Atheists would love to think atheism is the default position for mankind. To them, atheism is where we started and then God was fabricated to explain things that we simply cannot understand. Although, the atheist cannot answer the ever-present question: for what purpose is mankind here?
I'm an atheist and I can answer that question, I think many atheists can.
who holds the rest? are you saying atheists hold half the world's power? i find that tough to believe...
No. It's not about athiest/non-athiests. It's about different natural human developmental stages. First, consider that this is worldwide. Also keep in mind that those who hold the power, for example the science-oriented are only 30% of the world's population, even though they hold 50% of the power. Some stages of awareness, and their percentages are:
Mythic order: ie: fundamentalists and people who follow strict codes of right/wrong. In this group people follow strict codes and are controlled by guilt. They are 40% of the population, and 30% of the power.
Ecologically, sensitivity, and pluralistically oriented: Cherish earth, against hierarchies, into lateral bonding: 10% of the world population; 15% of the power. (20-25% of the American population)
(Source: Ken Wilber's "A Theory of Everything")
Science has permeated much of the power structures world-wide. And for example, we have groups that are not developmentally avanced enough to be able to handle certain science awareness. And yet can get their hands on what science has brough forth, such as nuclear weaponry. Which can be a big problem.
In general, though, these basic groups frown upon the world-view of each other. Which brings me back to the point that there are some strongly dogmatic science people, who are assured of the complete rightness of their worldview and cannot understand or accept other views....even on this board.
"The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr
I, for one, think it's ignorant and close minded for either side of the argument to completely buy into the fact that they could not be wrong. Maybe there is a God, maybe there isn't, but neither case will be proven to an individual until they die (unless God just came out and said WAZZZUUPPPP). My argument against trying to prove the lack of existance of a God based on violence and things that happen on earth completely leaves out the possibility that there is something unfathomably better or worse than anything that could be experienced during our life...........Who knows what's really going on. I believe that for whatever reason, our lives are important..............but even this whole planet is only about extrordonary as a dust particle (and even that's exadurating the massiveness) in proportion to the universe...................How could anyone attempt to say that they can answer such a question about existance? Believe in what you believe and let others believe in what they believe................but never go so far as to say that you really "know" anything.
Fine, but if you believe in the absence of a higher power, what is left to make the universe run if not science? You (me too) have to have faith in science, and that is worshipping to me.
But, it isn't worship. It's curiosity. We have a curiosity for what makes things work, and we appreciate the knowledge that said curiosity brings through understanding. But, by no means do we "worship" it.
Worship is the act of lowering one's self to another thing through overwhelming sense of admiration. I don't admire science.
Consider this: If god was not "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" and whose only begotten son performed "miracles", the feelings of "worship" that christians have for their religion would cease to exist.
There is nothing "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" about science. It merely explains the way things are in their natural state. And to say that we worship science is to say that we worship the way things are. That's why an atheist's appreciation for science is not an act of worship.
To me, atheism is just a quest for a better understanding of morality. I don't sit around and try to disprove god. I don't say to myself, "If god is this, then this should be that..."
What I keep in mind is that if god exists, then he is bound by no laws of reality as we know it, so it's redundant to make an effort to define his existence in terms of what we think a god should be.
What keeps me leaning towards the side of atheism is the knowledge that we as natural human beings are born with an appreciation for life that goes beyond what religion would typically have us follow as "guidelines" for a moral lifestyle.
I see people who have no reverence for any god of any kind while still carrying themselves as human beings, yet are cast down by religion as being "morally deprived" or devoid of "belief."
And I see why people turn to religion. And, to me, that is the key to unlocking atheism. It isn't a quest to bring down religion. It's a desire to understand my fellow man's desire to be influenced by it.
yes but you have to ask yourself, does there have to be a reason we are here?
i think we're just animals. and we rot in the ground when we're dead. and that's it. so be it.
There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?
I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
We establish a far higher level of order than any other animal, and they too have an innate desire for self-preservation. Why is our level so high?
Because our needs are more complex and elaborate than that of a pack of animals. Our system of order accommodates the complexity of our existence.
When you get hungry, you throw a pizza in the oven. The pizza is made from ingredients that were derived from a complex system of preparation. The oven is fire, which is something animals still cannot create.
Our minds are fueled by instincts, but those instincts are channeled through a complex intellect.
There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?
I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?
this is pretty poor logic my man. you cannot prove god's existence by games like this. you cannot prove god doesn't exist by the games about evil that atheists like to play either. both propositions are equally reasonable. there is nothing foolish about faith. nor is there anything foolish about lack of faith. the only foolishness in this debate is a person on either side claiming an absolute grasp of the truth.
