray us. Would the liberal fans sit through some of those statements and be as accepting of others' opinions in a public demonstration?
Why are you getting so defensive? It was a simple question. I never said conservatives are intolerant.
And if you're asking whether I would be accepting of some, for instance, violent, misogynist rant at a concert, the answer is that I probably wouldn't be at that concert. That's my fucking point.
And if you're asking whether I would be accepting of some, for instance, violent, misogynist rant at a concert, the answer is that I probably wouldn't be at that concert.
That's a pretty strong generalization for all conservative statements.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
I understand what you are saying to an extent but I even remember Eddie railing against Clinton at one time so technically he is against himself and should not be a fan of the band:)
I consider myself a conservative and I never vote Party lines beleive it or not. I vote for who I feel is the best candidate for the job. I never go into an election booth and just click Dem or Rep down the line. I research each candidate on their own and decide that way. No person or band influences me either way. If I can't research and make up my own mind then what is the sense in voting? I might as well be a robot in the booth pulling levers. When Ed talks during shows it doesn't bother me, its his view point not mine. Are you going to tell me that you agree 100% with every artist you like?
I'm not saying you can't be a fan of the band unless you're a Democrat who votes straight party line. I'm not even a Democrat. I certainly don't vote party line. I don't take my political cues from Eddie Vedder. And, no, I don't agree 100% with every artist I like. I don't usually even know where they stand on politics.
This is totally not what I'm talking about, but thanks anyway for trying to understand. (That's not sarcasm.)
Okay, some of you people are really not understanding me at all. I'm not saying I wouldn't watch a movie because it had a producer who voted for someone other than the candidate I support. I'm saying that, for instance, I don't enjoy movies that glorify violence and degrade women.
I see your point here, but I think what is going on is that the themes Pearl Jam writes about in their songs are ones that are not necessarily offensive to those of the conservative stripe. For example, you and I both mentioned Even Flow and W.M.A. before, which deal with the plight of homelessness and institutional racism, respectively. Now, although (from the viewpoint of some) conservatives may support policies that impact the homeless population negatively and strengthen institutional racism, I don't think you'll see many people who would be offended by a sympathetic look at the plight of the homeless or an analysis of race in the United States. There would be people who would be offended, but I don't think these views are quite as radical as songs that would glorify violence or degrade women (although I'm sure many liberals listen to alot of mainstream hip-hop which does both). I just don't think they go as far as to make it exclusionary to segments of the population.
I suppose if you're an extreme extreme social conservative you may find PJ's relatively mainstream points offensive, but A) I don't know many PJ fans quite THAT far to the right, and in this case, I think the power and strength of the music and vocals, and the poetics of the lyrics overwhelms the message of the lyrics.
I mean, people still watch and appreciate Birth of a Nation, and that's certainly an "offensive" film. And Pearl Jam is not nearly that extreme.
What is with this whole liberal/conservative thing? Am I missing something? Are there only two possibly ideologies out there?
What a terrible mindset.
It's a vague generalization for the sake of being able to refernce a concept in a short thread title. I'm starting to regret having used it, but we can't all be poets. Please enlighten me as to how you would have phrased it.
Anyone watch The West Wing? There was that episode where the Republicans were trying to get through some bill that would discriminate against gays or something. There was a gay Republican who went along with it, his justification been that although he disagreed with this particular policy, his homosexuality didn't define his life, and it shouldn't get in the way of the fact he agreed with other aspects of Republican policy.
Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.
Although I'm not really trying to talk about politics, this relates more to my point than anything else that's been said so far. (I've only read up to your post so far. )
Maybe a better way to phrase my question is: How can people support and enjoy in reality something they're adamantly against ideologically, unless they think it's a necessary evil?
I think the mark of great art is when it can transcend gender, age, religion, race, culture, etc. Granted there are a few examples of PJ, specifically Ed, being quite literal about their political leanings. But I think the catalog of their music as a whole transcends that due to the subjectivity of the music and lyrics. I might take away a different meaning from some lyrics than someone else. Or perhaps we take away the same meaning, however we disagree with how to achieve an outcome politically, thus the different political leanings. And certainly there are those hot button topics like abortion and gay marriage that folks just can't agree on. So, perhaps it is the messages and feelings that the conservatives agree with PJ in their music that attracts them and that connection is strong enough for them to 'agree to disagree' on the other stuff. Just my 2 cents.
