Do you believe in fate?

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  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Bu2 wrote:
    Shit happens, and be done with it?

    :D LMAO! Aaah but I did bubu! Pages ago!

    But I do want to understand a little better. :) I mean what kinda shit? ;)
    Did it "hit the fan"? :D Who's gonna clean it up? How do we even know it's shit? (You know apart from the smell!) That kinda thing! :p
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • Bu2
    Bu2 Posts: 1,693
    Jeanie wrote:
    :D LMAO! Aaah but I did bubu! Pages ago!

    But I do want to understand a little better. :) I mean what kinda shit? ;)
    Did it "hit the fan"? :D Who's gonna clean it up? How do we even know it's shit? (You know apart from the smell!) That kinda thing! :p

    in one-by-one dissections, and carefully and painstakingly remind you that what I say comes to me through enlightenment....

    What kinda shit? The shit that occurs every day, when we don't want it to. I mean, maybe we are really asking for it to, but we don't really want it to, but it occurs because we smoked too much weed last night, or had too many beers, or didn't eat a vegan turkey hamburger with the right salsa/ketchup alternative on top.

    Did it hit the fan? I don't know. It all depends on whether you use a fan or an air conditioner. And if you can afford either one, you're doing better than a lot of friends of mine, who still rely on palm leaves to cool themselves. And they all really want to invade your apartment -- oh, sorry, your SPACE -- because you at least have a cool place to hang out in, while the rest of humanity cools itself with palm leaves.

    How do we even know it's shit? We know it because of it's smell. If you need me to help you clarify this, you either need a new nose or at least a new outlook on life, which will help you understand that the disgusting stench underneath your nostrils that permeates strongly and looks a rather icky shade of brown, is indeed, without question, shit.
    Feels Good Inc.
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Call Off the Struggle

    Most people are in a constant state of struggle with themselves. Tremendously burdened by the past and in constant anticipation of the future, most human beings are rarely able to be fully present for more than very brief moments. The tremendous openness and intimacy that is required to be fully present is beyond most people's ability to sustain for more than a few moments before they habitually contract back into the familiar condition of separateness and struggle that so characterizes the human condition. This constant state of struggle manifests as a compulsive and addictive relationship to the movement of thought, emotion, and time.

    There is great reluctance to stop struggling because in the absence of struggle you suddenly begin to lose your boundaries and definitions of who you are. For many people this causes fear to arise as they experience the loss of their familiar sense of self. Struggling is how the ego-personality maintains its existence. When you cease to struggle, identification with the personality begins to break down and you become aware of your emptiness and lack of boundaries....

    As long as you remain identified with the personality, you will always be seeking security to the exclusion of the Truth, and will remain in a constant state of struggle. It is only when your love and desire for Truth outweigh the personality' s compulsive need for security that you can begin to stop struggling and be swept up into the arms of an ever-unfolding revelation of the Truth and Freedom of Being.

    - Adyashanti
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    angelica wrote:
    Call Off the Struggle

    Most people are in a constant state of struggle with themselves. Tremendously burdened by the past and in constant anticipation of the future, most human beings are rarely able to be fully present for more than very brief moments. The tremendous openness and intimacy that is required to be fully present is beyond most people's ability to sustain for more than a few moments before they habitually contract back into the familiar condition of separateness and struggle that so characterizes the human condition. This constant state of struggle manifests as a compulsive and addictive relationship to the movement of thought, emotion, and time.

    There is great reluctance to stop struggling because in the absence of struggle you suddenly begin to lose your boundaries and definitions of who you are. For many people this causes fear to arise as they experience the loss of their familiar sense of self. Struggling is how the ego-personality maintains its existence. When you cease to struggle, identification with the personality begins to break down and you become aware of your emptiness and lack of boundaries....

    As long as you remain identified with the personality, you will always be seeking security to the exclusion of the Truth, and will remain in a constant state of struggle. It is only when your love and desire for Truth outweigh the personality' s compulsive need for security that you can begin to stop struggling and be swept up into the arms of an ever-unfolding revelation of the Truth and Freedom of Being.

