How can really conservative people be hard core Pearl Jam fans?

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  • brandon10
    brandon10 Posts: 1,114
    know1 wrote:
    (This is about a dozen times I've seen this thread since I've been around)

    I honestly do not see Pearl Jam's music as political at all other than that terrible Bushleaguer "song".

    And I do not go to the concerts to hear Eddie talk politics. If he spent more than the 2 mins or so in a 3 hour concert babbling about politics, I wouldn't be happy,

    In other words, it's about the music for me...which has very, very little to do with politics.


    Good points.

    Although I got lucky that my favirite band has a lot of the same political veiws as I, I can see why anyone could love this band. You are right, there are many songs that don't have political influence.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    know1 wrote:
    (This is about a dozen times I've seen this thread since I've been around)

    I honestly do not see Pearl Jam's music as political at all other than that terrible Bushleaguer "song".

    And I do not go to the concerts to hear Eddie talk politics. If he spent more than the 2 mins or so in a 3 hour concert babbling about politics, I wouldn't be happy,

    In other words, it's about the music for me...which has very, very little to do with politics.

    Maybe I wasn't clear that I'm talking about conservative IDEAS and VALUES - regarding social issues, etc. - not just official politics. In my mind, many of their songs (including covers), their words outside of songs, and their actions promote their values. Here are just the first few I can think of:

    No More (anti-war)
    Masters of War (anti-war)
    Bushleaguer (anti-conservative-President)
    Porch tag (pro-choice)
    Ed writing "'pro-choice on his arm & wearing the image of a coathanger on his shirt during performances of Porch (pro-choice)
    Evenflow (empathy for the homeless - rather than saying they must be lazy fucks who should get a job)
    Glorified G (anti-gun-culture)
    WMA (anti-institutional-racism)
    Rolling Stone article about Ed's experience with abortion (pro-choice)
    Performing at pro-choice benefit concerts (pro-choice)
    Performing at Nader rallies (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Performing at Vote for Change shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Saying at the LA2 solo show that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, he should get a Man of the Year award (anti-conservative-VP)
    Here's to the State (anti-conservative-leaders)
    Giant Obama banner at solo shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Et cetera
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    digster wrote:
    True, Johnny was. But I believe he was surrounded by a bunch of liberals, so it's hard to call the Ramones a 'conservative' band.

    But these labels are pretty meaningless in music, I feel. Is a band a 'liberal' band just because it's made up of liberals? Is a band a 'conservative' band if its' players are conservative Republicans? I think it depends more on the political content of the lyrics then the politics of the players.

    Yes, I'm talking about the values espoused by the band as a band, the causes it supports as a band, the messages it sends through its music and at its concerts, the way it uses its platform to affect change, etc.

    I don't care as much about people's personal lives/beliefs. I don't usually know much about their personal lives and don't seek to know. (One exception is that I don't want to give my money to pedophiles, to people who have vowed to donate it to causes I strongly oppose, etc.)
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Interesting... I just saw this thread that was started over on the Porch today:

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?p=5971110#post5971110

    Folks had some intersting stuff to say over there.
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    Maicojames wrote:
    I think you may be slipping into sterotypes. I have been a fan since Ten ( actually loved Temple before seeing PJ)-and have not always voted a party ticket-one side or the other. Perhaps we all could be more careful of labels should we entertain oursleves as honestly empathetic.

    BTW, Toby Keith is a registered Democrat....and I am pretty sure he has smoked some weed with more than Willy.

    I know Toby Keith is a Democrat, which is indicative of the fact that I'm not trying to stereotype. (Sorry if it came across that way, but that's not what I meant.) I haven't always voted along party lines either, and I'm not a Democrat. You'll note that I didn't use the words Democrat or Republican anywhere in my post and have not labeled anyone.

    What I'm saying is that I don't understand how people who have completely opposite views on politics, social issues, etc. than Pearl Jam could consider PJ to be their FAVORITE band. That's not to say that any particular person or party has any particular views. But some people on this board seem to strongly disagree about things that are fundamental to what the band is trying to accomplish. I don't understand how (note that I'm not saying they shouldn't) someone who disagrees with one of the band's primary purposes (to send a message in support of certain political and social change) could be such a big supporter.

    For instance, I am staunchly pro-choice. So is Pearl Jam, who promote choice through (at least tags on one of) their songs, through visual images, through speeches and articles, through playing benefits, etc. They are not privately pro-choice. They use their band as a force to support the pro-choice movement.

    But there are some people on this board (who presumably love Pearl Jam) who are staunchy "pro-life". They say that abortion should not be a legal option for women, that women who have abortions are irresponsible, that people who are pro-choice are heartless bastards, etc. If any of those people had a band and used it to promote these ideas, there's no way in hell I could support them or claim them as my favorite band. Similarly, if I thought Eddie Vedder was a heartless bastard, I couldn't support him.

