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are you against america

Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
edited July 2007 in A Moving Train
My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.
96 Randall's Island II
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
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Comments

  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    I'm Canadian, so I owe my life to America and thus am functionally an American. lol

    The American government blows goats.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    That's cool say what you want but comparing the US to Nazi Germany is...... ahh that just gets to me
    96 Randall's Island II
    98 CAA
    00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
    05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
    06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
    08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
    09 Phillie III
    10 MSG II
    13 Wrigley Field
    16 Phillie II
  • AhnimusAhnimus Posts: 10,560
    In terms of nationalism and propaganda it's very similar. Obviously the ideologies are different, but the mechanisms are in place.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Rhinocerous SurpriseRhinocerous Surprise Posts: 4,423
    I dunno. I don't think criticising the government can be seen as being "against your country", no matter how hyperbolic it can get. If nothing else, it stimulates healthy debates, and we all get the chance to learn something.

    Meanwhile, the American government does, indeed, blow goats.:D
    Smokey Robinson constantly looks like he's trying to act natural after being accused of farting.
  • tybirdtybird Posts: 17,388
    Ahnimus wrote:
    The American government blows goats.
    But they're our goats. :D;)
    All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

    What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

    I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

    I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.

    thanks for serving dude. I also am damn proud to be an american.
  • Medicated-GeniusMedicated-Genius Posts: 359
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

    What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

    I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

    I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.


    Ok, I know you asked for the opinion of Americans about this, but I thought I'd chuck in my two cents anyway. I think for the most part, and certainly me,it isn't a dislike of the country itself. The issues most people have is with the US government. You mention that speaking out against the government in some countries might mean imprisonment. The direction I see the US government taking is that prospect could become a reality over there. From what I understand, with the New Patriot Act and various changes to the constitution, people who are considered "enemy combatants" can be imprisoned without charge for who knows how long. Thats already happening. The scary thing about that, is who is deciding someone is an enemy combatant or not? What is the criteria for being labelled as such? Is it participating in demonstrations against government policy? Is it reading and informing oneself about US and World politics and events? Phone wire tapping? Internet usage monitoring? Which books one borrows from the Library? I mean, where do you draw the line.
    It's one thing to suspect someone of terrorism, arrest them and charge them with offenses, take it through the judicial system and prove they are indeed a terrorist. It's quite another to suspect someone, hold them in prison without charge indefinitely, and never be held accountable for that. So, when you speak about the freedom and ability to be able to speak out about your government, that very same freedom and ability is slowly being eroded away under the guise of "Anti terrorism" and "homeland security" and a whole number of other policies and amendments. All the while, this attitude of all of this being done in an effort to protect you, why should it matter if you have nothing to hide and all the rest, is forcing people to give up the freedom they so vehemently believe they have. You may not have anything to hide, but your interest and activity and knowledge of certain types of information could well be used against you, and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it. I think this is what most people have a problem with when they slam the US government, rather than the country itself or it's people.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

    What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

    I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

    I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.
    ...
    America is more than its politicians. This is a Representative Republic... not a Kingdom. If you do not oppose policies that your elected leaders (who work for you, not the other way around)... then, what does that make you? A patriot?
    And you are correct about the times right after the September 11, 2001 attacks. This was the most United I have ever seen our country. We also had most of the world... and definately our European and North American allies on our side. How did that all change... to get us into the worst Divide I have ever witnessed?
    Answer: Political leaders and policies.
    And you served... were you sworn to follow President (other than as your Commander In Chief of the Armed Forces) or to protect the Constitution of the United States... the rights granted to all Americans, therein? Would you fight and die for your president... or your Family, friends, neighbors and fellow citizens?
    Just because we believe our President is an asshole that has made some terrible, terrrible decisions... and has put us in horrible situations because of his policies doesn't make us the enemy. If you see us as the enemy... then, yeah... you are doing exactly what the Nazis did in 1939.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    America was truly great at one time before the govt fell all to shit. Those other sad folks in other oppressed countries never spoke out did anything about it until it was too late...now they are in it and have little to stand on.

