present five songs that specifically fall against the "conservative" agenda outside of Bushleager...
...and I'll give you a "conservative" response...
I think this whole thread is ridiculous. But, I figure you need to learn that...
1. Conservatives want homeless to not be homeless
2. Conservatives do NOT want war, but think a strong military prevents war (ie Cold War)
3. Conservatives value LIFE and each individual should not have that right taken away.
We simply disagree on the way to get there. I'd be willing to bet that Eddie, given the fact that he was so good of friends with Johnny Ramone, would prefer to talk politics with an open-minded conservative (ie Jonny Ramone or even Neil Young) than a close-minded liberal (someone who thinks all PJ fans should be liberal).
I think maybe the question isn't necessarily a split between liberal and conservative, but more of those listeners who may have an ideological problem with the songs; not necessarily those who are conservatives, but those who DO think the homeless are lazy (Even Flow), or DON'T think racism exists in America, and so on and so forth. I think that's a different question, and not one that falls along party lines. In those cases, I think the power of the music and vocals and the poetry of the lyrics overwhelms any concern about the offensiveness of the lyrics. But, to be honest, I haven't found many people in PJ crowds that are THAT ignorant that they would be offended by mainstream notions as sympathy towards the homeless, etc. I really think that's a question between ignorance and non-ignorance, not conservative and liberal. So maybe it was the wrong words to use.
I think maybe the question isn't necessarily a split between liberal and conservative, but more of those listeners who may have an ideological problem with the songs; not necessarily those who are conservatives, but those who DO think the homeless are lazy (Even Flow), or DON'T think racism exists in America, and so on and so forth. I think that's a different question, and not one that falls along party lines. In those cases, I think the power of the music and vocals and the poetry of the lyrics overwhelms any concern about the offensiveness of the lyrics. But, to be honest, I haven't found many people in PJ crowds that are THAT ignorant that they would be offended by mainstream notions as sympathy towards the homeless, etc. I really think that's a question between ignorance and non-ignorance, not conservative and liberal. So maybe it was the wrong words to use.
Why nice try? Neil Young was a huge Reagan supporter and Johnny was a Republican.
I don't know anyone who does not sympathize with homeless. THinking government is the answer is different than thinking private charities are the answer. Thinking government is the answer instead of increasing jobs via economic growth.... Bottom line.... we simply disagree on the way to get there. Some think gov't solves the issue.... others think private sector can. Accept that, and we are good.
Perhaps, it's conservative PJ fans, who show atleast in their taste of music, that they can interpret music as "music". And seperate politics from music. Perhaps, it's conservative fans who show they aren't predjudice.... as you, the OP, are showing you are with this thread.
How am I showing that I'm prejudice? That doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate.
And how many times do I have to say I'm not talking about politics??
I know PJ as well as anyone on here. Don't for one second patronize me with this type of crap.
I asked a simple question. I didn't pass any judgement, I just asked people to explain their positions to me (which you have not done). How exactly is it patronizing, prejudiced, or close-minded to say, "I'd like to understand where you're coming from. Please explain to me your perspective."?
I'm not allowed to enjoy good music? Personally, I've always enjoyed songs that aren't direct political hits. Why? Because music is music. In my opinion, it's not meant to be divisive... but rather unifying. My PJ songs are songs like...
Alive
Black
Release
Go
Animal
Daughter
Elderly Woman
Spin the Black Circle
Cordorouy
Immortality
Better Man
Nothing Man
Hail Hail
Who You Are
IN my Tree
Present Tense
Nothing As it Seems
Light Years
I got ID
Long Road
I am Mine
Love Boat Captain
Save You
Life Wasted
Severed Hand
HArd Sun
Lots of singles there.... and there's many more.
Please quote when I said that you're not allowed to enjoy good music, or even that you SHOULDN'T like Pearl Jam.
Moreover, if you have a brain, you'd admit that Eddie Vedder did a hell of a lot more for Bush earlier in this decade than he did for any Democrat, your party. He supported Nader.... and a number of PJ fans followed suit. These are people who, quite obviously, would have voted Democrat rather than Republican. He took votes away from Dems in that train of thinking.
If I have a brian? Is it really necessary for you to be such an asshole all the time? Seriously - is it?
You have clearly not understood any part of my OP, however, and know next to nothing about me.
I am NOT a Democrat. They are not "my" party.
I am not defending Democrats. I am not saying Eddie Vedder is a Democrat or has to support Democrats. I am not saying his fans have to support Democrats or that Republicans can't like good music. I don't give a rat's ass who Eddie Vedder supported in 2000. You'll note that I did not use the words Democrat or Republican anywhere in my original post.
Please don't get back to me until you understand the topic and can stop being an asshole.
Why nice try? Neil Young was a huge Reagan supporter and Johnny was a Republican.