    Additionally, I'm a feminist and I don't like songs that are disparaging to women. I'm anti-war and I don't like songs that promote war (hence the Toby Keith reference). I support gay rights and I don't like songs that make reference to "faggots". (I refer here to a Guns N' Roses song, which I used to like until I got older and really considered the lyrics.) I'm against pedophilia and don't support music made by pedophiles. Am I perfect with these standards? Of course not. But even for the bands I kind of like anyway, I would certainly not consider any of them to be even close to my favorite band.

    Anyway, I hope I've better explained myself this time. I am by no means suggesting that no Republican should like Pearl Jam or that all PJ fans should be liberal Democrats, nor am I stereotyping the values of any group. I just don't understand how people can so strongly support and enjoy any art or artist whose message is so strongly contrary to their own values.
  • It_Wasnt_My_Surface
    It_Wasnt_My_Surface Posts: 851
    I consider myself more of a Republican and my favorite band is Pearl Jam. But it's not because of their political beliefs by any means. I don't judge anyone on that. I love Pearl Jam for the mere fact that they make amazing music and lyrically I can relate to almost every song in some way or another. Their music isn't political. Just because I don't agree with someone on their political stand point doesn't mean I have to hate them. I mean I love Basketball, Baseball, Music, almost everything they do minus Surfing and the Democratic Party.
  • acutejam
    acutejam Posts: 1,433
    This came up after Ed's Berkeley shows (and in 2006, and before that many, many times), specifically his Monday night show where he couldn't get Berkeley ... BERKELEY ... to sing a protest song with him.

    For me, it's about the emotions in these songs, and I'd go song-by-song, line-by-line with you if you want, but by far, Pearl Jam and Eddie sing about emotions far more than politics.

    I can sit there and laugh along with Bushleager, giggle at Hail to the State and get all intenze with Masters of War, cause what I really wanna do is just ... "Release."

    And then, "Smile!"

    Wrote it up, take a moment and read it, won't you?
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5371045&postcount=18

    And to understand the Island reference:
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5371052&postcount=19

    Heck, that whole thread is good and i welcome the thoughtful responses.
    [sic] happens
  • _
    _ Posts: 6,657
    acutejam wrote:
    This came up after Ed's Berkeley shows (and in 2006, and before that many, many times), specifically his Monday night show where he couldn't get Berkeley ... BERKELEY ... to sing a protest song with him.

    For me, it's about the emotions in these songs, and I'd go song-by-song, line-by-line with you if you want, but by far, Pearl Jam and Eddie sing about emotions far more than politics.

    I can sit there and laugh along with Bushleager, giggle at Hail to the State and get all intenze with Masters of War, cause what I really wanna do is just ... "Release."

    And then, "Smile!"

    Wrote it up, take a moment and read it, won't you?
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5371045&postcount=18

    And to understand the Island reference:
    http://forums.pearljam.com/showpost.php?p=5371052&postcount=19

    Heck, that whole thread is good and i welcome the thoughtful responses.

    I read your links. Thanks for sharing.

    I think many people aren't really understanding what I'm saying. I'm not talking about politics per se. But I'm too tired to try to explain it again right now.
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    scb wrote:
    I honestly don't get it. Being a liberal, I can't imagine that I could ever be a huge fan of a band that used its music and platform to promote extremly conservative ideas.

    I love music for what it says, not just the guitar riff behind it. So if it said a bunch of stuff that I thought was total BS, I wouldn't be able to really love the music, and I wouldn't want to.

    Additionally, I don't think being a talented musician makes up for being an offensive asshole. So I wouldn't be able to respect Ed as a person if he were espousing political philosophies or other ideas that I found offensive.

    And before someone pulls out the same old tired anti-liberal line frequently used on this board, let me be clear that I love Pearl Jam in large part because of their liberal politics; I do not have liberal politics because I love Pearl Jam.
    I think if your conservative and didn't listen or watch movies because they were associated with liberals your entertainment choices would be limited, after all probably 90 percent of hollywood is democratic and probably the same for musicians. Personally I don't get why people give a rats ass who a celebrity votes or tells them to vote for. Myself I vote for who I believe might make my life better, but I never have high expectations that any politician or government pinhead will improve my life all that much.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

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  • know1
    know1 Posts: 6,801
    scb wrote:
    Maybe I wasn't clear that I'm talking about conservative IDEAS and VALUES - regarding social issues, etc. - not just official politics. In my mind, many of their songs (including covers), their words outside of songs, and their actions promote their values. Here are just the first few I can think of:

