Iran: Before

Byrnzie · August 2006

bmc31 wrote:

Its not really worrying. Yes, everyone everywhere should travel abroad to enlighten themselves culturally. The fact is they don't. Not in America or anywhere else. Why does a higher percentage of Brits have passports? Because they need them to go on a beach holiday in Spain, or a Booze Cruise to France. Don't be fooled into thinking the majority of them are travelling the globe for spiritual enlightenment. America has as much geographic and climate variation as most Brits (or other people) are looking for for their holidays. Culture is a bit different, though it does vary massively as well. My point is just don't assume that owning a passport makes you 'well travelled'. It could just mean there're no sunny beaches in your own country...

I said nothing about spiritual enlightenment. And I said nothing about Brits having passports. I mentioned the fact that the majority of Americans never leave America. As far as Brits needing passports to visit beaches, why do so many Spanish, French, Italians, Australians, South Africans and New Zealanders also have passports and frequently travel the world? Doesn't that put paid to your argument?

Byrnzie · August 2006

Abuskedti wrote:

I agree, the more you travel, the more you understand that the differences are mostly cosmetic. We are all very similar in our habits and beliefs, and in our misconceptions about each other.

May aswell stay at home and watch t.v then.

Edit: But yes, you're right. Most people are very similar in more ways than we imagine. I think it helps to travel to realise that and shake off our prejudices and misconceptions.

rebornFixer · August 2006

I do like the idea of Iran's people rising up and rejecting extremism ... Building a real democracy. Will it ever happen without foreign intervention? I don't know. Foreign intervention did not work in Iraq.

rebornFixer · August 2006

I posted this link yesterday, and it got blown off ... Maybe this is a better venue.

http://www.iran.org/

hippiemom · August 2006

reborncareerist wrote:

I do like the idea of Iran's people rising up and rejecting extremism ... Building a real democracy. Will it ever happen without foreign intervention? I don't know. Foreign intervention did not work in Iraq.

Why not? They got rid of the shah, after all. As for building a real democracy ... what they choose to build is up to them.

rebornFixer · August 2006

hippiemom wrote:

Why not? They got rid of the shah, after all. As for building a real democracy ... what they choose to build is up to them.

Getting rid of the Shah was a step backward, actually. But whatever. I agree that they have to make the choice. The good news is, there are many organizations formed by Iranians that stand for progress and tolerance.

hippiemom · August 2006

reborncareerist wrote:

Getting rid of the Shah was a step backward, actually. But whatever. I agree that they have to make the choice. The good news is, there are many organizations formed by Iranians that stand for progress and tolerance.

I agree that uniting behind Ayatollah Khomeini was hardly what you'd call progressive, but the point was that they've overthrown their leaders in the past, they can do it again.

Byrnzie · August 2006

reborncareerist wrote:

The good news is, there are many organizations formed by Iranians that stand for progress and tolerance.

Shame the U.S government can't set an example by also standing for progress and tolerance, instead of barbarism - unilateral unlawful aggression - and intolerance.

Byrnzie · August 2006

icarus wrote:

most of the younger brits i know do most of their travelling to places like malia and ibiza to party, not to visit the acropolis in athens. i know plenty of brits that go to places like morocco, tunisia, turkey, and spain and all they do is stay on a tourist vacation resort and they think they're seeing and experiencing other cultures, when theyre realy just lounging by the pool with other brits/europeans. when they go to visit florida they're not there to view american culture, they're there to see disneyland.

on the subject of americans being ignorant of other cultures, i spent the last year in britain and visited a total of 5 european countries and i found that a lot of the people i met and knew were just as ignorant as americans, if not even more so. most people barely knew any states, thought some american cities were actually states, thought hawaii was a country, and made wide-ranging statements on americans when they actually knew very little about them. these same people also generally held the belief that americans were ignorant, probably because they were told so.