I don't know anyone who does not sympathize with homeless. THinking government is the answer is different than thinking private charities are the answer. Thinking government is the answer instead of increasing jobs via economic growth.... Bottom line.... we simply disagree on the way to get there. Some think gov't solves the issue.... others think private sector can. Accept that, and we are good.
Neil Young flirted with Reagan-era conservatism for one album (the second side of Hawks and Doves). He mentioned in an interview once or twice in the early 80s things that were close to supporting Reagan. It disappeared pretty fast, and it's a far cry from Neil Young being a "conservative"...a kinder, gentler machine gun hand? He's not far, far left, but I think it's stretching it quite far to call him a conservative. Johnny Ramone was certainly a Republican however.
Well, I know plenty of people who do not sympathize with the homeless. I don't view that viewpoint through a partisan lens, however.
I see your point here, but I think what is going on is that the themes Pearl Jam writes about in their songs are ones that are not necessarily offensive to those of the conservative stripe. For example, you and I both mentioned Even Flow and W.M.A. before, which deal with the plight of homelessness and institutional racism, respectively. Now, although (from the viewpoint of some) conservatives may support policies that impact the homeless population negatively and strengthen institutional racism, I don't think you'll see many people who would be offended by a sympathetic look at the plight of the homeless or an analysis of race in the United States. There would be people who would be offended, but I don't think these views are quite as radical as songs that would glorify violence or degrade women (although I'm sure many liberals listen to alot of mainstream hip-hop which does both). I just don't think they go as far as to make it exclusionary to segments of the population.
I suppose if you're an extreme extreme social conservative you may find PJ's relatively mainstream points offensive, but A) I don't know many PJ fans quite THAT far to the right, and in this case, I think the power and strength of the music and vocals, and the poetics of the lyrics overwhelms the message of the lyrics.
I mean, people still watch and appreciate Birth of a Nation, and that's certainly an "offensive" film. And Pearl Jam is not nearly that extreme.
Thank you for being the first person to actually answer my question.
I think you have a good point, particularly regarding what I bolded. My curiosity arose from reading some of the things people post on here (which I, perhaps mistakenly, labeled conservative simply for lack of a better word). Some people post some ideas/values on here I that I completely disagree with, am offended by, or find assinine. These values generally seem in opposition to the values promoted by Pearl Jam.
My thinking was that since there's no way in hell I could support a band that espouses the values of these posters, and PJ values seem to be the opposite, I don't understand how these posters can support PJ.
But perhaps opposite values are not equally offensive to both parties. For example, while anti-woman ideals are offensive to feminists, perhaps pro-woman ideals aren't necessarily equally offensive to misogynists.
Although, as strongly as some people feel about abortion around here, I would be surprised if no one was offended by Pearl Jam's pro-choice message. Also, I know some people are offended by some of what Eddie says. I'm not sure if they just choose to overlook it or what. I know at least some people know what I'm talking about, considering that there was a thread on the Porch yesterday where a guy said he was going to stop being a PJ fan because, as a conservative, he disagreed with much of what they stand for. So at least I'm sure I'm not totally crazy to consider this possibility.
In an attempt to answer the question that I think the OP was asking, I love PJ and think primarily about the music when I say that. However, one of the reasons that the band has a special place in my heart is BECAUSE of their principles and values. Of course, I'm talking about Eddie mainly because he is the most vocal about those opinions. Leaving current politics aside (I'm not American, and won't be voting ), I'm thinking mainly of their stance on issues such the pro-choice argument, climate change and other things like this.
Although I could never say that I'd dislike a bands music because I disliked their views and opinions, I doubt that I'd be half as obsessive over them.
It's because I think that this band feel how I feel about certain issues that I'm able to get so much, not just from the music, but from my association with them and what they stand for.
Well, I think if, for example, someone brought up the pro-life argument in song, advocating it in a powerful, poetic and reasonable way, I would be able and willing to listen to, enjoy and support the music, especially if the music and vocals were as powerful as PJ's music and vocals are. By that token, we would never be able to listen and respect someone else's position in debating anything at all.
I would be able to listen to and maybe even enjoy a well-written, respectful, pro-life song. But I wouldn't cite that band as my FAVORITE band. I also wouldn't buy their albums or pay for their concerts (and certianly wouldn't spend thousands of dollars supporting them) if I had good reason to believe that my money would be used to further the "pro-life" cause. And I don't see any difference between this and refusing to spend money at any other business that donates to such causes, regardless of how good their product is.
I don't think, however, that just because a pro-life song could never be as meaningful to me as a pro-choice one, that means I'm not able to listen to and respect someone else's position in debating the issue.
I think you see these songs less often because from my experience conservatives don't seem to be driven to professionally making a career as often as liberals, but I'd love to see an Eddie Vedder, for example, of the conservative movement who could bring out the poetry in an alternate way of life. Again, I also think the amount of people who would be offended by the majority of topics in PJ's songs are pretty slim. Their positions in the songs they write (if not their statements), for the most part are pretty mainstream. They're far more mainstream that the 'conservative' examples you gave of violence towards women, etc.