    No More (anti-war)
    Masters of War (anti-war)
    Bushleaguer (anti-conservative-President)
    Porch tag (pro-choice)
    Ed writing "'pro-choice on his arm & wearing the image of a coathanger on his shirt during performances of Porch (pro-choice)
    Evenflow (empathy for the homeless - rather than saying they must be lazy fucks who should get a job)
    Glorified G (anti-gun-culture)
    WMA (anti-institutional-racism)
    Rolling Stone article about Ed's experience with abortion (pro-choice)
    Performing at pro-choice benefit concerts (pro-choice)
    Performing at Nader rallies (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Performing at Vote for Change shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Saying at the LA2 solo show that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, he should get a Man of the Year award (anti-conservative-VP)
    Here's to the State (anti-conservative-leaders)
    Giant Obama banner at solo shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Et cetera

    First of all, you've only named about 4 actual PJ songs there (discounting tags and covers). Their catalog is much more extensive than that.

    Secondly and more importantly, their lyrics really aren't that specific. Those songs can really mean a wide range of things to different people. For example, I have never once thought that EvenFlow was anything even remotely political.

    As far as speeches, statements, banners, etc., they just do not make up that big a part of the concerts or the experience of their music for me. I went to one of the VFC shows and Eddie gave a little 2-3 minute speech which really wasn't Pro-Democratic at all. The message was to vote and to vote with your head.

    Maybe us conservative fans aren't as intolerant as you like to portray us. Would the liberal fans sit through some of those statements and be as accepting of others' opinions in a public demonstration?
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • yoke
    yoke Posts: 1,440
    I understand what you are saying to an extent but I even remember Eddie railing against Clinton at one time so technically he is against himself and should not be a fan of the band:)

    I consider myself a conservative and I never vote Party lines beleive it or not. I vote for who I feel is the best candidate for the job. I never go into an election booth and just click Dem or Rep down the line. I research each candidate on their own and decide that way. No person or band influences me either way. If I can't research and make up my own mind then what is the sense in voting? I might as well be a robot in the booth pulling levers. When Ed talks during shows it doesn't bother me, its his view point not mine. Are you going to tell me that you agree 100% with every artist you like?
    Thats a lovely accent you have. New Jersey?

    www.seanbrady.net
  • walden freeman
    walden freeman Posts: 511
    What is with this whole liberal/conservative thing? Am I missing something? Are there only two possibly ideologies out there?

    What a terrible mindset.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,766
    walden freeman wrote:
    What is with this whole liberal/conservative thing? Am I missing something? Are there only two possibly ideologies out there?

    What a terrible mindset.
    wasn't supposed to be JUST a two party system. somewhere along the line it devolved to what we have now.
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  • muppet
    muppet Posts: 980
    Anyone watch The West Wing? There was that episode where the Republicans were trying to get through some bill that would discriminate against gays or something. There was a gay Republican who went along with it, his justification been that although he disagreed with this particular policy, his homosexuality didn't define his life, and it shouldn't get in the way of the fact he agreed with other aspects of Republican policy.

    Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.
  • SoonForgotten2
    SoonForgotten2 Posts: 2,245
    muppet wrote:
    Anyone watch The West Wing? There was that episode where the Republicans were trying to get through some bill that would discriminate against gays or something. There was a gay Republican who went along with it, his justification been that although he disagreed with this particular policy, his homosexuality didn't define his life, and it shouldn't get in the way of the fact he agreed with other aspects of Republican policy.

    Okay, it's not very sophisticated becuase it's the fucking West Wing, but hey food for thought.

    Which means what? Yay for voting along party lines, instead of on the issues? Politics is swell.
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  • yosi1
    yosi1 Posts: 3,272
    scb wrote:
    I honestly don't get it. Being a liberal, I can't imagine that I could ever be a huge fan of a band that used its music and platform to promote extremly conservative ideas.

    I love music for what it says, not just the guitar riff behind it. So if it said a bunch of stuff that I thought was total BS, I wouldn't be able to really love the music, and I wouldn't want to.

    Additionally, I don't think being a talented musician makes up for being an offensive asshole. So I wouldn't be able to respect Ed as a person if he were espousing political philosophies or other ideas that I found offensive.

    And before someone pulls out the same old tired anti-liberal line frequently used on this board, let me be clear that I love Pearl Jam in large part because of their liberal politics; I do not have liberal politics because I love Pearl Jam.

