Just how bad is the war going, really?

2

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  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    jlew24asu wrote:
    thats a cute analogy.

    "we" are saying get the resources into the project to get the mother fucker done?? really?? thats what you(we) are saying??

    im shocked. cuz thats not what you are saying at all. everyone demonized bush for sending in more troops and demonizing democrats for NOT cutting off funding.

    and yes, I think progress has been made. Iraq's not a 1969 camaro. ;)
    ...
    Okay, yeah... that's what I am saying. Either take this war seriously or get the Hell out. Half-assed isn't working. I think the 'surge' is also half-assed. This 'Whack-A-Mole' game ia a joke. I... ME... Cosmo says, put a mother fucking hammer at each hole to make sure that mole never pops up.
    ...
    You're right... Iraq is not a '69 Camaro (something I never said). Iraq is currently a piece of shit that is deterioriating and has been deterioriating for decades now. It CAN be great... but, painting a classroom isn't improving the country as a whole.
    So, let me dumb it down so maybe you will be able to understand it. I said it is LIKE a rusting Camaro... restore it or junk it. Not, literally the country of Iraq is a car because a car and a country are two completely different things.
    An 'analogy' is resemblence in particulars of things that are otherwise, unlike each other... to illustrate a simplification of a more complex, multi-faceted situation that brings the subject to simplier terms.
    So, you see... if you want to get Iraq up to speed (or make this rusting pile of old car parts back to roadworthiness), you either have to invest the resources (or you have to spend the money for parts and labor or your time to work on it) or get out (or junk the entire project). Fixing a school is a good thing (like buying a shiny new window crank is an improvement), but the overall situation in Iraq needs to be taken into consideration (a shiny window crank in a rusting hulk of metal doesn't raise the value of the car).
    ...
    I didn't know I had to be so literal with you... you used to seem to be able to handle concepts figuratively... what happened?
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    onelongsong wrote:
    it's funny how it's ok for the us to invade europe during it's occupation by a dictator to bring them freedom and restore democracy but it's not ok to do the same for dark skinned people.


    LMAO!!!
    what is not okay, is to invade a sovereign nation through subterfuge just cause we feel like it.
    the situation with europe and hitler is not comparable to saddam.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    onelongsong wrote:
    it's funny how it's ok for the us to invade europe during it's occupation by a dictator to bring them freedom and restore democracy but it's not ok to do the same for dark skinned people.

    The U.S joined the war after Pearl Harbour and after the Nazis had been defeated at Stalingrad. They didn't invade and occupy Europe, and steal our natural resources. They also didn't attack European civilians and torture and kill them in Abu Ghraib like jails, and drive along randomly shooting people at the side of our roads. Still, nice try.
  • El_Kabong
    El_Kabong Posts: 4,141
    onelongsong wrote:
    any venture entered without sufficient money or resources is bound to fail.


    hey, you go to war w/ the military you have, not the military you'd like to have!
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  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    El_Kabong wrote:
    hey, you go to war w/ the military you have, not the military you'd like to have!


    or here's a novel idea...you don't go to war AT ALL. :)
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  • Abookamongstthemany
    Abookamongstthemany Posts: 8,209
    catefrances wrote:
    or here's a novel idea...you don't go to war AT ALL. :)


    I like cate's idea. :)
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  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    catefrances wrote:
    or here's a novel idea...you don't go to war AT ALL. :)
    I like your idea too. although after 9/11 what choice did we have? (please no Iraq reference, I will agree)
  • binger
    binger Posts: 179
    According to Gen. Petraeus, in order to quell an insurgency and maintain order you need 1 soldier for every 40 in the population. That would put us at 500-600 thousand troops that need to be on the ground in Iraq. I don't think we are ever going to hit those numbers so it seems to me that we should leave. Otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.
    I want to point out that people who seem to have no power, whether working people, people of color, or women -- once they organize and protest and create movements -- have a voice no government can suppress. Howard Zinn
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I like your idea too. although after 9/11 what choice did we have? (please no Iraq reference, I will agree)

    the choice of finding WHO was responsible, not declaring war on an abstract concept. 9/11 was not an act of any one country, so who are you going go to war with? i am not going to say that 9/11 was justified because such an act can NEVER be justified, but the government of the united states of america act as though the attack came out of left field. twas not the first time these buildings were attacked, we all know this. they make out that they can not understand why such a horror was visited upon their people. either they are totally ignorant or they're bullshit artists covering their own arses. YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE. brute force is not always the best option and as we have seen in this case, it surely was not. terrorism has not decreased. we are not safer in the world today. and the US has to take some of the responsibility for the unstable nature of the world as it is today. there are other ways of getting the people you need to get without invading a country. ask the israelis, they know about such things. all that was asked of the US was to provide evidence that bin laden was responsible for 9/11 and he would be handed over. well truth be told i do not know about the intent behind such a request or whether it would have been as simple as that because... well the US decided not to go down that path. it was expected that their word be taken for fact. yes yes i know the man has claimed responsibility for the attacks, but we all know that sometimes people confess to crimes they didnt commit. and that is why irrefutable evidence is asked for. the US seems to blunder all the time when a just a little finesse would, in all probability, exact much better results. you don't always have to use the big stick. and as i said before, YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    jlew24asu wrote:
    I like your idea too. although after 9/11 what choice did we have? (please no Iraq reference, I will agree)

    Well, you could have used your intelligence services to apprehend those responsible for the crime. Bombing the crap out of two countries - one of which had nothing to do with it - was that the only solution?
  • jlew24asu
    jlew24asu Posts: 10,118
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Well, you could have used your intelligence services to apprehend those responsible for the crime. Bombing the crap out of two countries - one of which had nothing to do with it - was that the only solution?

    going to war with Afghanistan, yes. with Iraq, no.
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    The united states will ironically look back and see this time as one of the easiest times to take over the world.

    reason being the anti nuke scenario was essentially non existent... It doesn't get any easier than now... It really doesn't.

    neo-cons 50 years from now will look back and masturbate to this post...
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  • Bu2
    Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    Ask the parents, who gave their kids up to the military.
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  • Cover Me
    Cover Me Posts: 22
    Bu2 wrote:
    Ask the parents, who gave their kids up to the military.