I think there are some country musicians who musically promote conservative ideals (even some registered Democrats).
present five songs that specifically fall against the "conservative" agenda outside of Bushleager...
...and I'll give you a "conservative" response...
I think this whole thread is ridiculous. But, I figure you need to learn that...
1. Conservatives want homeless to not be homeless
2. Conservatives do NOT want war, but think a strong military prevents war (ie Cold War)
3. Conservatives value LIFE and each individual should not have that right taken away.
We simply disagree on the way to get there. I'd be willing to bet that Eddie, given the fact that he was so good of friends with Johnny Ramone, would prefer to talk politics with an open-minded conservative (ie Jonny Ramone or even Neil Young) than a close-minded liberal (someone who thinks all PJ fans should be liberal).
Once again, you're getting defensive even though you haven't the slightest idea what I'm talking about. This post is not relevant to my thread.
I think maybe the question isn't necessarily a split between liberal and conservative, but more of those listeners who may have an ideological problem with the songs; not necessarily those who are conservatives, but those who DO think the homeless are lazy (Even Flow), or DON'T think racism exists in America, and so on and so forth. I think that's a different question, and not one that falls along party lines. In those cases, I think the power of the music and vocals and the poetry of the lyrics overwhelms any concern about the offensiveness of the lyrics. But, to be honest, I haven't found many people in PJ crowds that are THAT ignorant that they would be offended by mainstream notions as sympathy towards the homeless, etc. I really think that's a question between ignorance and non-ignorance, not conservative and liberal. So maybe it was the wrong words to use.
Once again, thank you for having some understanding of what I'm talking about.
These threads are always so stupid. I bought 10 when I was 12 years old. Politics weren't really on my mind. Now being a little older and a voting conservative I could care less what Eddie Vedder's politics are. If money was never a worry for me for the rest of my life, then maybe I'd be more likely to vote for politicians to take a bigger piece of what I've earned.
Why nice try? Neil Young was a huge Reagan supporter and Johnny was a Republican.
I don't know anyone who does not sympathize with homeless. THinking government is the answer is different than thinking private charities are the answer. Thinking government is the answer instead of increasing jobs via economic growth.... Bottom line.... we simply disagree on the way to get there. Some think gov't solves the issue.... others think private sector can. Accept that, and we are good.
Regardless of what would solve homelessness, some people say that if someone is homeless it's their own damn fault, that they're lazy, that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, etc. They say, "If I could 'succeed' there's no reason why these people can't, so if they don't then they must not deserve to." Some people are oblivious to the hardships others face. Some people think everyone else gets what they deserve. This is my idea of not sympathizing with the homeless.
And I assume the "nice try" comment was referring to the fact that the political affiliations of Neil Young and Johnny Ramone are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
In an attempt to answer the question that I think the OP was asking, I love PJ and think primarily about the music when I say that. However, one of the reasons that the band has a special place in my heart is BECAUSE of their principles and values. Of course, I'm talking about Eddie mainly because he is the most vocal about those opinions. Leaving current politics aside (I'm not American, and won't be voting ), I'm thinking mainly of their stance on issues such the pro-choice argument, climate change and other things like this.
Although I could never say that I'd dislike a bands music because I disliked their views and opinions, I doubt that I'd be half as obsessive over them.
It's because I think that this band feel how I feel about certain issues that I'm able to get so much, not just from the music, but from my association with them and what they stand for.
So, for those songs with which people totally disagree, do you think they still enjoy them, sing along, keep them on their iPods?
And, if they knew for sure that PJ proceeds would be donated to pro-choice organizations, do you think staunchly "pro-life" fans would stop giving PJ their money?
Or, let's say Dick Cheney's a Pearl Jam fan. (Why wouldn't he be, right? They make great music and ideology is irrelevant.) Do you think he would continue to be a fan after going to Eddie's LA2 solo show and hearing him say that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, the doc should get the Man of the Year award?
Your first question is a bit complicated (at least for me) because I think it would depend on the subject matter and tact of the lyrics. Personally, I think a good work of art, in whatever form, is presented in a way that can make someone look at an issue in another light and maybe reconsider their original position on the matter. If the lyrics do not present an issue in a different perspective, but instead, insults folks for having another position, then no, I don't think they would enjoy the song.
As far as the staunchly pro-life person, it would be my guess that they would not want any money of theirs going to pro-choice causes, via Cd purchase or otherwise. That question would best be answered by someone who is, indeed, staunchly pro-life. I'm just wagering a guess here.
As far as the Dick Cheney fan question, I think Ed's comment might be a deal breaker as far as Cheney remaining a fan. Again, it is a personal attack and not just presenting an issue in a different light.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
How am I showing that I'm prejudice? That doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate..