    Some people like music for the music. Not the message.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane.
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    I think the mark of great art is when it can transcend gender, age, religion, race, culture, etc. Granted there are a few examples of PJ, specifically Ed, being quite literal about their political leanings. But I think the catalog of their music as a whole transcends that due to the subjectivity of the music and lyrics. I might take away a different meaning from some lyrics than someone else. Or perhaps we take away the same meaning, however we disagree with how to achieve an outcome politically, thus the different political leanings. And certainly there are those hot button topics like abortion and gay marriage that folks just can't agree on. So, perhaps it is the messages and feelings that the conservatives agree with PJ in their music that attracts them and that connection is strong enough for them to 'agree to disagree' on the other stuff. Just my 2 cents.
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    ~Albert Einstein
  • digster
    digster Posts: 1,293
    scb wrote:
    Maybe I wasn't clear that I'm talking about conservative IDEAS and VALUES - regarding social issues, etc. - not just official politics. In my mind, many of their songs (including covers), their words outside of songs, and their actions promote their values. Here are just the first few I can think of:

    No More (anti-war)
    Masters of War (anti-war)
    Bushleaguer (anti-conservative-President)
    Porch tag (pro-choice)
    Ed writing "'pro-choice on his arm & wearing the image of a coathanger on his shirt during performances of Porch (pro-choice)
    Evenflow (empathy for the homeless - rather than saying they must be lazy fucks who should get a job)
    Glorified G (anti-gun-culture)
    WMA (anti-institutional-racism)
    Rolling Stone article about Ed's experience with abortion (pro-choice)
    Performing at pro-choice benefit concerts (pro-choice)
    Performing at Nader rallies (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Performing at Vote for Change shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Saying at the LA2 solo show that if Cheney's doctor "accidentally" killed him, he should get a Man of the Year award (anti-conservative-VP)
    Here's to the State (anti-conservative-leaders)
    Giant Obama banner at solo shows (pro-liberal-Presidential-candidate)
    Et cetera

    Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.

    But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.
  • saveuplife
    saveuplife Posts: 1,173
    This thread shows the OP's complete lack of an open-mind. Perhaps, it's conservative PJ fans, who show atleast in their taste of music, that they can interpret music as "music". And seperate politics from music. Perhaps, it's conservative fans who show they aren't predjudice.... as you, the OP, are showing you are with this thread.

    I know PJ as well as anyone on here. Don't for one second patronize me with this type of crap. I'm not allowed to enjoy good music? Personally, I've always enjoyed songs that aren't direct political hits. Why? Because music is music. In my opinion, it's not meant to be divisive... but rather unifying. My PJ songs are songs like...

    Alive
    Black
    Release
    Go
    Animal
    Daughter
    Elderly Woman
    Spin the Black Circle
    Cordorouy
    Immortality
    Better Man
    Nothing Man
    Hail Hail
    Who You Are
    IN my Tree
    Present Tense
    Nothing As it Seems
    Light Years
    I got ID
    Long Road
    I am Mine
    Love Boat Captain
    Save You
    Life Wasted
    Severed Hand
    HArd Sun

    Lots of singles there.... and there's many more.


    Moreover, if you have a brain, you'd admit that Eddie Vedder did a hell of a lot more for Bush earlier in this decade than he did for any Democrat, your party. He supported Nader.... and a number of PJ fans followed suit. These are people who, quite obviously, would have voted Democrat rather than Republican. He took votes away from Dems in that train of thinking.
  • saveuplife
    saveuplife Posts: 1,173
    digster wrote:
    Several things here; I appreciate your point. First of all, much of what you wrote there has nothing to do with the music itself, but rather causes, statements, etc. surrounding the music. I'm sure many fans of the band suffer these interludes and are content to enjoy a band that espouses different views than them. I enjoy my father, who espouses far different views than I do. It's a simplistic analogy, but I think it works. And we often see criticism of Vedder's between song ranting regarding political matters. Many of these criticisms often stem from the fact that people may not agree with Eddie's views. Personally, I think Eddie should stem the banter because I think he's much more intelligent with his views and points in the music than outside of it. I don't think he serves his points well.

    But in regards to the music; do PJ really take that offensive a stance in their music for the most part? I mean, I don't think most conservative fans are necessarily against a song that is empathetic towards the homeless (Even Flow) or against institutional racism (W.M.A.); as I said before, for the most part, PJ takes pretty universal political stands that span across conventional political boundaries (Insignificance, Grievance). I also think that these types of political songs, where Eddie remains relatively poetic and opaque, are their best political work. Songs like Bushleaguer, which are more overt, tend to not do as well. And plus, when it comes down to it, Insignifcance, Grievance, Even Flow, etc. are kick-ass songs that are more than their words. Those aspects of the song can sometimes override the political concerns. Hell, people loved early R.E.M. and couldn't even tell what Stipe was saying. Sometimes the feelings and emotions conveyed overrule the meaning.


    well put.

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