God vs Logic

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  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    So what we have is a concept that a god exists and well, after a few thousand years, we still have nothing to support that belief, so therefore it'd be rediculous to keep pursuing it. If we say pigs can fly, how many times do we chuck a pig off a building before we are convinced it's simply not true?

    It is your opinion that there is nothing to support the belief in God. Many will agree with you, many others will not. Those that see truth in a higher power might feel it would be ridiculous to NOT pursue it, ask questions, seek answers.

    Oh and chucking pigs off a building is just plain mean, Ahnimus ;)
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    El_Kabong wrote:
    “There is no such thing as great talent without great will-power.” – Honore de Balzac, 1799-1850


    "Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but talent instantly recognizes genius."

    Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    By "natural ability" you mean talent?

    Yep
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Talent: the natural endowments of a person

    Nope, sorry, I don't buy it

    So you don't believe in natural talent, correct? you don't feel that some are born with advanced abilities? What about a artist/painter. Would you enjoy an artist's work more if it was structured and painted by the 'rules' or would you prefer something that came straight from the heart or soul, from inspiration. I can totally see someone brushing up their skills by learning new techniques, but inspiration, imagination, and creativity has to be there as well. A 'natural' pulls from all of these things to create a moving masterpiece.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Yep



    So you don't believe in natural talent, correct? you don't feel that some are born with advanced abilities? What about a artist/painter. Would you enjoy an artist's work more if it was structured and painted by the 'rules' or would you prefer something that came straight from the heart or soul, from inspiration. I can totally see someone brushing up their skills by learning new techniques, but inspiration, imagination, and creativity has to be there as well. A 'natural' pulls from all of these things to create a moving masterpiece.

    lol, what you call a masterpiece I call a bunch of colors on a canvas.

    I don't feel the same way about art. But I get a kick out of artists who feel spiritually enlightend and don't have the time of day for someone like myself. Ooh holier than thou. By the way Mother Theresa had an obsession with suffering and Mahatma Ghandi was prejudice against blacks.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    baraka wrote:
    Yep



    So you don't believe in natural talent, correct? you don't feel that some are born with advanced abilities? What about a artist/painter. Would you enjoy an artist's work more if it was structured and painted by the 'rules' or would you prefer something that came straight from the heart or soul, from inspiration. I can totally see someone brushing up their skills by learning new techniques, but inspiration, imagination, and creativity has to be there as well. A 'natural' pulls from all of these things to create a moving masterpiece.


    I believe these talents to come from within.
    If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.

    Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
    -Oscar Wilde
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Ahnimus wrote:
    lol, what you call a masterpiece I call a bunch of colors on a canvas.

    I don't feel the same way about art. But I get a kick out of artists who feel spiritually enlightend and don't have the time of day for someone like myself. Ooh holier than thou. By the way Mother Theresa had an obsession with suffering and Mahatma Ghandi was prejudice against blacks.

    Not much of an art connoisseur are you, Ahnimus. You know you can appreciate the art and disregard the artist, if you like. You lost me with your last statement.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • baraka
    baraka Posts: 1,268
    Abookamongstthemany wrote:
    I believe these talents to come from within.

    I believe this to be the case as well.
    The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance,
    but the illusion of knowledge.
    ~Daniel Boorstin

    Only a life lived for others is worth living.
    ~Albert Einstein
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    Not much of an art connoisseur are you, Ahnimus. You know you can appreciate the art and disregard the artist, if you like. You lost me with your last statement.

    I can appreciate martial arts and some dance, music and of course some video productions. But I don't consider most painting to be art, usually just blobs of paint.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I don't believe we have a purpose. There isn't anything implying this to me.

    Then why do you even bother waking up every morning?

    And if you don't believe in talent, no matter how much I practiced, I could not throw a 95mph fastball and with the same arm motion, throw a 80 mph change up. No matter how much I practiced, I could never beat Tiger Woods.

    Again, I really don't know who put us here or what's really going on. I just know I'd go insane and feel guilty if I didn't do the most with what I was given.
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    Then why do you even bother waking up every morning?

    And if you don't believe in talent, no matter how much I practiced, I could not throw a 95mph fastball and with the same arm motion, throw a 80 mph change up. No matter how much I practiced, I could never beat Tiger Woods.

    Again, I really don't know who put us here or what's really going on. I just know I'd go insane and feel guilty if I didn't do the most with what I was given.

    Lol, I wake up in the morning because I am alive. Maybe one day I won't. Just because I don't feel I have purpose, doesn't mean I don't desire to live, at least for now.

    I think if you practiced enough you could throw a ball 95mph anyone can. The majority of the velocity is the result of your technique and not physical strength. It relies heavly on the speed at which the ball is thrown and the posture, it has really very little to do with the strength exerted. You can do a little experiment, light a candle stick and try to push it out with your throwing arm. Without every touching the candle pretend you are throwing a ball at it. You will find it quite difficult and most likely will succeed when you aren't trying.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Purple Hawk
    Purple Hawk Posts: 1,300
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Lol, I wake up in the morning because I am alive. Maybe one day I won't. Just because I don't feel I have purpose, doesn't mean I don't desire to live, at least for now.