Thank you.
So, for those songs with which people totally disagree, do you think they still enjoy them, sing along, keep them on their iPods?
And, if they knew for sure that PJ proceeds would be donated to pro-choice organizations, do you think staunchly "pro-life" fans would stop giving PJ their money?
Or, let's say Dick Cheney's a Pearl Jam fan. (Why wouldn't he be, right? They make great music and ideology is irrelevant.) Do you think he would continue to be a fan after going to Eddie's LA2 solo show and hearing him say that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, the doc should get the Man of the Year award?
Well, I think if, for example, someone brought up the pro-life argument in song, advocating it in a powerful, poetic and reasonable way, I would be able and willing to listen to, enjoy and support the music, especially if the music and vocals were as powerful as PJ's music and vocals are. By that token, we would never be able to listen and respect someone else's position in debating anything at all. I think you see these songs less often because from my experience conservatives don't seem to be driven to professionally making a career as often as liberals, but I'd love to see an Eddie Vedder, for example, of the conservative movement who could bring out the poetry in an alternate way of life. Again, I also think the amount of people who would be offended by the majority of topics in PJ's songs are pretty slim. Their positions in the songs they write (if not their statements), for the most part are pretty mainstream. They're far more mainstream that the 'conservative' examples you gave of violence towards women, etc.
Additionally, I think alot of the politics in Pearl Jam's songs stem from the context that we, as crazy fans, have. Take Whipping, for example, which is Eddie's examination of the pro-choice movement. Now, if you take the song at its' word, (i.e. the lyrics, music and vocals), that specific meaning is not necessarily clear. Only with the context of the liner notes and the interviews Eddie has given about the song does it become clear that the song is indeed about pro-choice. There are many fans of PJ (in fact, I'd say the overwhelming majority of fans) that are not quite that hardcore. They listen to the music and the lyrics, but don't pore over the liner notes, looking for every nugget and do not look up the many interviews Eddie has given over the years. What I mean to say is that the people on this board probably have alot more information about the political impetus behind songs than the average fan.
Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.
I like your analogy about your father. I like my father too, and he espouses far different views than I do. So when he forwards me an email promoting these views, I don't enjoy it, save it, or pass it on as I would a PJ song.
I know that much of what I wrote has nothing to do with the music itself. But I think that stuff counts, particularly when it comes to how strongly we fans support the band. I could see liking some songs by a band that promotes ideology that's totally contrary to your values, and maybe even buying an album or two. But I wouldn't buy all the albums, join the fan club, collect the posters, follow them around the country, promote them to all my friends, or get a tatoo of a such a band.
But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.
Regarding Evenflow and WMA, I don't think MOST PJ fans (or even most conservative fans) disagree with these songs. But I'm talking about the people who do. Maybe they don't think they do or they've never thought about it or whatever. But I have definitely read comments on this board that we shouldn't have compassion for the homeless, or that institutional racism doesn't exist. So I want to know how those people feel about these songs. Do you burn copies of WMA for all your friends, tell them what a great song it is, sing along, etc. even though you don't believe institutional racism exists and think those who think it does are idiots?
Comments
I consider myself a conservative and I never vote Party lines beleive it or not. I vote for who I feel is the best candidate for the job. I never go into an election booth and just click Dem or Rep down the line. I research each candidate on their own and decide that way. No person or band influences me either way. If I can't research and make up my own mind then what is the sense in voting? I might as well be a robot in the booth pulling levers. When Ed talks during shows it doesn't bother me, its his view point not mine. Are you going to tell me that you agree 100% with every artist you like?
www.seanbrady.net
What a terrible mindset.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.
Which means what? Yay for voting along party lines, instead of on the issues? Politics is swell.
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/" title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg" width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
Some people like music for the music. Not the message.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.
But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.