You are showing your prejudice through your lack of sensativity for those who are different from you. You, as a liberal, don't understand how we could appreciate pearl jam? Well, can you as a liberal, explain the connection between any liberal and conservative? Do you think that there are issues our there that both liberals and conservatives can agree on? Do you always look at every issue as "conservative" or "liberal"? Do you look at everything, including music and entertainment throught a political perspective? Do you think politics all the time? If so, I feel sorry for you.
I asked a simple question. I didn't pass any judgement, I just asked people to explain their positions to me (which you have not done). How exactly is it patronizing, prejudiced, or close-minded to say, "I'd like to understand where you're coming from. Please explain to me your perspective."?.
First, we don't have to explain why we enjoy what we enjoy.
Second, if we want to explain it, you should not be telling us why we are wrong for enjoying what we enjoy.... that makes no sense. And yes, it is extremely close-minded, prejudice and patronizing.
I am not defending Democrats. I am not saying Eddie Vedder is a Democrat or has to support Democrats. I am not saying his fans have to support Democrats or that Republicans can't like good music. I don't give a rat's ass who Eddie Vedder supported in 2000. You'll note that I did not use the words Democrat or Republican anywhere in my original post..
My point was dead-on. Eddie Vedder and the band did a hell of a lot more to elect GWB than anyone else. They took votes away from Dems... thereby supporting conservatives. So, your point in this thread is counterintuitive.
My questiton with Evenflow is: For those people on this board who argue so strongly that homeless people are lazy and undeserving of compassion, how do you enjoy singing along to this song?.
I don't know how many countless times I've heard evenflow and I have absolutely no association of that song with homeless people whatsoever. I just don't see it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
So, for those songs with which people totally disagree, do you think they still enjoy them, sing along, keep them on their iPods?
And, if they knew for sure that PJ proceeds would be donated to pro-choice organizations, do you think staunchly "pro-life" fans would stop giving PJ their money?
Or, let's say Dick Cheney's a Pearl Jam fan. (Why wouldn't he be, right? They make great music and ideology is irrelevant.) Do you think he would continue to be a fan after going to Eddie's LA2 solo show and hearing him say that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, the doc should get the Man of the Year award?
OK. If it's a song I like, I will listen to it even if I disagree with the lyrics.
BUT AGAIN, lyrics mean many different things to many people and most songs can be interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what they do.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Although, as strongly as some people feel about abortion around here, I would be surprised if no one was offended by Pearl Jam's pro-choice message. Also, I know some people are offended by some of what Eddie says. I'm not sure if they just choose to overlook it or what.
OK. I'll bite on this one and see if I can enlighten you.
I am probably one of the most anti-abortion people you will ever find. I disagree with it in every way, shape or form. I'm religious, but I'd be against it even if I weren't.
That being said, I am not offended if someone says they are pro-abortion or talk about it that way. I might disagree with them, think they're hypocrites or whatever, but I am NOT going to be offended. It simply does not offend me at all.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
In an attempt to answer the question that I think the OP was asking, I love PJ and think primarily about the music when I say that. However, one of the reasons that the band has a special place in my heart is BECAUSE of their principles and values. Of course, I'm talking about Eddie mainly because he is the most vocal about those opinions. Leaving current politics aside (I'm not American, and won't be voting ), I'm thinking mainly of their stance on issues such the pro-choice argument, climate change and other things like this.
Although I could never say that I'd dislike a bands music because I disliked their views and opinions, I doubt that I'd be half as obsessive over them.
It's because I think that this band feel how I feel about certain issues that I'm able to get so much, not just from the music, but from my association with them and what they stand for.
However, it IS all about the music, in the end.
I guess I'm just shallow. I just like the music because I like it better than any other band's music. I don't give a darn about their principles.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
As the mods always state, you will be banned if it continues.
You, sir or madame... (i'm being catious here as i don't want you to tell on me and get me put into in school suspension!! ) i'm not sure which... but you crack me up! Really!
I'm off to listen to some white supremist tunes...this new band.. the bass player KICKS ASS!
*mwah*
All I can say is...
WOW !!! ??? ... LOL!!
Good stuff though. It was hard to get through all of the lol's and wow's and smiles ect. and I really didn't get your point at all. But, it was nice to see you could post. Have fun!
We all have friends and family that are conservative and liberal. Why can't we listen to bands that are both conservative and liberal?
Maybe I as a conservative can respect Eddie's views, even though I disagree with them most of the time. Part of the reason sometimes is that I agree with the ends, like no war or poverty, but I just disagree with how to get there.
Also, a song like Green Disease (which is a horrible song musically) doesn't bother me as a capitalist because I do agree that greed has taken over.
Here is the short answer though:
Maybe conservatives aren't close-minded like liberals? Common threads like these on this board are evidence of the fact that some liberals can't comprehend co-existing with someone whose values differ from theirs.
Good stuff though. It was hard to get through all of the lol's and wow's and smiles ect. and I really didn't get your point at all. But, it was nice to see you could post. Have fun!