It may be disagreeable with one, but it's fairly well-written.
it's not written well. The whole arguement is "if God exists then he's either a mean god or he just doesn't care because people die and he does nothing about it" when the whole point of religion is that people ARE SUPPOSE to die.
it's not written well. The whole arguement is "if God exists then he's either a mean god or he just doesn't care because people die and he does nothing about it" when the whole point of religion is that people ARE SUPPOSE to die.
it's not written well. The whole arguement is "if God exists then he's either a mean god or he just doesn't care because people die and he does nothing about it" when the whole point of religion is that people ARE SUPPOSE to die.
I don't think that is the point.
It is a fact that people die. There's no getting around that, not even Jesus. That is closer to the point.
I caught the end of the Super Bowl. the Colts keep thanking 'God' for their victory. what a kind of ridiculous God does someone have to believe in to imagine that this God cares about the outcome of a football game?
I caught the end of the Super Bowl. the Colts keep thanking 'God' for their victory. what a kind of ridiculous God does someone have to believe in to imagine that this God cares about the outcome of a football game?
dude football players are very religious people. if u havent figured that out by now, your fucking clueless
Ron: I just don't feel like going out tonight
Sammi: Wanna just break up?
I caught the end of the Super Bowl. the Colts keep thanking 'God' for their victory. what a kind of ridiculous God does someone have to believe in to imagine that this God cares about the outcome of a football game?
The pulpit of now (i.e., as the winning super bowl coach), with media is far different than reality. Media, and money has become reality for the world in so many ways. The survivors seek it, just to bring about a balance, the rulers of those things propogate the false god.
The pulpit of now (i.e., as the winning super bowl coach), with media is far different than reality. Media, and money has become reality for the world in so many ways. The survivors seek it, just to bring about a balance, the rulers of those things propogate the false god.
I caught the end of the Super Bowl. the Colts keep thanking 'God' for their victory. what a kind of ridiculous God does someone have to believe in to imagine that this God cares about the outcome of a football game?
It's necessary to win the approval of the moral majority. It makes them appear humble while at the same time giving them credibilty with the club known as judeo-christianity.
It doesn't matter if you're male, female, or confused; black, white, brown, red, green, yellow; gay, lesbian; redneck cop, stoned; ugly; military style, doggy style; fat, rich or poor; vegetarian or cannibal; bum, hippie, virgin; famous or drunk-you're either an asshole or you're not!
This is something that bothers me with atheist. They despise other people for their beliefs but still promote their own.
I believe atheism is another form of religion. They have dogma, something to worship (humanity and science) and extremists.
Why keep on bashing believers when you could just let them live their life like they feel? "If you hate something, don't you do it to".
I don't despise anyone for their beliefs, nor do I promote my own beliefs. If someone wants to discuss my views and their views, I'm all for it. I'm not proselytizing, I'm debating.
Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?
I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?
We establish order in our world because it successfully contributes to our survival.
And I don't understand why it should logically follow that because we establish order someone else must have ordered our existence. Care to elaborate?
And going back to the article obviously it dosn't prove that God dosn't exist - proof of that dosn't exist.
No. It's not about athiest/non-athiests. It's about different natural human developmental stages. First, consider that this is worldwide. Also keep in mind that those who hold the power, for example the science-oriented are only 30% of the world's population, even though they hold 50% of the power. Some stages of awareness, and their percentages are:
Mythic order: ie: fundamentalists and people who follow strict codes of right/wrong. In this group people follow strict codes and are controlled by guilt. They are 40% of the population, and 30% of the power.
Ecologically, sensitivity, and pluralistically oriented: Cherish earth, against hierarchies, into lateral bonding: 10% of the world population; 15% of the power. (20-25% of the American population)
(Source: Ken Wilber's "A Theory of Everything")
Science has permeated much of the power structures world-wide. And for example, we have groups that are not developmentally avanced enough to be able to handle certain science awareness. And yet can get their hands on what science has brough forth, such as nuclear weaponry. Which can be a big problem.
In general, though, these basic groups frown upon the world-view of each other. Which brings me back to the point that there are some strongly dogmatic science people, who are assured of the complete rightness of their worldview and cannot understand or accept other views....even on this board.
i was gonna say 'i see' but i dont, hehe. maybe i need to read the book. your whole levels and stages of developmental awareness has never sat well with me though...
Because our needs are more complex and elaborate than that of a pack of animals. Our system of order accommodates the complexity of our existence.
When you get hungry, you throw a pizza in the oven. The pizza is made from ingredients that were derived from a complex system of preparation. The oven is fire, which is something animals still cannot create.
Our minds are fueled by instincts, but those instincts are channeled through a complex intellect.
I don't have more complex "needs" than a pack of animals. I need food, water, and sex.
All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell
Comments
I'm an atheist and I can answer that question, I think many atheists can.
naděje umírá poslední
Mythic order: ie: fundamentalists and people who follow strict codes of right/wrong. In this group people follow strict codes and are controlled by guilt. They are 40% of the population, and 30% of the power.
