Interesting ariticle: There Is No God (and you know it)

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  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    angelica wrote:
    I do know athiests, who are dogmatically scientism oriented.

    There is an entire human developmental stage that encompasses those whose worldview is based on scientific achievement. These people consider themselves beyond the mythic/magic phases of traditional religion. According to Ken Wilber's book "A Theory of Everything", these individuals hold 50% of world power.

    who holds the rest? are you saying atheists hold half the world's power? i find that tough to believe...
  • sourdough
    sourdough Posts: 579
    soulsinging wrote:
    who holds the rest? are you saying atheists hold half the world's power? i find that tough to believe...
    I'm curious too. Poltitians are all religious (can't think of a single atheist). I would think out of my own uninformed, pull-it-out-of-my-ass estimate that at leat 90% of power comes from religious folk. If we're talking in terms of money than maybe, considering Gates and many billionaires are on the secular side.
  • JamMastaE
    JamMastaE Posts: 444
    soulsinging wrote:
    who holds the rest? are you saying atheists hold half the world's power? i find that tough to believe...


    Lucifarians have all the world power.

    go ahead,bring on the cries of conspiracy.

    and no,i don't believe in a reptile alien race.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain


    "I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
    Emiliano Zapata
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    sourdough wrote:
    I'm curious too. Poltitians are all religious (can't think of a single atheist). I would think out of my own uninformed, pull-it-out-of-my-ass estimate that at leat 90% of power comes from religious folk. If we're talking in terms of money than maybe, considering Gates and many billionaires are on the secular side.

    that's the only thing i could think of... some powerful business persons and maybe some scientists. while i have no doubt they have a lot of power and influence, i dunno if it's 50% a lot...
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    JamMastaE wrote:
    Lucifarians have all the world power.

    go ahead,bring on the cries of conspiracy.

    and no,i don't believe in a reptile alien race.

    what's a lucifarian?
  • JamMastaE
    JamMastaE Posts: 444
    soulsinging wrote:
    what's a lucifarian?


    satanist.
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain


    "I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
    Emiliano Zapata
  • hippiemom
    hippiemom Posts: 3,326
    Kann wrote:
    Fine, but if you believe in the absence of a higher power, what is left to make the universe run if not science? You (me too) have to have faith in science, and that is worshipping to me.
    Science isn't making the universe run. Science merely attempts to explain the natural forces that make it run.
    "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." ~ MLK, 1963
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    JamMastaE wrote:
    satanist.

    and you think they hold all the world's power or you were just messing? i dont think they quite have the numbers to have the world under their thumb.
  • JamMastaE
    JamMastaE Posts: 444
    soulsinging wrote:
    and you think they hold all the world's power or you were just messing? i dont think they quite have the numbers to have the world under their thumb.

    crazy?hell yes. but really look into this whole heartedly and you WILL be disturbed.


    http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bohemian_grove.html
    "In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot". Mark Twain


    "I would rather die on my feet than to live on my knees."
    Emiliano Zapata
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    Atheists would love to think atheism is the default position for mankind. To them, atheism is where we started and then God was fabricated to explain things that we simply cannot understand. Although, the atheist cannot answer the ever-present question: for what purpose is mankind here?

    I have heard the original poster's argument before: it is called "The Problem of Evil." It says, "If babies can be burned alive in house fires and God does nothing, then he must either be unable to help the baby or he must be evil."

    It is problematic at best and I don't think there is any reason to believe it. The atheist would say, "Why does he let that baby burn alive when God is omnipotent and omniscient?" In this case, the atheist ignores the granting of free will by God as a supreme act of goodness. But, he too easily ignores it.

    Every time a baby is saved from being burned alive or someone chooses NOT to kill another person, this is a free will act of good. Of course, some people can die by sheer "acts of God." But, if God were to save these people, he would be taking back his gift of free will to mankind. Would it be "evil" if God took that away? Perhaps. When you allow someone to choose between good and evil and they choose good, that is a supreme act of goodness.

    The essential problem with the "problem of evil" argument is this: how do we know we live in a world with "too much" evil? We could live in a world with more evil, where people were born only to be burned alive as babies. The problem with the argument is that the level of evil subscribed to is arbitrary. I could think of worlds with far more evil - maybe God keeps us from having that kind of evil? In the end, the "problem of evil" raises to many undefinable limits on evil and therefore, it is a false method for disproving God's existence.
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • Collin
    Collin Posts: 4,931
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Atheists would love to think atheism is the default position for mankind. To them, atheism is where we started and then God was fabricated to explain things that we simply cannot understand. Although, the atheist cannot answer the ever-present question: for what purpose is mankind here?

    I'm an atheist and I can answer that question, I think many atheists can.
    THANK YOU, LOSTDAWG!