    kinda where America is heading if it isn;t extremely careful and diligent

    There's a big difference between hating the Govt and the people themselves.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    many women and men did give their lives for the freedoms we would like to continue to enjoy. the problem is, the current administration is taking those freedoms away. the bigger problem is that nobody really seems to give a shit. the same people that believe so strongly against burning the flag have no problem trashing what that flag is supposed to stand for. who gives a shit if they burn a piece of cloth? if your problem with burning the flag is showing disrespect for what the flag stands for, then start acting like you give a shit about what it stands for. people in this country no longer value courage, freedom, liberty and justice. those values are a quaint pre-911 mindset. now we are supposed to live afraid, and unquestioning of whatever our government does. we are supposed to love it or leave it, but never attempt to better it, or you are unpatriotic. how can anyone who claims to love America support an administration that shits down the throat of almost every american principal and ideal? I thank you for your service to this country, but did you serve so that we can have a secret government? an executive branch unaccountable to anyone? torture? the removal of habius corpus? spying on american citizens, erosion of privacy? wars based on lies? when we see everything that makes our country great being flushed down the toilet, are we supposed to not say anything because men and women died for our right to shut up, trust the government, surrender our liberties and live in fear? the same people that claim to want a smaller government have no problem with that same government snooping through our library accounts? listening to our phone calls? sifting through our e-mail? sifting through our snail mail? making themselves above the law? destroying our world reputation, credibility, and standing? tell me? you are so proud to be an american... what are you proud of? what makes this country something to be proud of? chances are this administration has shit all over whatever your reasons are, and you make it sound anpatriotic to oppose what they are doing. i do love my country... it angers me that my country is in the hands of criminals who aim to erode the very things that make me proud of my country. and i am mad as hell that the population of my country is so afraid, they allow it to happen. so much for the land of the free and home of the brave. we are cowards.. and we prove it every day.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Dirtie Frank, don't worry about what they tell you. Most of them are proud to hate their country. They don't give a shit about patriotism or the USA.

    You're not hurting their feelings if you say they are against America. They like to hear that.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • hippiemomhippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.
    I don't think anyone is comparing the U.S. today with Nazi Germany at the height of it's powers. There are certain disconcerting similarities between this administration and the early Hitler administration, before it had begun it's quest for world domination and the extermination of an entire race of people. I don't think it's at all unpatriotic to point those things out .... on the contrary, what greater respect could we give those who sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis than to make damn sure our own country doesn't turn into a fascist empire?

    If someone is saying that we're just like Germany at the time they were rolling tanks through Paris and killing Jews by the millions .... well yeah, that's just silly.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Dirtie Frank, don't worry about what they tell you. Most of them are proud to hate their country. They don't give a shit about patriotism or the USA.

    You're not hurting their feelings if you say they are against America. They like to hear that.


    your right corporate whore... loving your country means never opposing or questioning anything they do.

    silly people thinking freedom and liberty are more important than supporting the president.
  • SathogwaSathogwa Posts: 227
    This seems very childish.

    You know what, I'm very thankful that by random fucking chance I won the equivalent of the cosmic lottery and was born a white male American. That said, when I critisize the governement I do so from a position of calling bullshit on a lot of the outright hypocracy and lies I see from a lot of our elected officials and a lot of so called "patriotic" Americans. So often it seems we can't live up to the wonderful ideals this country was founded on. Sadly, so many people are blinded by thier patriotism they can't or even WONT see these obvious descepancies. I think most people who you are calling to task in your posting ARE aware of this. To claim that they aren't aware that America is in better shape than Nazi Germany is childish and really stretching things.
    Sleep on horseback
    Far moon in a continuing dream
    Steam of roasting tea

    --Basho
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    We're nothing like Nazi Germany. Period.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • robbierobbie Posts: 883
    hippiemom wrote:
    I don't think anyone is comparing the U.S. today with Nazi Germany at the height of it's powers. There are certain disconcerting similarities between this administration and the early Hitler administration, before it had begun it's quest for world domination and the extermination of an entire race of people. I don't think it's at all unpatriotic to point those things out .... on the contrary, what greater respect could we give those who sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis than to make damn sure our own country doesn't turn into a fascist empire?

