are you against america

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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    Let's address this basic premise from a different angle...
    ...
    It's 1939 and we are all citizens of Germany... who here would be hiding Jews in their attic and who would be pointing them out to the Brown Shirts?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Medicated-Genius
    Medicated-Genius Posts: 359
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Dirtie Frank, don't worry about what they tell you. Most of them are proud to hate their country. They don't give a shit about patriotism or the USA.

    You're not hurting their feelings if you say they are against America. They like to hear that.


    Is it possible for you to think outside the square for a moment. Perhaps try and put yourself in the position of a person who truly believes that their government is betraying everything they believe in. Even if you don't agree with it yourself, see that as their reality, and their attitudes towards what they believe their government is doing is exactly what is inspiring their sense of patriotism. Their reality is that the freedoms and liberties they hold so dear, are being stripped away, piece by piece, and it's their love of their country, their patriotism, that causes them to speak up about it.

    I can try and see it from your perspective. That your reality is that anyone who speaks up is unpatriotic and hates the USA, that they don't give a shit about it. I don't understand or agree with your truth, but I am willing to at least look at the fact thats where you are coming from. I hope you can do the same.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    That's cool say what you want but comparing the US to Nazi Germany is...... ahh that just gets to me

    I didn't compare the U.S to Nazi Germany. I compared the Bush administration to the Nazis.
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I didn't compare the U.S to Nazi Germany. I compared the Bush administration to the Nazis.

    I was wonderin where you've been. no tix for me for the VIC show. lolla's almost here. carry on.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We're nothing like Nazi Germany. Period.

    I disagree. Period.
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Medicated-Genius wrote:
    Is it possible for you to think outside the square for a moment. Perhaps try and put yourself in the position of a person who truly believes that their government is betraying everything they believe in. Even if you don't agree with it yourself, see that as their reality, and their attitudes towards what they believe their government is doing is exactly what is inspiring their sense of patriotism. Their reality is that the freedoms and liberties they hold so dear, are being stripped away, piece by piece, and it's their love of their country, their patriotism, that causes them to speak up about it.

    I can try and see it from your perspective. That your reality is that anyone who speaks up is unpatriotic and hates the USA, that they don't give a shit about it. I don't understand or agree with your truth, but I am willing to at least look at the fact thats where you are coming from. I hope you can do the same.

    We have less freedom today than we did 200 years ago. Am I going to love my country any less for that?

    Anyone who speaks up is patriotic and I've never said otherwise.

    People who don't like "our loss of liberty" really don't understand American history though. Even when we've lost our liberties (like when FDR interned the Japs) we could still remain proud of our nation. Being proud of one's nation has nothing to do with the type of government you have. Is it better if we have freedom? Yes. But pride in your country rests on having pride in one's people, not in one's government.

    The American people like their freedom and their national sovereignty. If you love your people, you don't hate what they love.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I was wonderin where you've been. no tix for me for the VIC show. lolla's almost here. carry on.

    My jealousy meter has gone into the red. After Wembley, then Copenhagen, and now this!! If PJ don't play Seoul this year then my head may implode.
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

    What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

    I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

    I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.

    we were all united. a disastrous course of foreign policy that added to the deaths america suffered on 9/11 has divided us. i very happy to be an american. that does not mean i agree with it's current direction or its leadership.

    it is also incredibly ironic that you point to free speech as a great thing about america and then ask us not to use it.
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    soulsinging wrote:
    we were all united. a disastrous course of foreign policy that added to the deaths america suffered on 9/11 has divided us. i very happy to be an american. that does not mean i agree with it's current direction or its leadership.

    it is also incredibly ironic that you point to free speech as a great thing about america and then ask us not to use it.

    Free speech should be used wisely.

    "But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
    -Edmund Burke
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Medicated-Genius
    Medicated-Genius Posts: 359
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We have less freedom today than we did 200 years ago. Am I going to love my country any less for that?

    Anyone who speaks up is patriotic and I've never said otherwise.