    - Adyashanti

    I think most people can take something from that. I can.

    I have a question, though. What does that have to do with fate?











    ****races off to another topic as fast as possible****

    :)
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  • decides2dream
    decides2dream Posts: 14,977
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think most people can take something from that. I can.

    I have a question, though. What does that have to do with fate?











    ****races off to another topic as fast as possible****

    :)


    if i believe in fate for nothing else...i do believe you were *fated* to make that post. ;)
    Stay with me...
    Let's just breathe...


    I am myself like you somehow


  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    Bu2 wrote:
    in one-by-one dissections, and carefully and painstakingly remind you that what I say comes to me through enlightenment....

    What kinda shit? The shit that occurs every day, when we don't want it to. I mean, maybe we are really asking for it to, but we don't really want it to, but it occurs because we smoked too much weed last night, or had too many beers, or didn't eat a vegan turkey hamburger with the right salsa/ketchup alternative on top.

    Did it hit the fan? I don't know. It all depends on whether you use a fan or an air conditioner. And if you can afford either one, you're doing better than a lot of friends of mine, who still rely on palm leaves to cool themselves. And they all really want to invade your apartment -- oh, sorry, your SPACE -- because you at least have a cool place to hang out in, while the rest of humanity cools itself with palm leaves.

    How do we even know it's shit? We know it because of it's smell. If you need me to help you clarify this, you either need a new nose or at least a new outlook on life, which will help you understand that the disgusting stench underneath your nostrils that permeates strongly and looks a rather icky shade of brown, is indeed, without question, shit.

    :D "I'm always in the shit, it's only the depth that varies" ;)
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    Jeanie wrote:
    :D "I'm always in the shit, it's only the depth that varies" ;)

    can't touch the bottom. in too deep. :)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    deadnothingbetter wrote:
    I don't. But I also don't have a reason to think, or much less conclude, otherwise.

    Not until you can prove to me that my choice is a cause, rather than a choice, then i'll start agreeing. Cause the way I'm seeing things, neither one of us knows for sure.But my choices haven't been identified as a cause yet. At least, not for me. Did you ever poke someone on the ear, or shoulder, and they say, "hey, what did you do that for?" And you respond, "no reason." Well, if you really thought harder, will you actually find a reason for it? Ok... maybe you had a crush on the person? I dunnoo... but that's not always the case.

    Everything inbetween our reality, or perception, and the realities of the universe are just speculations, theories, and sometimes faith/religion. Or tell me, what was the reason that I picked the drama film over the action film?

    Ok... prove that my choice is a cause.

    There isn't much to gain from studying the reasons why we choose action films over drama or any such thing. But I can postulate that it's relative to the stimulus. Men and Women differ neurologically, such that, women like emotionally stimulating entertainment more than men. I'm sure there are many reasons why you choose the films that you do. I'm certain you would find causes for your decisions if you looked. But I'm willing to bet you don't care too much about science. Therefor you wouldn't know a thing that affects your decisions.

    A girl I know (12) was diagnosed with ADHD at age 6 and perscribed Rispirital/Rispirtone. Which is an anti-psychotic with some serious permanent side-effects. Six years later she's uncontrollable and hallucinating. I think it is a result of the perscription. But maybe you'd like her auditory hallucinations to be a matter of choice.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • RolandTD20Kdrummer
    RolandTD20Kdrummer Posts: 13,066
    If someone could tell me where their thoughts actually come from...then I'll believe everything is an ultimate choice.

    However...nobody can do that.
    Progress is not made by everyone joining some new fad,
    and reveling in it's loyalty. It's made by forming coalitions
    over specific principles, goals, and policies.

    http://i36.tinypic.com/66j31x.jpg

    (\__/)
    ( o.O)
    (")_(")
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    RolandTD20Kdrummer wrote:
    If someone could tell me where their thoughts actually come from...then I'll believe everything is an ultimate choice.

    However...nobody can do that.

    I hate to spoil it, but if they could tell you where their thoughts actually come from, they would be proving that their thoughts are causal in nature.