Once again i see you appear to have missed the point of someone with differing views than yours. Mock all you will....
I think the OP and GTFLYGIRL appear to have a similar mindset to me.
WHATEVER!!
I too question how hardcore right wingers can be PJ crazies.
I think that may be the difference.
Maybe they confuse your being on a Pearl Jam board with you LOVING Pearl Jam. Maybe it's just another internet place for you. I think many who post here... like myself... are not big internet people... but big Pearl Jam fans.
Yes, and it's not condoned here to name call. As the mods always state, you will be banned if it continues.
You are showing your prejudice through your lack of sensativity for those who are different from you. You, as a liberal, don't understand how we could appreciate pearl jam? Well, can you as a liberal, explain the connection between any liberal and conservative? Do you think that there are issues our there that both liberals and conservatives can agree on? Do you always look at every issue as "conservative" or "liberal"? Do you look at everything, including music and entertainment throught a political perspective? Do you think politics all the time? If so, I feel sorry for you.
How are you not talking about politics, if you post this on MT and you title your post with the question you asked. You are the one not making sense.
First, we don't have to explain why we enjoy what we enjoy.
Second, if we want to explain it, you should not be telling us why we are wrong for enjoying what we enjoy.... that makes no sense. And yes, it is extremely close-minded, prejudice and patronizing.
You IMPLIED it with your question. You asked how is possible. As if, it's not. Well, as I said above, all you need to know is it is possible.
Is it necessary to name call? And people have a brain not a brian. lol
I don't care to know anything about you. I'm simply posting on a message board.
You are voting Democrat. And you certainly support that party in doing so.
My point was dead-on. Eddie Vedder and the band did a hell of a lot more to elect GWB than anyone else. They took votes away from Dems... thereby supporting conservatives. So, your point in this thread is counterintuitive.
RIght after you are banned.
Look, dude, you don't have any understanding of what this thread is about, what I believe, or what I am trying to ask. We are not talking about the same things. Your comments are not relevant to my original post. If you didn't want to answer my simple question, there was no need for you to join this thread at all, and certainly no reason for you to insult me.
The bottom line is that I don't have any respect for you, nor do I care what you think. Any desire I may have had to understand your perspective when I posted this thread is completely gone.
You are the one who jumped into my thread and started insulting me, thereby acting like an asshole, and I, in response, observed that you were acting like an asshole. My assessment stands. If you want to go and tattle and have me banned, that's fine. But if we're going to resort to acting like children, let me just say that you started it. :rolleyes:
I don't know how many countless times I've heard evenflow and I have absolutely no association of that song with homeless people whatsoever. I just don't see it.
Really? You've listened carefully to the lyrics and you don't see it? I didn't see it for years, but that's because I didn't really pay attention to the lyrics. But I didn't think there was any dispute that it's about homelessness. That's interesting, and actually somewhat answers my question.
OK. I'll bite on this one and see if I can enlighten you.
I am probably one of the most anti-abortion people you will ever find. I disagree with it in every way, shape or form. I'm religious, but I'd be against it even if I weren't.
That being said, I am not offended if someone says they are pro-abortion or talk about it that way. I might disagree with them, think they're hypocrites or whatever, but I am NOT going to be offended. It simply does not offend me at all.
See, I get that. I'm not really offended by people who say they are "pro-life". But if I thought they were hypocrites I couldn't get as excited about them as I get about Pearl Jam.
Also, would you want your money to be used to support pro-choice causes? I mean, you've gotta figure that it's at least subsidizing their pro-choice benefit shows, if not being directly donated to pro-choice organizations.
We all have friends and family that are conservative and liberal. Why can't we listen to bands that are both conservative and liberal?
Maybe I as a conservative can respect Eddie's views, even though I disagree with them most of the time. Part of the reason sometimes is that I agree with the ends, like no war or poverty, but I just disagree with how to get there.
Also, a song like Green Disease (which is a horrible song musically) doesn't bother me as a capitalist because I do agree that greed has taken over.
Here is the short answer though: Maybe conservatives aren't close-minded like liberals? Common threads like these on this board are evidence of the fact that some liberals can't comprehend co-existing with someone whose values differ from theirs.
Yeah, because that's not a close-minded stereotype AT ALL! :rolleyes:
Once again i see you appear to have missed the point of someone with differing views than yours. Mock all you will....
I think the OP and GTFLYGIRL appear to have a similar mindset to me.
WHATEVER!!
I too question how hardcore right wingers can be PJ crazies.
I think that may be the difference.
Maybe they confuse your being on a Pearl Jam board with you LOVING Pearl Jam. Maybe it's just another internet place for you. I think many who post here... like myself... are not big internet people... but big Pearl Jam fans.
Sad you didn't see her point... but it's ok...
See, that's another interesting theory! Thank you.