    If someone is saying that we're just like Germany at the time they were rolling tanks through Paris and killing Jews by the millions .... well yeah, that's just silly.


    obviously the current government of the united states is not comparable to nazi germany.... but the attitude of supporting your government no matter what atrocities they commit without question does explain how the population of germany allowed it to happen.
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Dirtie Frank, don't worry about what they tell you. Most of them are proud to hate their country. They don't give a shit about patriotism or the USA.

    You're not hurting their feelings if you say they are against America. They like to hear that.

    lol...in your fantasy perhaps...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    hippiemom wrote:
    I don't think anyone is comparing the U.S. today with Nazi Germany at the height of it's powers. There are certain disconcerting similarities between this administration and the early Hitler administration, before it had begun it's quest for world domination and the extermination of an entire race of people. I don't think it's at all unpatriotic to point those things out .... on the contrary, what greater respect could we give those who sacrificed their lives fighting the Nazis than to make damn sure our own country doesn't turn into a fascist empire?

    If someone is saying that we're just like Germany at the time they were rolling tanks through Paris and killing Jews by the millions .... well yeah, that's just silly.
    ...
    Exactly. It is the ideology, not the acts... The Deutchesland, Uber Alles mentality. America should stay as far away from that as possible.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • RolandTD20KdrummerRolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We're nothing like Nazi Germany. Period.

    You're right Bush is a big fat nothing...
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    robbie wrote:
    your right corporate whore... loving your country means never opposing or questioning anything they do.

    silly people thinking freedom and liberty are more important than supporting the president.

    Nah, that's not what this is about. Questioning the president is good and he didn't say that isn't patriotic. He said comparing us to shithole fascist countries isn't patriotic and I agree.

    Many people on this board don't love America for what it is, though, they love it for what they want it to become: a socialist land. Notice, not a "country," but a land. That's not love of country. Many people on this board love other people from other countries just as much as they love Americans. That also is not love of country. When you love your country, you love the people as though they are your family.

    They view American Exceptionalism as a foolish doctrine that causes us to be proud of nothing.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Let's address this basic premise from a different angle...
    ...
    It's 1939 and we are all citizens of Germany... who here would be hiding Jews in their attic and who would be pointing them out to the Brown Shirts?
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Medicated-GeniusMedicated-Genius Posts: 359
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Dirtie Frank, don't worry about what they tell you. Most of them are proud to hate their country. They don't give a shit about patriotism or the USA.

    You're not hurting their feelings if you say they are against America. They like to hear that.


    Is it possible for you to think outside the square for a moment. Perhaps try and put yourself in the position of a person who truly believes that their government is betraying everything they believe in. Even if you don't agree with it yourself, see that as their reality, and their attitudes towards what they believe their government is doing is exactly what is inspiring their sense of patriotism. Their reality is that the freedoms and liberties they hold so dear, are being stripped away, piece by piece, and it's their love of their country, their patriotism, that causes them to speak up about it.

    I can try and see it from your perspective. That your reality is that anyone who speaks up is unpatriotic and hates the USA, that they don't give a shit about it. I don't understand or agree with your truth, but I am willing to at least look at the fact thats where you are coming from. I hope you can do the same.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    That's cool say what you want but comparing the US to Nazi Germany is...... ahh that just gets to me

    I didn't compare the U.S to Nazi Germany. I compared the Bush administration to the Nazis.
  • jlew24asujlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I didn't compare the U.S to Nazi Germany. I compared the Bush administration to the Nazis.