Obviously I was generalising. But if you live in America - where's Umass-Amhurst? - then you'll know that very few Americans travel abroad, which is unfortunate. Of course there are ignorant people everywhere, and I should know that England is largely made up of morons as -as are most places in the world as far as I can see - I speak to them all day at work and listen to them chatting shit on the commute to work 5 days a week. However, I think what I was getting at was that a far larger proportion of Europeans, and Antipodean's, appear to be more inclined to travel to foreign countries. As far as Europeans as a whole are concerned then the Brits probably stand out as being more insular than most other countries, and are guilty of all that you say above, and the fact that most Brits can only speak one language compared to most Europeans is another example of this. I'm not defending Brits because i'm more than aware of all of their/our faults. I was speaking of Americans because it is widely known that a tiny percentage ever get to see Europe and the wider world.
Maybe the Atlantic divide has something to do with it? Maybe there's not enough education or exposure in the U.S relating to the wider world. Perhaps you can tell me??

Byrnzie · August 2006

icarus wrote:

Umass-Amherst is in western Massachusetts. So its rougly halfway between New York City and Boston, but in a very rural area.

I think the main reason why Americans don't seem to venture abroad or to Europe as much boils down to cost. Brits can usually get cheap flights for around 50 pounds or so to anywhere in Europe. Americans on the other hand usually have to pay 500 dollars or more to travel to Europe. Because of this, many Americans are more inclined to travel within the US or to Mexico or Canada. For example, many British students travel to 'holiday' destinations in Greece and Spain, while many American students travel to holiday destinations in Mexico, like Cancun, or Montreal. I think its just a cultural thing, most Americans have never heard of Malia or Ibiza while every 15-23 year old Brit would know of them.

I think many more Americans are beginning to take holidays abroad, like to places in the Caribbean. Its still traditional for many families to vacation where their families have for decades. For example, in New England, a lot of families vacation in places like Cape Cod, Nantucket, Marthas Vineyard, or in Maine.

Travelling inside of Europe for Europeans is probably equivalent to Americans travelling within the US. Going to Europe or other places is sort of a big ordeal, whereas its a little trip for Brits to take a one hour plane trip to Paris.

I think I was very lucky to have taken a few holidays around America at an early age - paid for by my single mum who was by no means wealthy - and I got to see a lot of places - 14 cities the first time. It may also have something to do with the t.v over here that a lot of Europeans know quite a bit about American geography.
I can understand what you say about the cost factor, although you'd be amazed if you came to london at the amount of Australians here - seriously, there are thousands of the buggers! They practically own London pubs now. And the Australian dollar is worth less than the U.S dollar - I think the £'s worth about 4 times the Aussie dollar, compared to the £ being worth just under twice the U.S dollar.
As far as Americans knowing about, being exposed to the wider world on t.v, and in school e.t.c, what's the deal? A lot of people are of the impression that the majority of Americans take little interest in the rest of the world. Is that a fair assumption?

rebornFixer · August 2006

Byrnzie wrote:

Shame the U.S government can't set an example by also standing for progress and tolerance, instead of barbarism - unilateral unlawful aggression - and intolerance.

You forgot the "OH, SNAPP!!!!"

Ahnimus · August 2006

That is a big city, densly popoulated too.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=tehran+iran&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=35.697456,51.407776&spn=0.289409,0.694885&t=h&om=1

Byrnzie · September 2006

icarus wrote:

i loved mr. bean as a kid.

I can't imagine how he would go down in the States. I was always surprised to hear that Benny Hill was a big hit over there too. I suppose they're both quite similar.

OutOfBreath · September 2006

reborncareerist wrote:

I do like the idea of Iran's people rising up and rejecting extremism ... Building a real democracy. Will it ever happen without foreign intervention? I don't know. Foreign intervention did not work in Iraq.

You gotta remember that the last president was somewhat of a moderate and wanted reforms, that he couldn't run by the religious council, who has the real power. Before the last election, any candidate with progressive or moderate leaning with any chance of gathering votes were disallowed, hence, Ahmadinejad got elected. If elections in Iran were truly free, I think much more moderate and progressive candidates would get elected. I believe in the Iranian people, which from all accounts I've read are a lot more progressive and reasonable than their government.

What to do? I dunno. But a military attack isn't the way to go I think. Rather support the civil society in Iran. Strengthen their hand against the regime. Support candidates calling for reform, pressure Irani government to hold free elections. And stop threatening with war, as all examples in history shows that a country threatened with war unite unanimously behind whatever leader(s) they have.

Peace
Dan

Iran: Before

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