    I will take that question. It sucks! Everybody talks something different about the war. I don't know what to believe.

    I thought the plan was to draw terrorist out of the Afghan Mountains into the cities of Iraq. Better to fight them there not here. I don't agree with that plan but does anyone know how that fight is going?
  • whidbey
    whidbey ATX Posts: 57
    Cover Me wrote:
    I will take that question. It sucks! Everybody talks something different about the war. I don't know what to believe.

    I thought the plan was to draw terrorist out of the Afghan Mountains into the cities of Iraq. Better to fight them there not here. I don't agree with that plan but does anyone know how that fight is going?

    About as well as the hunt for Bin Laden.

    Arab Militants Join fight in Afghanistan By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer
    Sun Jun 24, 2:30 PM ET

    JALALABAD, Afghanistan - Arab Islamic radicals who fled Afghanistan in the U.S.-led invasion are coming back, eager to support suicide bombers in their increasingly frequent and effective attacks on Western and Afghan forces.

    In both Iraq and Afghanistan, young militants feel that "Allah's victory seems to be drawing near" and see parallels with the stalemating of the Soviet army in Afghanistan in the 1980s and its ultimate withdrawal, said Michael Scheuer, a former CIA official who until 2004 headed a team that searched for Osama bin Laden.

    Al-Qaida is bringing back fighters it sent home after the post-9/11 invasion, he said. Al-Qaida leaders have written that "it would take three or four years to get the insurgency restarted. They seem to be pretty much on schedule and are bringing more fighters back into the theater," he said.

    Seth Jones, counterinsurgency expert at the U.S.-based Rand Corporation, said the influx is in the dozens or low hundreds, but is increasing, along with a fervor reminiscent of the 1980s, when Arabs such as the Saudi-born bin Laden flocked to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

    Attacks have surged. From Jan. 1 to May 31, 2006, 11 suicide attacks took 63 lives. In the same period of this year, 42 attacks killed 171 people, according to AP compiled statistics.
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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Cover Me wrote:
    I will take that question. It sucks! Everybody talks something different about the war. I don't know what to believe.

    I thought the plan was to draw terrorist out of the Afghan Mountains into the cities of Iraq. Better to fight them there not here. I don't agree with that plan but does anyone know how that fight is going?

    But Iraq is nowhere near Afghanistan.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Byrnzie wrote:
    But Iraq is nowhere near Afghanistan.


    it isn't? :rolleyes: :p well where the hell is afghanistan then? ;):D
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  • Cover Me
    Cover Me Posts: 22
    whidbey wrote:
    About as well as the hunt for Bin Laden.

    Arab Militants Join fight in Afghanistan By KATHY GANNON, Associated Press Writer
    Sun Jun 24, 2:30 PM ET

    JALALABAD, Afghanistan - Arab Islamic radicals who fled Afghanistan in the U.S.-led invasion are coming back, eager to support suicide bombers in their increasingly frequent and effective attacks on Western and Afghan forces.

    In both Iraq and Afghanistan, young militants feel that "Allah's victory seems to be drawing near" and see parallels with the stalemating of the Soviet army in Afghanistan in the 1980s and its ultimate withdrawal, said Michael Scheuer, a former CIA official who until 2004 headed a team that searched for Osama bin Laden.

    Al-Qaida is bringing back fighters it sent home after the post-9/11 invasion, he said. Al-Qaida leaders have written that "it would take three or four years to get the insurgency restarted. They seem to be pretty much on schedule and are bringing more fighters back into the theater," he said.

    Seth Jones, counterinsurgency expert at the U.S.-based Rand Corporation, said the influx is in the dozens or low hundreds, but is increasing, along with a fervor reminiscent of the 1980s, when Arabs such as the Saudi-born bin Laden flocked to Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.

    Attacks have surged. From Jan. 1 to May 31, 2006, 11 suicide attacks took 63 lives. In the same period of this year, 42 attacks killed 171 people, according to AP compiled statistics.

    So, we are making enemies faster then we can kill them?
  • Cover Me
    Cover Me Posts: 22
    Byrnzie wrote:
    But Iraq is nowhere near Afghanistan.

    Afghanistan is closer to Iraq then America, no?
  • Flannel Shirt
    Flannel Shirt Posts: 1,021
    We invaded a soverign country without just cause, without world support, who's neighbors happen to hate us more than life itself and then we stay there.

    We should have put all our time, effort, and manpower into Afghanistan. Thats the country that housed those that attached and killed 3,000 Americans on 9/11.

    You dont put Mr. Rodgers in charge of a prison gang. You put the biggest, baddest motherfucker who will do whatever it takes to keep people in line in charge. Some countries need Saddams.

    Not well thought out.
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