I know PJ as well as anyone on here. Don't for one second patronize me with this type of crap. I'm not allowed to enjoy good music? Personally, I've always enjoyed songs that aren't direct political hits. Why? Because music is music. In my opinion, it's not meant to be divisive... but rather unifying. My PJ songs are songs like...
Alive
Black
Release
Go
Animal
Daughter
Elderly Woman
Spin the Black Circle
Cordorouy
Immortality
Better Man
Nothing Man
Hail Hail
Who You Are
IN my Tree
Present Tense
Nothing As it Seems
Light Years
I got ID
Long Road
I am Mine
Love Boat Captain
Save You
Life Wasted
Severed Hand
HArd Sun
Lots of singles there.... and there's many more.
Moreover, if you have a brain, you'd admit that Eddie Vedder did a hell of a lot more for Bush earlier in this decade than he did for any Democrat, your party. He supported Nader.... and a number of PJ fans followed suit. These are people who, quite obviously, would have voted Democrat rather than Republican. He took votes away from Dems in that train of thinking.
well put.
I think my views would be mystifying for many here and elsewhere-I find the polarization of the last 8 or even 16 years sad.
Recently, I think some of us who had supported moderate conservatives ahve been betrayed-an understatement sure......
We can thank Andrew Jackson for the two party system.
That put me off, and I now understand that our "Europolitical views" do not apply to you ...
In general, however, my view of the US has changed so much since Obama is running for the presidency. I really feel your country is reaching out again to the world. That actually makes me want to come over more often to the US. People around me actually think I turned 180 degrees, since during the W.-era I was not really a US-"fan".
I know Obama is not representing "socialism" or other "left" politics : some of his ideas tend to be on the European "right" agenda. But I do think that is nothing compared to the "McCain right".
I do feel that he would be *your* president, and *your* issues need to be solved - and him being the better choice of the two, with a real chance of winning this election, makes him my favorable choice.
I hope you guys make the right choice
Sander
We've had a "two party system" since nearly day one.
The second US election pitted a Federalist (John Adams) against a Democratic Republican (Thomas Jefferson).
Of course when Hamilton shot the Federalist party in the foot with his impertinent antics, it took a while for a new party to gather momentum, so the Democratic-Republicans sort of ran away with the country for 4 terms.
You could also thank Andrew Jackson (who by no means was a perfect man) for overthrowing the 2nd Bank of The United States and for giving many a grave warning about the dangers of central banking in America.
He was also the first and ONLY president to get rid of the goddamn federal debt.
Jackson had some serious fucking balls, and i wish to god we could have a candidate remotely of his caliber and moral fiber these days.
He stood up for what he knew to be right, just, and in the best interest of his country and people, and he declared his enemies to be not just wrong, but to be evil, corrupt, and full of malicious intent.
Thats the kind of politics we need to revive in America.
Fuck this, "yeah you and I have completely different views, but i still like you" charade. Sometimes people are just flat wrong, flat out dishonest, and they need to be flat out exposed for what they are.
I HOPE HE WAS RIGHT:
And the brutal honesty I love:
It goes on and on with Jackson.
The man is a treasure trove of wisdom.
If I opened it now would you not understand?
for the record i have voted for the red, blue and green before.
1998 - DC RFK Stadium, Virginia Beach, Columbia Maryland, DC Constitution Hall
2002 - Seattle Key Arena I+II
2003 - Raleigh, Charlotte, State College, Bristow, Camden II
2004 - Asheville
2006 - Boston II, Camden I+II, DC
2008 - Virginia Beach, Camden I+II, DC
2009 - Philadelphia I, II, III, IV
2010 - Bristow
2013 - Philadelphia II, Baltimore, Charlottesville, Charlotte
2022 - Camden
Okay, some of you people are really not understanding me at all. I'm not saying I wouldn't watch a movie because it had a producer who voted for someone other than the candidate I support. I'm saying that, for instance, I don't enjoy movies that glorify violence and degrade women.
I never, ever said I give a rats ass who a celebrity votes for.
Geez Louise! Why is this concept proving so hard for people to understand? (Now you're gonna say I think everyone on this board should vote for Louise. :rolleyes: )
No shit. I said I was talking about much more than just PJ lyrics and also that these were just the first few things I could think of off the top of my head.
