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can you see both sides?
El_Kabong
Posts: 4,141
it seems the liberal side (as in what i mean by 'my side' no matter how much some ppl try to twist that statement) is the only one that can say both sides do bad things. we constantly say suicide bombing is wrong and we don't support hezbollah or hamas.
yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!
the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.
we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side
i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.
i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?
i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.
in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?
but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)
see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.
suicide bombings are wrong
anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.
so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.
so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.
yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!
the overwhelming majority of liberals here admit these actions are wrong and these groups are bad. yet i can only count 2 of the pro-israeli ppl who have stated they think they have gone too far. that's quite a gap.
we are constantly criticized for not condemning the actions of these groups (which we do) but i posted videos showing the IDF beating peaceful protestors then shooting taer gas into the ambulance that came to take them to the hospital! and there was no condemnation from that side
i posted pics of israeli children signing messages on bombs for arabs and all i get is someone posting a pic of an adult holding a shoe.
i post an article about israeli soldiers getting letters from israeli children filled w/ messages of hate and asking them to kill as many arabs as they can and other hateful things. to that there was silence from the other side. i hear all this talk about warping the minds of arab kids (and i agree certain groups do that) but why are you so silent on this?
i posted a video of the IDF throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children at a peaceful protest and then beating ppl and opening fire w/ their rifles...and there was nothing.
in fact all i got was told ot stop posting these things. ironic considering they've never told miller to stop his threads or illana to stop her hate fueled posts. so why silence this from being seen? news of suicide bombings are in the news all the time, these things are not, so why do you want to stop them from being seen?
but more importantly why won't you see that it's wrong and say it? like i said, so far i've only seen 2 ppl (zstillings and reborn) say they thought israel was going too far recently...where's the rest of you? instead you try to justify it and make silly conspiracies about satan is guiding the muslims and this is a war between god and satan (:rolleyes:)
see how easy it an be?
hezbollah are assholes, so is hamas, so is any group like that that preys on the plight of these ppl and use it for their fanatic aims.
suicide bombings are wrong
anything that inflicts harm or death upon an innocent person, especially women and kids is one of the worst things you can do.
so...come on. so far israel is killing at more than a 9:1 ratio. before that israel killed 5 palestinian kids for every 1 israeli child killed. an overwhelming number of palestinian kids live w/ mild-severe malnutrition b/c of the actions of israel.
so why can't you guys do that? why can't you separate the government from the ppl? the ppl are the ones suffering on both sides b/c of this shit.
standin above the crowd
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
Being politically centered myself, a majority of both liberals and conservatives are full of themselves.
I have no opinion on the middle east other than killing in God's name is a waste of beautiful lives. Neither side is right and neither side is wrong. Both are ignorant, acting on primitive human emotion.
is it? where are the cons condemning the IDF shooting tear gas into an ambulance that came to take arabs they beat to the hospital? where is the condemnation for the idf doing nothing while israeli kids threw rocks at arab kids and women? where is the condemnation for the idf throwing stun grenades into the middle of women and children?
perhaps you could point out those posts b/c i've yet to see them (other than from 2 ppl)
he had a voice that was strong and loud and
i swallowed his facade cos i'm so
eager to identify with
someone above the crowd
someone who seemed to feel the same
someone prepared to lead the way
I hope that figure of 2 includes me!
Rarely, if ever, have I seen you start a thread condemning Muslim extremist terrorist acts or any of the horrific behavior by them.
Ultimately, you throw in (almost seems like an afterthought, or a small disclaimer) a little one sentence comment about how you don't agree with their acts....followed by a "but" ..... and that's it.
Never does it contain the verocity, passion and disdain of your posts condemning Americans, Bush, Christians.
Your focus is never on them.
Monday 17 July 2006
Four anti-Israel demonstrations in Montreal this week
Lebanese, Palestinian, and Muslim organizations are planning four anti-Israel demonstrations in Montreal this week.
Tomorrow, local Lebanese student associations are calling to demonstrate against “aggression against Lebanon” on Dorchester Square.
Wednesday the Association des jeunes Libanais musulmans will be holding a solidarity chain featuring “an info-picket with images of the atrocities” on Place Jacques-Cartier in Old Montreal prior to the fireworks competition.
Solidarity with Palestinian Human Rights (SPHR) is planning a rally to reinforce the weekly PAJU Vigil on Friday in front of the Israeli Consulate. Various groups will remain on site on a 24-hour Vigil in prelude to Saturday’s “International Day of Action in solidarity with people in Lebanon and Gaza” convened by the Canadian Muslim Forum and to be held at the same location.