    You know Roland, I know you've had an epiphany that has clarified this for you. I'd be interested to see if you ever turn 180 on this, you'd make an excellent debate partner having seen things my way. I'm frustrated with some debaters because they don't seem to grasp the concepts.

    Actually, I'm interested in debating some of the finer points with you. Such as indeterminism, and the plausibility of freedom emerging from complexity as Dan Dennett suggests. Just to get your thoughts on the topic.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I hate to spoil it, but if they could tell you where their thoughts actually come from, they would be proving that their thoughts are causal in nature.

    You know Roland, I know you've had an epiphany that has clarified this for you. I'd be interested to see if you ever turn 180 on this, you'd make an excellent debate partner having seen things my way. I'm frustrated with some debaters because they don't seem to grasp the concepts.

    Actually, I'm interested in debating some of the finer points with you. Such as indeterminism, and the plausibility of freedom emerging from complexity as Dan Dennett suggests. Just to get your thoughts on the topic.

    I think debating with you would be more enjoyable if you chose to enjoy the debate for what it is rather than for what it isn't.

    Just my two cents on the matter of debating those overthinking thoughts of yours.
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  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    I also want to ask Roland. When I realized that human free-will was an illusion and that the beginning as well as the end is determined, I felt emancipated, which one might think as contrary to the actual belief. I still feel like I have to talk about it openly to share my view in hope that others will also realize it. Do you feel like this at all?

    On a side-note, a girl-friend of mine has just started a sociology course. Her sociology professor on the first day of class stated "Free-will does not exist" and provided an explanation. It has to do with the fact that three different models accurately predict human behavior without invoking free-wills. I'll find out what those models are, I know one is called "milieu" or environment. I'm guessing the other two are on the order of things we've already suggested on this board. I don't imagine sociology views human cognition any differently than psychology.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    gue_barium wrote:
    I think debating with you would be more enjoyable if you chose to enjoy the debate for what it is rather than for what it isn't.

    Just my two cents on the matter of debating those overthinking thoughts of yours.

    Can you clarify your point?

    To me the debate is exactly what a debate should be, or atleast what I think it should be. That is an analysis of different points tossed back and forth in order to reach a logical conclusion. If I believe what I believe, I'm more likely to find reasons to believe then to not, therefor it's necessary to have a debate partner who disagrees in order to really tease apart the subject matter.

    For example, if you say "Indeterminism allows for free-will" you may have never thought "That would just make me an indeterminate machine, as opposed to a determinate machine and that would be no closer to having free-will." likewise, I may have never even considered indeterminism if I was too busy pushing my points and not considering the points of others, and that wouldn't be a debate.

    I am open to debate, and I thank Hippiemom for sending me Freedom Evolves by DCD, because I'm in disagreeance with Dennett on some points and it was productive for me to read his in-depth explanations and analyses. He's certainly challenged my view of Ben Libet's experiments, which happens to be the prevailing view. It seems Dennett's points have gone largely unaddressed by the philosophical community, which is a real shame, because I think he has some excellent points.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • searchlightsoul
    searchlightsoul Posts: 583
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Choice only seems free. It's not free from the laws of the universe.

    That seems to be where the misunderstanding is.

    Dude you are kind of obsessed with this idea that everything can be predicted. That you can find a set of equations to predict absolutely everything that will happen. While admire your passion this is kind of an out dated notion in science atleast (circa 1600's)....maybe thats why you are still fighting for it?
    Reality is that shit just happens. Obviously that isn't very comforting to many people on this board.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Can you clarify your point?

    To me the debate is exactly what a debate should be, or atleast what I think it should be. That is an analysis of different points tossed back and forth in order to reach a logical conclusion. If I believe what I believe, I'm more likely to find reasons to believe then to not, therefor it's necessary to have a debate partner who disagrees in order to really tease apart the subject matter.

    For example, if you say "Indeterminism allows for free-will" you may have never thought "That would just make me an indeterminate machine, as opposed to a determinate machine and that would be no closer to having free-will." likewise, I may have never even considered indeterminism if I was too busy pushing my points and not considering the points of others, and that wouldn't be a debate.