I was thinking of people on this board when I made this thread, and I assumed that people are on this board because they are "PJ crazies".
I understand that one can appreciate music just simply for the music, but it's the intensity with which the really hard core fans love, appreciate, find personal meaning in, and identify with the music and the band itself that I have trouble understanding within the context of strongly disagreeing with their ideology. Like I said before, I can like the music of bands with whom I disagree, but they're not going to be my FAVORITE band.
Maybe it was hasty of me to assume that people on this board all love Pearl Jam to this extent.
Also, would you want your money to be used to support pro-choice causes? I mean, you've gotta figure that it's at least subsidizing their pro-choice benefit shows, if not being directly donated to pro-choice organizations.
I think the majority of people would put less stock in that than you would, for example. I just don't think their thought process would be that "this band makes my favorite music, but I can't support them because some of their money may go to pro-choice groups." Personally, if I was going to see a band that was putting on a benefit for outlawing gay marriage for example (pick your example), I probably would support the group but not attend that show. However, I don't think most people are that picky.
Comments
please answer this post...
present five songs that specifically fall against the "conservative" agenda outside of Bushleager...
...and I'll give you a "conservative" response...
I think this whole thread is ridiculous. But, I figure you need to learn that...
1. Conservatives want homeless to not be homeless
2. Conservatives do NOT want war, but think a strong military prevents war (ie Cold War)
3. Conservatives value LIFE and each individual should not have that right taken away.
We simply disagree on the way to get there. I'd be willing to bet that Eddie, given the fact that he was so good of friends with Johnny Ramone, would prefer to talk politics with an open-minded conservative (ie Jonny Ramone or even Neil Young) than a close-minded liberal (someone who thinks all PJ fans should be liberal).
Whoa, now...nice try. :-)
I think maybe the question isn't necessarily a split between liberal and conservative, but more of those listeners who may have an ideological problem with the songs; not necessarily those who are conservatives, but those who DO think the homeless are lazy (Even Flow), or DON'T think racism exists in America, and so on and so forth. I think that's a different question, and not one that falls along party lines. In those cases, I think the power of the music and vocals and the poetry of the lyrics overwhelms any concern about the offensiveness of the lyrics. But, to be honest, I haven't found many people in PJ crowds that are THAT ignorant that they would be offended by mainstream notions as sympathy towards the homeless, etc. I really think that's a question between ignorance and non-ignorance, not conservative and liberal. So maybe it was the wrong words to use.
Why nice try? Neil Young was a huge Reagan supporter and Johnny was a Republican.
I don't know anyone who does not sympathize with homeless. THinking government is the answer is different than thinking private charities are the answer. Thinking government is the answer instead of increasing jobs via economic growth.... Bottom line.... we simply disagree on the way to get there. Some think gov't solves the issue.... others think private sector can. Accept that, and we are good.
So if I note that you're a fucking jackass does that show my lack of an open mind as well?
How am I showing that I'm prejudice? That doesn't make any sense. Please elaborate.
And how many times do I have to say I'm not talking about politics??
I asked a simple question. I didn't pass any judgement, I just asked people to explain their positions to me (which you have not done). How exactly is it patronizing, prejudiced, or close-minded to say, "I'd like to understand where you're coming from. Please explain to me your perspective."?
Please quote when I said that you're not allowed to enjoy good music, or even that you SHOULDN'T like Pearl Jam.
If I have a brian? Is it really necessary for you to be such an asshole all the time? Seriously - is it?
You have clearly not understood any part of my OP, however, and know next to nothing about me.
I am NOT a Democrat. They are not "my" party.
I am not defending Democrats. I am not saying Eddie Vedder is a Democrat or has to support Democrats. I am not saying his fans have to support Democrats or that Republicans can't like good music. I don't give a rat's ass who Eddie Vedder supported in 2000. You'll note that I did not use the words Democrat or Republican anywhere in my original post.
Please don't get back to me until you understand the topic and can stop being an asshole.
Neil Young flirted with Reagan-era conservatism for one album (the second side of Hawks and Doves). He mentioned in an interview once or twice in the early 80s things that were close to supporting Reagan. It disappeared pretty fast, and it's a far cry from Neil Young being a "conservative"...a kinder, gentler machine gun hand? He's not far, far left, but I think it's stretching it quite far to call him a conservative. Johnny Ramone was certainly a Republican however.
Well, I know plenty of people who do not sympathize with the homeless. I don't view that viewpoint through a partisan lens, however.
Huh? What are you talking about? That was not a generalization for all conservative statements.
I swear, I'm starting to think thread has turned into a bad episode of the Twilight Zone.
Thank you for being the first person to actually answer my question.
I think you have a good point, particularly regarding what I bolded. My curiosity arose from reading some of the things people post on here (which I, perhaps mistakenly, labeled conservative simply for lack of a better word). Some people post some ideas/values on here I that I completely disagree with, am offended by, or find assinine. These values generally seem in opposition to the values promoted by Pearl Jam.