    I was wonderin where you've been. no tix for me for the VIC show. lolla's almost here. carry on.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We're nothing like Nazi Germany. Period.

    I disagree. Period.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Medicated-Genius wrote:
    Is it possible for you to think outside the square for a moment. Perhaps try and put yourself in the position of a person who truly believes that their government is betraying everything they believe in. Even if you don't agree with it yourself, see that as their reality, and their attitudes towards what they believe their government is doing is exactly what is inspiring their sense of patriotism. Their reality is that the freedoms and liberties they hold so dear, are being stripped away, piece by piece, and it's their love of their country, their patriotism, that causes them to speak up about it.

    I can try and see it from your perspective. That your reality is that anyone who speaks up is unpatriotic and hates the USA, that they don't give a shit about it. I don't understand or agree with your truth, but I am willing to at least look at the fact thats where you are coming from. I hope you can do the same.

    We have less freedom today than we did 200 years ago. Am I going to love my country any less for that?

    Anyone who speaks up is patriotic and I've never said otherwise.

    People who don't like "our loss of liberty" really don't understand American history though. Even when we've lost our liberties (like when FDR interned the Japs) we could still remain proud of our nation. Being proud of one's nation has nothing to do with the type of government you have. Is it better if we have freedom? Yes. But pride in your country rests on having pride in one's people, not in one's government.

    The American people like their freedom and their national sovereignty. If you love your people, you don't hate what they love.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I was wonderin where you've been. no tix for me for the VIC show. lolla's almost here. carry on.

    My jealousy meter has gone into the red. After Wembley, then Copenhagen, and now this!! If PJ don't play Seoul this year then my head may implode.
  • soulsingingsoulsinging Posts: 13,202
    Dirtie_Frank wrote:
    My question is to all the Americans in this room, (sorry everyone you will see why). How many of you complain about the government about all of their policies, leaders, pretty much dislike the USA?

    What I am trying to get at is that even though you say its so bad here in the US you still have the ability to talk about it. If you were living in some other countries you would most likely be imprissoned for speaking agains t the leaders of your country. So before you go and say we live in this dictatorship that i here you speak of think about it.

    I seem to remeber a time right after September 11, 2001 that we were all united and proud of who we are.

    I served my country and I am damn proud to be an American. So before you go and bash it and compare the US to Nazi Germany think twice please because many men and women gave their life for the freedoms you should hold dear.

    we were all united. a disastrous course of foreign policy that added to the deaths america suffered on 9/11 has divided us. i very happy to be an american. that does not mean i agree with it's current direction or its leadership.

    it is also incredibly ironic that you point to free speech as a great thing about america and then ask us not to use it.
  • CorporateWhoreCorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    soulsinging wrote:
    we were all united. a disastrous course of foreign policy that added to the deaths america suffered on 9/11 has divided us. i very happy to be an american. that does not mean i agree with it's current direction or its leadership.

    it is also incredibly ironic that you point to free speech as a great thing about america and then ask us not to use it.

    Free speech should be used wisely.

    "But what is liberty without wisdom, and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils; for it is folly, vice, and madness, without tuition or restraint."
    -Edmund Burke
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Medicated-GeniusMedicated-Genius Posts: 359
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We have less freedom today than we did 200 years ago. Am I going to love my country any less for that?

    Anyone who speaks up is patriotic and I've never said otherwise.

    People who don't like "our loss of liberty" really don't understand American history though. Even when we've lost our liberties (like when FDR interned the Japs) we could still remain proud of our nation. Being proud of one's nation has nothing to do with the type of government you have. Is it better if we have freedom? Yes. But pride in your country rests on having pride in one's people, not in one's government.

    The American people like their freedom and their national sovereignty. If you love your people, you don't hate what they love.


    Ok, I guess I took you the wrong way. I interpreted your statements to mean that the act of being critical of government meant not giving a shit about patriotism and the USA. My bad.
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