    I am open to debate, and I thank Hippiemom for sending me Freedom Evolves by DCD, because I'm in disagreeance with Dennett on some points and it was productive for me to read his in-depth explanations and analyses. He's certainly challenged my view of Ben Libet's experiments, which happens to be the prevailing view. It seems Dennett's points have gone largely unaddressed by the philosophical community, which is a real shame, because I think he has some excellent points.

    I would rather you construct your arguments around your own honest ideas than to always (and it seems like its always) citing this or that article of academia as thee talking point.
    Maybe that's just me, I dunno.
    Angelica likes to go point-for-point for you that way, but most of us won't.
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  • Jeanie
    Jeanie Posts: 9,446
    searchlightsoul wrote:
    ......Reality is that shit just happens. Obviously that isn't very comforting to many people on this board.


    Don't tell me that I'm actually right? :D

    Coz I'm no clearer than when I said that pages back, well except for the depth varying! ;)
    NOPE!!!

    *~You're IT Bert!~*

    Hold on to the thread
    The currents will shift
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    There isn't much to gain from studying the reasons why we choose action films over drama or any such thing. But I can postulate that it's relative to the stimulus. Men and Women differ neurologically, such that, women like emotionally stimulating entertainment more than men. I'm sure there are many reasons why you choose the films that you do. I'm certain you would find causes for your decisions if you looked. But I'm willing to bet you don't care too much about science. Therefor you wouldn't know a thing that affects your decisions.

    A girl I know (12) was diagnosed with ADHD at age 6 and perscribed Rispirital/Rispirtone. Which is an anti-psychotic with some serious permanent side-effects. Six years later she's uncontrollable and hallucinating. I think it is a result of the perscription. But maybe you'd like her auditory hallucinations to be a matter of choice.
    i agree, i'm sure her hallucinations and uncontrollable behavior is due to the medications(man, dude... if only there was someone like you working here where i work... you'd be of great help). but that's not what i'm talking about here. on your previous post you said that it's more likely that everything is caused by something, i.e. my choices (like choosing which film to watch). But can we honestly find any types of evidences by any scientific methods that can prove that my choice was caused by something?

    Honestly?

    I think it's way more complicated than that. In fact, I think it's so complicated that science can't even answer that for us.

    It's a debate that's almost as "undiscussable" as it is discussing the existence, or unexsitence, of a god. Let's go back with my choice of film. Why did I pick the drama over the action? Let's say I rented both films. Let's say that I enjoyed both films equally. But let's say that when I went home I had two choices: whether to play the drama film or the action film first. In a scenario like this it has nothing to do with:
    Men and Women differ neurologically, such that, women like emotionally stimulating entertainment more than men.

    In this case it just matters on what movie I want to watch first. And like you said, there could've been numerous reasons why I picked the drama over the action film. And simply put, the only mere reason was because I had to watch one film before the other, because obviously I can't watch both films at once. But why in this case did I pick the drama over the action? See what I mean?

    Is there a scientific explanation for it? If there is, I'd be more than fascinated to know.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    Ahnimus wrote:
    I'm frustrated with some debaters because they don't seem to grasp the concepts.
    exactly. concepts.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.
  • gue_barium
    gue_barium Posts: 5,515
    1. "Life is What You Make it"
    a. the language of "life"
    b. language is what you make it?
    2. The Fate of Language
    a. Fate is spoken-word
    b. Fate is thought
    3. Intelligence
    a. intelligence comes from the living
    b. brains
    c. ancient brains
    4. Hehee
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  • deadnothingbetter
    deadnothingbetter Posts: 2,202
    gue_barium wrote:
    1. "Life is What You Make it"
    a. the language of "life"
    b. language is what you make it?
    2. The Fate of Language
    a. Fate is spoken-word
    b. Fate is thought
    3. Intelligence
    a. intelligence comes from the living
    b. brains
    c. ancient brains
    4. Hehee
    i don't get it.
    This isn't the land of opportunity, it's the land of competition.

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