    People who don't like "our loss of liberty" really don't understand American history though. Even when we've lost our liberties (like when FDR interned the Japs) we could still remain proud of our nation. Being proud of one's nation has nothing to do with the type of government you have. Is it better if we have freedom? Yes. But pride in your country rests on having pride in one's people, not in one's government.

    The American people like their freedom and their national sovereignty. If you love your people, you don't hate what they love.


    Ok, I guess I took you the wrong way. I interpreted your statements to mean that the act of being critical of government meant not giving a shit about patriotism and the USA. My bad.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    "But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? ....it is folly, vice, and madness."
    -Edmund Burke


    Sounds like my kind of party! :)
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Free speech should be used wisely.

    "But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
    -Edmund Burke
    ...
    Well... i WANT the Neo-Nazis and the K.K.K. members to speak out... so I can avoid their asses. The worst thing is to have them driven underground to the point where you don't know who your are talking to.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Many people on this board love other people from other countries just as much as they love Americans. That also is not love of country.

    please tell me im not the only one who caught this gem! :D

    tell me, friend, where in the bible or catholic doctrine you hold so dear does it say that americans deserve to be loved more than, say, israelis? or romans? i might be way off, but as i recall, jesus said something about loving EVERYONE.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    God ....are you there...forgiving my sins... without me?
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    soulsinging wrote:
    please tell me im not the only one who caught this gem! :D

    tell me, friend, where in the bible or catholic doctrine you hold so dear does it say that americans deserve to be loved more than, say, israelis? or romans? i might be way off, but as i recall, jesus said something about loving EVERYONE.


    for the same reason you like your personal best friend more then me. thats because you dont know me.

    same feelings apply, on a different level, when it comes to foreigners. I have more "love" for the people that grew up in my neighborhoods, in my area, in my country then I do for people who arent from my country.

    thats not to say I dont have some "love" for all people.

    dont take it so literal
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    jlew24asu wrote:
    for the same reason you like your personal best friend more then me. thats because you dont know me.

    same feelings apply, on a different level, when it comes to foreigners. I have more "love" for the people that grew up in my neighborhoods, in my area, in my country then I do for people who arent from my country.

    thats not to say I dont have some "love" for all people.

    dont take it so literal

    that's still bullshit man. i dont relate any more to someone from texas than i someone from canada or puerto rico. i dont know anyone in texas. what the fuck do i care? if my best friend was a serial murderer, would i turn a blind eye just becos i know him better than the victims? come on. i dont give my love based on ridiculous and arbitrary groupings like being from the same state. you have to earn my love and respect. you dont get it just for being born in the right region of the world.
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    soulsinging wrote:
    please tell me im not the only one who caught this gem! :D

    tell me, friend, where in the bible or catholic doctrine you hold so dear does it say that americans deserve to be loved more than, say, israelis? or romans? i might be way off, but as i recall, jesus said something about loving EVERYONE.

    I was referring to philia love, not agape love.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    I was referring to philia love, not agape love.

    what the hell difference does it make? do americans have greater inherent value that they automatically deserve more value than other human beings?
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    soulsinging wrote:
    that's still bullshit man. i dont relate any more to someone from texas than i someone from canada or puerto rico. i dont know anyone in texas. what the fuck do i care? if my best friend was a serial murderer, would i turn a blind eye just becos i know him better than the victims? come on. i dont give my love based on ridiculous and arbitrary groupings like being from the same state. you have to earn my love and respect. you dont get it just for being born in the right region of the world.
    This is exactly what is wrong with america. Americans used to have philia love for one another because they felt a stronger community with one another.

    We used to have shared experiences as Americans that no one else in the world had. Now people care more about the experiences of foreigners to the people living next door to them. THAT'S how a globalist company can ship American jobs away to a foreign country: because they don't give a shit about their nation - they care about money more.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    soulsinging wrote:
    what the hell difference does it make? do americans have greater inherent value that they automatically deserve more value than other human beings?

    You apparently don't know the definition of these different types of love.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agap%C4%93
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell

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