The groups and organizations coordinating these demonstrations are:
Association des jeunes libanais musulmans
Canadian Muslim Forum
Coalition against the Deportation of Palestinian Refugees
International Solidarity Movement Montreal
Members of the Lebanese Diaspora
Members of the Palestinian Diaspora
Palestinian And Jewish Unity (PAJU)
Parole Arabe
Presence musulmane Montréal (PMM)
Solidarity with Palestinian Human Rights (SPHR)
Tadamon! Montreal
Voices of Conscience
http://www.judeoscope.ca/breve.php3?id_breve=1996
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
And the conservatives are the only ones who understand you have to pick a side.
Right vs. Wrong.
Good vs. Evil.
Israel has tried to capitulate to these psychos and they still try to wipe them off the face of the Earth. Hezbollah started this, Israel has a right to put an end to it.
How do you think the American people would react if missiles were raining down on Buffalo from Toronto?
I think I missed your original message, perhaps ... What you said in this post made a good deal more sense to me than all the videoclips you've been putting up. Why? I don't know for sure, but I think it was because this post was a pretty clear articulation of your view that the suffering of people needs to be separated from government policy. Supporting the Israeli people does not mean supporting bombing Lebanon, and supporting the Palestinian people does not mean casting one's lot in with Hamas.
Those clips, though ... I took them more as soundbites that were intended to persuade me that only one side is guilty. "Shock and awe" in post form ... Of course I think that firing tear gas at an ambulance is a bad thing. But I took your numerous posts to be a condemnation of Israelis in general ... Your approach was as one-sided as miller's beautiful military comments ... Its hard to take that approach as anything else, at least in my perhaps narrow mind. I freely admit that I support the IDF's general stance that terrorism requires a firm response, although I think I've made it clear that there is a right way to go about doing things, and Lebanon ain't it. Maybe its that bias that makes me attack you while letting people like miller off more lightly. Maybe I'm guilty as charged in that regard ... Something to think about.
Attack Japan?
Beating everyone to it.
How stupid can this become? Lebanon situation is very different from current Canadian situation, and i'm under the impression that the USA wouldn't bomb the Pearson international airport, Toronto electrical facility and they wouldn't trigger a humanitarian crisis in Canada, i could be wrong, but i doubt they'd act like Israel are right now... wow...
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
I figure its OK to comment, Kabong, given that you started this thread, yeah?
Anyhow, this guy just nailed the source of my reaction to you the other day. I realize that maybe this is how people like me appear to you. "Yes, but ..." ... I don't know. It does seem like you have a severe bias, though, especially considering that this board probably slants more in your political direction than in mine. At least, some of your posts suggest such a bias.
there are way more conservatives on this board than that ... and they make their voices heard ... which is great ...
i will admit to being harder on the israeli side of this conflict because if we take away the missle attacks and the suicide bombings ... what are we left with? ... we are left with one segment of the population living with clean water and freedom and another side who have to go thru degrading check points on a daily basis just to get to work living in poverty ... i don't see it being fair at all and therefore my condemnation is not fair ...
i do believe many conservatives here want to believe that those of us on the left want the destruction of israel ... of course - it then allows them to support israel wholeheartedly ... but that is simply not the case - we want the same peace and freedoms for all ... not just one side ...
You wouldn't have...
I was one of those conservatives who supported Israeli actions. However, after absorbing the situation, I have to agree now that Israel has gone way too far.
Regardless if I think it is justified or not, their actions are not promoting a solution - only breeding more hatred and violence that will ultimately come back to them and the rest of the Western world.
Do I think the Israeli's have a right to do what they are doing? I sure do. But I think taking a different approach is the best way to solve this conflict.
The people I'm pointing the finger at now are the rest of the Western, modernized world and China (and yes the US too). If they could join together and throw all their weight into a unified solution - when would be on the road to peace.
The US gives 2.5 billion a year to Israel and 400 million to Lebanon. Now you tell me who the priority should be? A fledgling democracy or one of the most prosperous countries in the world. If Bush was true to his word about spreading democracy, it seems he would try a little harder to support Lebanon.
But that doesn't seem likely anytime soon. It completely baffles me why Israel and the US would want to destroy the infastructure and undermine one of the few democratic regimes in the entire Middle East (Lebanon).
I preach on here about how many of you liberals go too far in condeming the US, so much so that it seems as if you want to destroy our democratic society rather than fix it.
Much the same way, it doesn't seem like Israel wants to fix the Lebonese political structure - just destroy it. Who do they think is going to fill that Vacuum?
You'd all hug each other and weep like babies while the winner of American Idol sings the national anthem live on every t.v network and radio station, and then you'd praise God, George Bush, and moms apple pie, before blowing up the world in a nuclear mushroom cloud! Just a hunch!
Probably be happy. Get rid of the armpit of America.
*disclaimer: armpit of America is an American thing that I have read and heard. Sorry Cleveland!
Who, me??