    I think if you practiced enough you could throw a ball 95mph anyone can. The majority of the velocity is the result of your technique and not physical strength. It relies heavly on the speed at which the ball is thrown and the posture, it has really very little to do with the strength exerted. You can do a little experiment, light a candle stick and try to push it out with your throwing arm. Without every touching the candle pretend you are throwing a ball at it. You will find it quite difficult and most likely will succeed when you aren't trying.

    Well, why is Roy Holliday so freaking good while Josh Beckett just plain sucks. They've both practiced a lot! And how do you explain the difference between Tiger Woods and everyone else who has ever played golf?
    And you ask me what I want this year
    And I try to make this kind and clear
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
    Cuz I don't need boxes wrapped in strings
    And desire and love and empty things
    Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Purple Hawk wrote:
    Well, why is Roy Holliday so freaking good while Josh Beckett just plain sucks. They've both practiced a lot! And how do you explain the difference between Tiger Woods and everyone else who has ever played golf?

    I don't know who the first two are. But maybe it's because Tiger Woods is black and his super genes give him the unique talent to play golf.

    Or maybe he just understands more about the game than others. I took golf lessons when I was 15 because I really liked the game. The first time I hit the driving range I could drive in a straight line almost 300 yards, put I couldn't put worth shit.

    Jet Li is someone I"m more familiar with, I don't care much for sports. Jet Li is lightning fast and has said he plays Badminton to practice speed and gracefulness. He certainly wasn't born with his abilities and neither was Bruce Lee. But what they have in common is the understanding of the physics behind their art. I've read martial arts books and I've read physics books and they are the same. When they talk about the physics of striking it's about technique and speed. The vast majority of force is a direct result of the speed of a punch. It's something like speed^3 * mass / surface area. All of the martial arts literature I have read focuses on the best use of energy and form. Akido is literally using your opponents energy against himself, mostly by diverting it. In any form, it's all very methodical and scientific.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    baraka wrote:
    It is your opinion that there is nothing to support the belief in God. Many will agree with you, many others will not. Those that see truth in a higher power might feel it would be ridiculous to NOT pursue it, ask questions, seek answers.

    Oh and chucking pigs off a building is just plain mean, Ahnimus ;)


    Well, I believe 2 + 2 = 5 and therefore I must be at least 50% right.

    I would never chuck pigs off a building because I know they can't fly. Sorry for the analogy. Though I have tried to tie a cat up by it's feet and it proved very difficult.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    hey ahnimus... your an idiot to think there is no such thing as talent...here's an example if we can all be taught or educated to do anything, then go study up on running and do every exercise known to man and then run the 100m dash in 9.6 seconds... on wait, u never will be able to do that because you dont have the ability or talent to run that fast ever. you weren't born with it genetically... if you lift weights all the time u still will never look like arnold because you don't have is body or his perfect porportions that was his talent you will never be able to match that no matter how much you practice... same with dunking a basket ball some people just can't just no matter how much practice or exercise... thats why people do different things because they have talents... SO your saying if everyone tried hard enough they could play in the NFL... Can't wait to hear from ya on this one.... dumbass....
  • danika_bookworm
    danika_bookworm Posts: 162
    hippiemom wrote:
    Close ... you forgot to mention that you are not only to believe in it, but also do what it says!

    Ummm... I don't think it's the god who tells us to do what it says, but the prophets, seers, messengers and the philosophers tell people what to do (how to please god, how to get toheaven, etc.). They converse or "see" god and they relay the message to the people.

    that is to say that prophets are the olnly proof of a god's existence.
  • ruud
    ruud Posts: 34
    know1 wrote:
    Bingo! That's all I'm really saying. I'm not arguing either side as much as trying to point out the contradiction of placing inordinate relevance to one or the other.


    so if youre saying you know nothing and nonbelievers know nothing, then wouldnt others consider you not a believer? and the more important issue that frustrates non believers i believe is if people who believe say something like that (that they dont know more than nonbelievers know) than why do they choose to live their safe constricted happy bible morally fulfilled lives?

    Ill tell you why. To be safe.
    Given the choice i know very few people who if they have seen fact of heaven and hell would choose to directly to hell. so just to be sure. they go. well to tell you the truth whether we are wrong or right in the end id rather live my life knowing i did alll i could rather than 'give in to the temptation of doing things like eating pork' id rather live a complete life and if i was wrong or didnt have enough faith and there turned out ot be a God, wont he forgive me for not knowing any better, for my parents not teaching me better, and for giving us a world too hard to handle and to have any faith of any sort?
    please answer me this question without saying you Know Nothing...ive already figured that out.
    "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there'd be peace." John Lennon

    My god its been so long, never dreamed you'd return, but now here you are, and here i am.
  • surferdude
    surferdude Posts: 2,057
    ruud wrote:
    so if youre saying you know nothing and nonbelievers know nothing, then wouldnt others consider you not a believer? and the more important issue that frustrates non believers i believe is if people who believe say something like that (that they dont know more than nonbelievers know) than why do they choose to live their safe constricted happy bible morally fulfilled lives?