My thinking was that since there's no way in hell I could support a band that espouses the values of these posters, and PJ values seem to be the opposite, I don't understand how these posters can support PJ.
But perhaps opposite values are not equally offensive to both parties. For example, while anti-woman ideals are offensive to feminists, perhaps pro-woman ideals aren't necessarily equally offensive to misogynists.
Although, as strongly as some people feel about abortion around here, I would be surprised if no one was offended by Pearl Jam's pro-choice message. Also, I know some people are offended by some of what Eddie says. I'm not sure if they just choose to overlook it or what. I know at least some people know what I'm talking about, considering that there was a thread on the Porch yesterday where a guy said he was going to stop being a PJ fan because, as a conservative, he disagreed with much of what they stand for. So at least I'm sure I'm not totally crazy to consider this possibility.
Although I could never say that I'd dislike a bands music because I disliked their views and opinions, I doubt that I'd be half as obsessive over them.
It's because I think that this band feel how I feel about certain issues that I'm able to get so much, not just from the music, but from my association with them and what they stand for.
However, it IS all about the music, in the end.
Wembley 18/06/07
If there was a reason, it was you.
O2 Arena 18/09/09
I would be able to listen to and maybe even enjoy a well-written, respectful, pro-life song. But I wouldn't cite that band as my FAVORITE band. I also wouldn't buy their albums or pay for their concerts (and certianly wouldn't spend thousands of dollars supporting them) if I had good reason to believe that my money would be used to further the "pro-life" cause. And I don't see any difference between this and refusing to spend money at any other business that donates to such causes, regardless of how good their product is.
I don't think, however, that just because a pro-life song could never be as meaningful to me as a pro-choice one, that means I'm not able to listen to and respect someone else's position in debating the issue.
I think there are some country musicians who musically promote conservative ideals (even some registered Democrats).
Once again, you're getting defensive even though you haven't the slightest idea what I'm talking about. This post is not relevant to my thread.
Once again, thank you for having some understanding of what I'm talking about.
Enjoy the music for what it is, MUSIC.
Regardless of what would solve homelessness, some people say that if someone is homeless it's their own damn fault, that they're lazy, that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, etc. They say, "If I could 'succeed' there's no reason why these people can't, so if they don't then they must not deserve to." Some people are oblivious to the hardships others face. Some people think everyone else gets what they deserve. This is my idea of not sympathizing with the homeless.
And I assume the "nice try" comment was referring to the fact that the political affiliations of Neil Young and Johnny Ramone are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Yes! That's exactly how I feel. Thank you.
Your first question is a bit complicated (at least for me) because I think it would depend on the subject matter and tact of the lyrics. Personally, I think a good work of art, in whatever form, is presented in a way that can make someone look at an issue in another light and maybe reconsider their original position on the matter. If the lyrics do not present an issue in a different perspective, but instead, insults folks for having another position, then no, I don't think they would enjoy the song.
As far as the staunchly pro-life person, it would be my guess that they would not want any money of theirs going to pro-choice causes, via Cd purchase or otherwise. That question would best be answered by someone who is, indeed, staunchly pro-life. I'm just wagering a guess here.
As far as the Dick Cheney fan question, I think Ed's comment might be a deal breaker as far as Cheney remaining a fan.
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Yes, and it's not condoned here to name call. As the mods always state, you will be banned if it continues.
You are showing your prejudice through your lack of sensativity for those who are different from you. You, as a liberal, don't understand how we could appreciate pearl jam? Well, can you as a liberal, explain the connection between any liberal and conservative? Do you think that there are issues our there that both liberals and conservatives can agree on? Do you always look at every issue as "conservative" or "liberal"? Do you look at everything, including music and entertainment throught a political perspective? Do you think politics all the time? If so, I feel sorry for you.
How are you not talking about politics, if you post this on MT and you title your post with the question you asked. You are the one not making sense.
First, we don't have to explain why we enjoy what we enjoy.
Second, if we want to explain it, you should not be telling us why we are wrong for enjoying what we enjoy.... that makes no sense. And yes, it is extremely close-minded, prejudice and patronizing.
You IMPLIED it with your question. You asked how is possible. As if, it's not. Well, as I said above, all you need to know is it is possible.
Is it necessary to name call? And people have a brain not a brian. lol
I don't care to know anything about you. I'm simply posting on a message board.
You are voting Democrat. And you certainly support that party in doing so.
My point was dead-on. Eddie Vedder and the band did a hell of a lot more to elect GWB than anyone else. They took votes away from Dems... thereby supporting conservatives. So, your point in this thread is counterintuitive.
RIght after you are banned.
I don't know how many countless times I've heard evenflow and I have absolutely no association of that song with homeless people whatsoever. I just don't see it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
OK. If it's a song I like, I will listen to it even if I disagree with the lyrics.