My God, people! Can you not read? I've said NUMEROUS times, including in the post you just quoted, that I'm not really talking so much about politics. And your response is to argue that Evenflow isn't political? I didn't say it was political and I didn't say I care!
My questiton with Evenflow is: For those people on this board who argue so strongly that homeless people are lazy and undeserving of compassion, how do you enjoy singing along to this song?
I disagree, but at least this is starting to get a bit closer to addressing my actual question.
Why are you getting so defensive? It was a simple question. I never said conservatives are intolerant.
And if you're asking whether I would be accepting of some, for instance, violent, misogynist rant at a concert, the answer is that I probably wouldn't be at that concert. That's my fucking point.
That's a pretty strong generalization for all conservative statements.
I'm not saying you can't be a fan of the band unless you're a Democrat who votes straight party line. I'm not even a Democrat. I certainly don't vote party line. I don't take my political cues from Eddie Vedder. And, no, I don't agree 100% with every artist I like. I don't usually even know where they stand on politics.
This is totally not what I'm talking about, but thanks anyway for trying to understand. (That's not sarcasm.)
I see your point here, but I think what is going on is that the themes Pearl Jam writes about in their songs are ones that are not necessarily offensive to those of the conservative stripe. For example, you and I both mentioned Even Flow and W.M.A. before, which deal with the plight of homelessness and institutional racism, respectively. Now, although (from the viewpoint of some) conservatives may support policies that impact the homeless population negatively and strengthen institutional racism, I don't think you'll see many people who would be offended by a sympathetic look at the plight of the homeless or an analysis of race in the United States. There would be people who would be offended, but I don't think these views are quite as radical as songs that would glorify violence or degrade women (although I'm sure many liberals listen to alot of mainstream hip-hop which does both). I just don't think they go as far as to make it exclusionary to segments of the population.
I suppose if you're an extreme extreme social conservative you may find PJ's relatively mainstream points offensive, but A) I don't know many PJ fans quite THAT far to the right, and
I mean, people still watch and appreciate Birth of a Nation, and that's certainly an "offensive" film. And Pearl Jam is not nearly that extreme.
It's a vague generalization for the sake of being able to refernce a concept in a short thread title. I'm starting to regret having used it, but we can't all be poets. Please enlighten me as to how you would have phrased it.
Although I'm not really trying to talk about politics, this relates more to my point than anything else that's been said so far. (I've only read up to your post so far.
Maybe a better way to phrase my question is: How can people support and enjoy in reality something they're adamantly against ideologically, unless they think it's a necessary evil?
Thank you.
So, for those songs with which people totally disagree, do you think they still enjoy them, sing along, keep them on their iPods?
And, if they knew for sure that PJ proceeds would be donated to pro-choice organizations, do you think staunchly "pro-life" fans would stop giving PJ their money?
Or, let's say Dick Cheney's a Pearl Jam fan. (Why wouldn't he be, right? They make great music and ideology is irrelevant.) Do you think he would continue to be a fan after going to Eddie's LA2 solo show and hearing him say that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, the doc should get the Man of the Year award?
I like your analogy about your father. I like my father too, and he espouses far different views than I do. So when he forwards me an email promoting these views, I don't enjoy it, save it, or pass it on as I would a PJ song.
I know that much of what I wrote has nothing to do with the music itself. But I think that stuff counts, particularly when it comes to how strongly we fans support the band. I could see liking some songs by a band that promotes ideology that's totally contrary to your values, and maybe even buying an album or two. But I wouldn't buy all the albums, join the fan club, collect the posters, follow them around the country, promote them to all my friends, or get a tatoo of a such a band.
Regarding Evenflow and WMA, I don't think MOST PJ fans (or even most conservative fans) disagree with these songs. But I'm talking about the people who do. Maybe they don't think they do or they've never thought about it or whatever. But I have definitely read comments on this board that we shouldn't have compassion for the homeless, or that institutional racism doesn't exist. So I want to know how those people feel about these songs. Do you burn copies of WMA for all your friends, tell them what a great song it is, sing along, etc. even though you don't believe institutional racism exists and think those who think it does are idiots?