Seriously though, and not wanting to go off on a tangent, but how democratic is your so-called democracy in the U.S? You have a choice of voting for two different shades of shit as far as I can make out. Maybe one turd is less harsh on the pallete than the other?
i wish you were right ... but they've been living like that for years now ... years ... with absolutely no hope of change ...
It's up to the Palestinians and the other Muslim countries in the region. They could rid themselves of the extremist population if they really wanted to. If they don't someone else will have to.
Oddly enough, I started a thread entitled " After One Week" which directly and exclusively addresses my desperate concerns for the innocent victims and the state of their health and resources.
The only one to respond was ...... evenflow?
but the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel Boorstin
Only a life lived for others is worth living.
~Albert Einstein
Could the reason for the "degrading checkpoints" be that Israel got tired of suicide bombers vaporizing random people?
I would guess that if the rest of the Middle East could actually wrap their mind around the thought of a peaceful coexistance with Israel and not want to wipe it off the map and stop the suicide bombings..ect...I would bet that Israel wouldn't need to put people through "degrading checkpoints."
So you think they're currently on their way to end that with the current actions? seriously?
-Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Well I wasn't calling you out specifically, but now I am.
Your comment about the dysfunction of our democracy is a thread unto itself and has nothing to do with our discussion here. What were you trying to accomplish with that?
It just makes me less receptive to your comments in the future... less likely to give you credibility.
If you don't think these people have tried..go invest in a history lesson...learn from the hundreds of Muslim deaths at the hands of radical Islam....like have I said research Algeria/Egypt....look at the American military in Iraq, the most powerful militray on the face of the planet cannot even suppress these groups...do you the majorty of Muslims over there support terrorist action....like really give me a break...
yeah ... but what came first?? ... its clear the oppression of the palestinians well before any suicide bombing took place ... any efforts by the int'l community to address these actions have constantly been thwarted by the americans ...
much of the middle east would just like to live on its own term but if you look at who has done the most meddling in the region you will see a familiar face ...
yet the other side rarely does this. in fact, if you post anything negative about israel you are called anti-semetic, anti-jew, that you hate israel...that you fail to see the other side...but it seems like the liberals are the only ones who see both sides!
Your ratio of "hezbollah condemnation" threads to "Israel condemnation" threads is WELL above 9:1. Maybe if you pretended to be a little more balanced both in your views and what YOU present to us, you wouldnt come off as redundant as you do. 15 paragraphs on what Israel does, and just saying "oh, and hezbollah's suicide bombings are wrong too" just doesnt come across as all that balanced or as viewing both sides. Rather, just show's you're aware there are 2 sides. Just my 2 cents.
And what do you say to the idiot who posted "allah bless hezbollah"?? Why was that post allowed to go unedited, but a thread toasting Israel for standing up for themselves was deleted by mods? Where's the fairness in that?
www.myspace.com/jensvad
Hence my words "..not wanting to go off on a tangent.."
As far as the second part of your sentence goes, it was relevant with regards to the post to which I responded.
This started happening before any suicide bombings. Kids would be shot down by IDF for throwing stones at Israeli settlers in palestine and IDF soldiers in palestine. Suicide bombings, although wrong, are a greater form of resistance than throwing stones at tanks. This you have to understand, palestine does not have a military, they get some aid from the arab world, but the arab world has been put on the "Terrorist List" for it. The real terrorists are Israel for stealing palestinian land and murdering hundreds of thousands of arabs and the United States for it's support of Israel and it's complacency in the genocide of arabs.
The rest of the world knows this, it's just in the western world that our view of the middle-east is false. We fail to recognize the true nature of things, due to the down-playing of Israeli occupation by the US media and government. The media constantly calls Israeli settlements in palestine "peaceful neighbourhoods" and calls Israel's military actions "defense". But if you turn on the BBC or MOSAIC television, you will see the true brutality of the Israeli occupation and the true nature of terrorism.
Google Video: Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land
This video explains my points exactly.
I condemn violence of all kinds, however, if faced with these circumstances I can't say I would react any differently.
Ah yes, it's always the fault of the U.S., I forgot.
Clear the the oppression the palestinians took place before any suicide bombings? What? You need to take a look at the history of the region because that is just plain inaccurate--when I hear things like this it really doesn't force me to take the argument very seriously. Arabs have been trying to wipe Israel off the map since its creation. Yes, the suicide bombings are a more recent phenomenom because the technology has become available. Before this tactic, it was basically a guerilla form of fighting. Since it's creation, Israel has has basically fought for survival--keep in mind it is surrounded by countries that would love to wipe it off the map. If the extremists would accept the existance of Israel then there would be no need for this violence-- Israel wouldn't be attacked because it is accepted and Israel wouldn't need to attack because it would no longer be threatened. I don't know why this is so difficult for some to understand. But the fact is that Israel is a nation surrounded by hostile enemies who will not be satisfied until it is wiped off the map so it is entitled to protect itself.