    Ill tell you why. To be safe.
    Given the choice i know very few people who if they have seen fact of heaven and hell would choose to directly to hell. so just to be sure. they go. well to tell you the truth whether we are wrong or right in the end id rather live my life knowing i did alll i could rather than 'give in to the temptation of doing things like eating pork' id rather live a complete life and if i was wrong or didnt have enough faith and there turned out ot be a God, wont he forgive me for not knowing any better, for my parents not teaching me better, and for giving us a world too hard to handle and to have any faith of any sort?
    please answer me this question without saying you Know Nothing...ive already figured that out.
    I'm pretty sure that Know1 was referring that people on both lack proof for their beiefs. Their beliefs is what they know, they just can't be proven. Much like I know I love my son, it's kind of hard to prove. But I live my life according to this unproven thing. You'd probably call me wrong for this.
    “One good thing about music,
    when it hits you, you feel to pain.
    So brutalize me with music.”
    ~ Bob Marley
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    cornnifer wrote:
    What about 'em? i'm glad you asked. Let's take a look at this shall we. You're absolutely right. There are many, many people who have no faith in God, yet do good things everyday. No question about that. Where do they get this moral compass? They just have it. Its just right. They avoid bad behaviors for the same reason. They're just wrong. There are some things that, quite simply, are right, and others, that are, obviously, wrong, and they, despite a complete lack of faith, know the difference. Whats more, many of these things are, basically, instinctual. You don't really have to teach anyone that to kill, for example, is wrong. Everyone deemed sane just understands that. In a court of law, if someone who has done something heinously bad, but, is determined to not have known what they were doing was wrong, they are deemed INSANE. Are you following me. The point is rational, sane, people are able to determine universally accepted rights and wrongs with or without spiritual faith or any religious affiliation. How? You see, i believe it is instlled in us devinely. This moral imperative is, IMO, solid philosophical evidence for the existence of God. So, when people argue that belief in God is illogical because one cannot SEE God, i have to beg to differ. You see, When i see people with absolutely no faith in God practicing moral behavior, just because it is right, I DO see God.
    ...
    Well, right off the bat, I think we need to qualify 'GOOD' as a relative term, not an absolute. A good soldier is one who effectively kills in order to preserve members who wear the same uniform. Killing is not defined as good or evil in this situation.
    As for a moral imperative as solid evidence... it may be in your realm, but not in the rest of us. Truth, in this case, is also relative... not absolute. Just because you believe it to be true, does not mean it exists. Many young children truely believe in Santa Claus... that is their relative truth. But, it is not the absolute truth. I see religion in the same light. Stories told to us becomes our truths. We have no means to prove or disprove and all we are left with is our faith.
    And as for seeing God as the only truth... I can't see electricity, but I know it exists. Same goes for air... even though we cannot see them, we know they exist. God is not so simple. I think we have created Him to answer those questions that have no answers and to comfort us from the absolute truth that we all experience our own birth, life and death... alone. I think Man's religions started off well meaning, but being of Man's creation, religion is made up of Man's flaw... fear, greed, hate.
    I think the world might be better off if we never created religion in the first place. Does anyone believe that God is so petty as to create something whose meaning is the worrship of Him... the creator? Yet... that is what religion teaches us. The term, 'God Fearing' is made up by religion... God loves us... why do we FEAR Him? I don't. Maybe if we just teach our kids to love people and to see us as curators of our common planet... that our time here is relatively short and we should not waste our time on hate and fear... then, maybe God would show Himself to us and we wouldn't have to try to use twisted logic to prove He exists.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Martoman
    Martoman Posts: 16
    I have an essay written on many of the famous arguments for and against the existence of God. Pm me if you are interested in a copy. Cheers!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    As a devout follower of my imaginary friend and my ludicrous beliefs. I insist everyone should head my words, as the allmighty only speaks to me, others would die from the sound of it's voice. The allmighty's real name is Ideetentee or ID10T, but shall be referred to as [size=+3]ൠ[/size]. Any that disobey these rediculous rules shall perish into dust. I hereby order under the rule of [size=+3]ൠ[/size] that all shall lay flat on their stomachs every tuesday morning and roll 3 times to their left, then cluck like a chicken 6 times. Else they die. In every city I shall place a big red button with the words "Do not press" if any shall press this button, they will bring death to all the world, and [size=+3]ൠ[/size] will wipe the map off the map. No one shall carry with them anything, as they may be potentially threatening to me and [size=+3]ൠ[/size]. More rules to follow as [size=+3]ൠ[/size] dictates them to me, and me alone.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire

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