Ecologically, sensitivity, and pluralistically oriented: Cherish earth, against hierarchies, into lateral bonding: 10% of the world population; 15% of the power. (20-25% of the American population)
(Source: Ken Wilber's "A Theory of Everything")
Science has permeated much of the power structures world-wide. And for example, we have groups that are not developmentally avanced enough to be able to handle certain science awareness. And yet can get their hands on what science has brough forth, such as nuclear weaponry. Which can be a big problem.
In general, though, these basic groups frown upon the world-view of each other. Which brings me back to the point that there are some strongly dogmatic science people, who are assured of the complete rightness of their worldview and cannot understand or accept other views....even on this board.
http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta
Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
But, it isn't worship. It's curiosity. We have a curiosity for what makes things work, and we appreciate the knowledge that said curiosity brings through understanding. But, by no means do we "worship" it.
Worship is the act of lowering one's self to another thing through overwhelming sense of admiration. I don't admire science.
Consider this: If god was not "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" and whose only begotten son performed "miracles", the feelings of "worship" that christians have for their religion would cease to exist.
There is nothing "all-powerful" and "all-knowing" about science. It merely explains the way things are in their natural state. And to say that we worship science is to say that we worship the way things are. That's why an atheist's appreciation for science is not an act of worship.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
What I keep in mind is that if god exists, then he is bound by no laws of reality as we know it, so it's redundant to make an effort to define his existence in terms of what we think a god should be.
What keeps me leaning towards the side of atheism is the knowledge that we as natural human beings are born with an appreciation for life that goes beyond what religion would typically have us follow as "guidelines" for a moral lifestyle.
I see people who have no reverence for any god of any kind while still carrying themselves as human beings, yet are cast down by religion as being "morally deprived" or devoid of "belief."
And I see why people turn to religion. And, to me, that is the key to unlocking atheism. It isn't a quest to bring down religion. It's a desire to understand my fellow man's desire to be influenced by it.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
There is a purpose for individual acts. If there is a purpose for individual acts, there must be a purpose for all individual acts. Why do we establish order in our world?
I feel that because we establish order, someone else ordered our existence. It didn't happen by accident. What was his reason for ordering our existence?
-Enoch Powell
We establish order out of our innate desire for self-preservation.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
We establish a far higher level of order than any other animal, and they too have an innate desire for self-preservation. Why is our level so high?
-Enoch Powell
Because our needs are more complex and elaborate than that of a pack of animals. Our system of order accommodates the complexity of our existence.
When you get hungry, you throw a pizza in the oven. The pizza is made from ingredients that were derived from a complex system of preparation. The oven is fire, which is something animals still cannot create.
Our minds are fueled by instincts, but those instincts are channeled through a complex intellect.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
this is pretty poor logic my man. you cannot prove god's existence by games like this. you cannot prove god doesn't exist by the games about evil that atheists like to play either. both propositions are equally reasonable. there is nothing foolish about faith. nor is there anything foolish about lack of faith. the only foolishness in this debate is a person on either side claiming an absolute grasp of the truth.
cos we're smarter than them. well, some of us are.
In another epoch, maybe it won't be true.
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Why?
It may be disagreeable with one, but it's fairly well-written.
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it's not written well. The whole arguement is "if God exists then he's either a mean god or he just doesn't care because people die and he does nothing about it" when the whole point of religion is that people ARE SUPPOSE to die.
Oh. Well, thanks for the heads-up.
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I don't think that is the point.
It is a fact that people die. There's no getting around that, not even Jesus. That is closer to the point.
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Sammi: Wanna just break up?
The pulpit of now (i.e., as the winning super bowl coach), with media is far different than reality. Media, and money has become reality for the world in so many ways. The survivors seek it, just to bring about a balance, the rulers of those things propogate the false god.
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
god, today, is Satan.
who will save our souls?
all posts by ©gue_barium are protected under US copyright law and are not to be reproduced, exchanged or sold
except by express written permission of ©gue_barium, the author.
It's necessary to win the approval of the moral majority. It makes them appear humble while at the same time giving them credibilty with the club known as judeo-christianity.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
Our greater level of order is reflective of our more developed brains and consequently this gives us a greater ability to preserve ourselves.
Please elaborate, oh profound and shadowy one!
I was thinking exactly the same thing.
-C Addison
I don't despise anyone for their beliefs, nor do I promote my own beliefs. If someone wants to discuss my views and their views, I'm all for it. I'm not proselytizing, I'm debating.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
We establish order in our world because it successfully contributes to our survival.
And I don't understand why it should logically follow that because we establish order someone else must have ordered our existence. Care to elaborate?
And going back to the article obviously it dosn't prove that God dosn't exist - proof of that dosn't exist.
i was gonna say 'i see' but i dont, hehe. maybe i need to read the book. your whole levels and stages of developmental awareness has never sat well with me though...
I don't have more complex "needs" than a pack of animals. I need food, water, and sex.
-Enoch Powell