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  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    soulsinging wrote:
    who holds the rest? are you saying atheists hold half the world's power? i find that tough to believe...
    No. It's not about athiest/non-athiests. It's about different natural human developmental stages. First, consider that this is worldwide. Also keep in mind that those who hold the power, for example the science-oriented are only 30% of the world's population, even though they hold 50% of the power. Some stages of awareness, and their percentages are:

    Mythic order: ie: fundamentalists and people who follow strict codes of right/wrong. In this group people follow strict codes and are controlled by guilt. They are 40% of the population, and 30% of the power.

    Ecologically, sensitivity, and pluralistically oriented: Cherish earth, against hierarchies, into lateral bonding: 10% of the world population; 15% of the power. (20-25% of the American population)
    (Source: Ken Wilber's "A Theory of Everything")

    Science has permeated much of the power structures world-wide. And for example, we have groups that are not developmentally avanced enough to be able to handle certain science awareness. And yet can get their hands on what science has brough forth, such as nuclear weaponry. Which can be a big problem.

    In general, though, these basic groups frown upon the world-view of each other. Which brings me back to the point that there are some strongly dogmatic science people, who are assured of the complete rightness of their worldview and cannot understand or accept other views....even on this board. ;)
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    I, for one, think it's ignorant and close minded for either side of the argument to completely buy into the fact that they could not be wrong. Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, but neither case will be proven to an individual until they die (unless God just came out and said WAZZZUUPPPP). My argument against trying to prove the lack of existance of a God based on violence and things that happen on earth completely leaves out the possibility that there is something unfathomably better or worse than anything that could be experienced during our life...........Who knows what's really going on. I believe that for whatever reason, our lives are important..............but even this whole planet is only about extrordonary as a dust particle (and even that's exadurating the massiveness) in proportion to the universe...................How could anyone attempt to say that they can answer such a question about existance? Believe in what you believe and let others believe in what they believe................but never go so far as to say that you really "know" anything.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
  • sponger
    sponger Posts: 3,159
    Kann wrote:
    Fine, but if you believe in the absence of a higher power, what is left to make the universe run if not science? You (me too) have to have faith in science, and that is worshipping to me.

    But, it isn't worship. It's curiosity. We have a curiosity for what makes things work, and we appreciate the knowledge that said curiosity brings through understanding. But, by no means do we "worship" it.

    Worship is the act of lowering one's self to another thing through overwhelming sense of admiration. I don't admire science.

    Consider this: If god was not "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" and whose only begotten son performed "miracles", the feelings of "worship" that christians have for their religion would cease to exist.

    There is nothing "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" about science. It merely explains the way things are in their natural state. And to say that we worship science is to say that we worship the way things are. That's why an atheist's appreciation for science is not an act of worship.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • sponger
    sponger Posts: 3,159
    To me, atheism is just a quest for a better understanding of morality. I don't sit around and try to disprove god. I don't say to myself, "If god is this, then this should be that..."

    What I keep in mind is that if god exists, then he is bound by no laws of reality as we know it, so it's redundant to make an effort to define his existence in terms of what we think a god should be.

    What keeps me leaning towards the side of atheism is the knowledge that we as natural human beings are born with an appreciation for life that goes beyond what religion would typically have us follow as "guidelines" for a moral lifestyle.

    I see people who have no reverence for any god of any kind while still carrying themselves as human beings, yet are cast down by religion as being "morally deprived" or devoid of "belief."

    And I see why people turn to religion. And, to me, that is the key to unlocking atheism. It isn't a quest to bring down religion. It's a desire to understand my fellow man's desire to be influenced by it.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    chiefojibwa wrote:
    yes but you have to ask yourself, does there have to be a reason we are here?

    i think we're just animals. and we rot in the ground when we're dead. and that's it. so be it.

    There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?

    I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • sponger
    sponger Posts: 3,159
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    Why do we establish order in our world?

    We establish order out of our innate desire for self-preservation.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • CorporateWhore
    CorporateWhore Posts: 1,890
    sponger wrote:
    We establish order out of our innate desire for self-preservation.

    We establish a far higher level of order than any other animal, and they too have an innate desire for self-preservation. Why is our level so high?
    All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
    -Enoch Powell
  • sponger
    sponger Posts: 3,159
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    We establish a far higher level of order than any other animal, and they too have an innate desire for self-preservation. Why is our level so high?

    Because our needs are more complex and elaborate than that of a pack of animals. Our system of order accommodates the complexity of our existence.

    When you get hungry, you throw a pizza in the oven. The pizza is made from ingredients that were derived from a complex system of preparation. The oven is fire, which is something animals still cannot create.

    Our minds are fueled by instincts, but those instincts are channeled through a complex intellect.
    reigning champion

    http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
  • soulsinging
    soulsinging Posts: 13,202
    CorporateWhore wrote:
    There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?

    I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?

    this is pretty poor logic my man. you cannot prove god's existence by games like this. you cannot prove god doesn't exist by the games about evil that atheists like to play either. both propositions are equally reasonable. there is nothing foolish about faith. nor is there anything foolish about lack of faith. the only foolishness in this debate is a person on either side claiming an absolute grasp of the truth.

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