BUT AGAIN, lyrics mean many different things to many people and most songs can be interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what they do.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
OK. I'll bite on this one and see if I can enlighten you.
I am probably one of the most anti-abortion people you will ever find. I disagree with it in every way, shape or form. I'm religious, but I'd be against it even if I weren't.
That being said, I am not offended if someone says they are pro-abortion or talk about it that way. I might disagree with them, think they're hypocrites or whatever, but I am NOT going to be offended. It simply does not offend me at all.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I guess I'm just shallow. I just like the music because I like it better than any other band's music. I don't give a darn about their principles.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You, sir or madame... (i'm being catious here as i don't want you to tell on me and get me put into in school suspension!! ) i'm not sure which... but you crack me up! Really!
LOL!
Of course you don't. Duh. You chose to respond to the thread.
Answer the question? No. Respond to the thread. YES.
Talk about missing the point of the OP?? WOW! :rolleyes:
WOW. Talk about the power of Pearl Jam.
Is this known as the Pearl Jam Factor amongst you hardore righties??
(Righties because you're always right ??? ... ahhh.. no..just sarcasm
Many of us believe it was lost due to a combo of:
1. Gore just plain didn't score enough votes...(if he had wowed the people that voted for Nader... maybe he would have.. but he didn't)
2. Combined with some good old fashioned electoral rigging...
3. And some supreme court judges that were in bed with the Bush's (i.e. Scalia)
I love Pearl Jam and all... but REALLY!
But not me!!
I'm off to listen to some white supremist tunes...this new band.. the bass player KICKS ASS!
*mwah*
All I can say is...
WOW
Good stuff though. It was hard to get through all of the lol's and wow's and smiles ect. and I really didn't get your point at all. But, it was nice to see you could post. Have fun!
Maybe I as a conservative can respect Eddie's views, even though I disagree with them most of the time. Part of the reason sometimes is that I agree with the ends, like no war or poverty, but I just disagree with how to get there.
Also, a song like Green Disease (which is a horrible song musically) doesn't bother me as a capitalist because I do agree that greed has taken over.
Here is the short answer though:
Maybe conservatives aren't close-minded like liberals? Common threads like these on this board are evidence of the fact that some liberals can't comprehend co-existing with someone whose values differ from theirs.
Once again i see you appear to have missed the point of someone with differing views than yours. Mock all you will....
I think the OP and GTFLYGIRL appear to have a similar mindset to me.
WHATEVER!!
I too question how hardcore right wingers can be PJ crazies.
I think that may be the difference.
Maybe they confuse your being on a Pearl Jam board with you LOVING Pearl Jam. Maybe it's just another internet place for you. I think many who post here... like myself... are not big internet people... but big Pearl Jam fans.
Sad you didn't see her point... but it's ok...
Look, dude, you don't have any understanding of what this thread is about, what I believe, or what I am trying to ask. We are not talking about the same things. Your comments are not relevant to my original post. If you didn't want to answer my simple question, there was no need for you to join this thread at all, and certainly no reason for you to insult me.
The bottom line is that I don't have any respect for you, nor do I care what you think. Any desire I may have had to understand your perspective when I posted this thread is completely gone.
You are the one who jumped into my thread and started insulting me, thereby acting like an asshole, and I, in response, observed that you were acting like an asshole. My assessment stands. If you want to go and tattle and have me banned, that's fine. But if we're going to resort to acting like children, let me just say that you started it.
Really? You've listened carefully to the lyrics and you don't see it? I didn't see it for years, but that's because I didn't really pay attention to the lyrics. But I didn't think there was any dispute that it's about homelessness. That's interesting, and actually somewhat answers my question.
See, I get that. I'm not really offended by people who say they are "pro-life". But if I thought they were hypocrites I couldn't get as excited about them as I get about Pearl Jam.
Also, would you want your money to be used to support pro-choice causes? I mean, you've gotta figure that it's at least subsidizing their pro-choice benefit shows, if not being directly donated to pro-choice organizations.
Yeah, because that's not a close-minded stereotype AT ALL! :rolleyes:
See, that's another interesting theory! Thank you.
I was thinking of people on this board when I made this thread, and I assumed that people are on this board because they are "PJ crazies".
I understand that one can appreciate music just simply for the music, but it's the intensity with which the really hard core fans love, appreciate, find personal meaning in, and identify with the music and the band itself that I have trouble understanding within the context of strongly disagreeing with their ideology. Like I said before, I can like the music of bands with whom I disagree, but they're not going to be my FAVORITE band.
Maybe it was hasty of me to assume that people on this board all love Pearl Jam to this extent.
I think the majority of people would put less stock in that than you would, for example. I just don't think their thought process would be that "this band makes my favorite music, but I can't support them because some of their money may go to pro-choice groups." Personally, if I was going to see a band that was putting on a benefit for outlawing gay marriage for example (pick your example), I probably would support the group but not attend that show. However, I don't think most people are that picky.