The Final Debate Thread

digster wrote:

OK, this is starting to get a little irritating; we're voting with our heads, thank you very much. Although I think you're wrong to vote for McCain, I respect that your thought process and ideology has led you to that choice. I think you should grow up a little and offer me and other Obama supporters a bit of that same respect.

I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.

I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.

And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.

"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan

There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.

Look at the record. Vote with your head.

NeilJam wrote:

This debate had the worst moderator of all of them. He kept letting McCain get the last word on nearly every question. In spite of that I think Obama still did a better job there.

you have to be joking. I would have to say that your opinion is a little bias.

JSBE wrote:

obviously everything is subjective, but just a quick scan of some polls:


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/16/politics/2008debates/main4525289.shtml

Uncommitted voters named Barack Obama as the winner of the third and final presidential debate by a large margin, according to a CBS News/Knowledge Networks poll.

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http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/15/debate.poll/index.html

A majority of debate watchers think Sen. Barack Obama won the third and final presidential debate, according to a national poll conducted right afterward.

Fifty-eight percent of debate watchers questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll said Democratic candidate Obama did the best job in the debate, with 31 percent saying Republican Sen. John McCain performed best.

++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14618.html

Forty-nine percent of respondents said that Obama won the debate, compared to 46 who believed his opponent, Sen. John McCain, came out on top. The three-point gap separating the two candidates was equal to the poll’s margin of error. Five percent said they were unsure which candidate had the better evening.

I think this is due to the fact that many people look at visuals rather than substance. And also, many people think the person won that the media pundits after the debate tell them that won....if that makes sense.

Speakers wrote:

I wouldn't have really minded a McCain presidency that much (I think he would have shifted back to the center) But he nominated Palin for V.P. Our country can't take the risk. That is voting with my head.

Then you didn't give a thorough critical examination to her record. Few could argue that Biden is quite qualified by most standars. if you're rooting for presidential death, the I guess Biden's your guy.

But aside from that, if you hold Palin to an even higher standard, say, hold her up to the Dem Nominee, you see that she can beat even him.

I used this comparison to McCain, but if you hold it up to Palin as well...

Obama has

more corporate money FACT
worse friends FACT
less record of meaningful change FACT
less record of service FACT
less experience FACT
less knowledge FACT
a running mate who thinks both HE and McCain would be a better president than the nominee. FACT
less resistance to the establishment, aggregate on record FACT

these are the COLD HARD INDESPUTABLE FACTS.

Look at the record, vote with your head.

An Obama presidency is unacceptable.

prytoj wrote:

Then you didn't give a thorough critical examination to her record. Few could argue that Biden is quite qualified by most standars. if you're rooting for presidential death, the I guess Biden's your guy.

But aside from that, if you hold Palin to an even higher standard, say, hold her up to the Dem Nominee, you see that she can beat even him.

I used this comparison to McCain, but if you hold it up to Palin as well...

Obama has

more corporate money FACT
worse friends FACT
less record of meaningful change FACT
less record of service FACT
less experience FACT
less knowledge FACT
a running mate who thinks both HE and McCain would be a better president than the nominee. FACT
less resistance to the establishment, aggregate on record FACT

these are the COLD HARD INDESPUTABLE FACTS.

Look at the record, vote with your head.

An Obama presidency is unacceptable.

dude ... how can you spew this stuff and say FACT!?? ... worse friends?? ... less knowledge?? ... record of meaningful change?? ... they are primarily subjective viewpoints at best ... they are by no means FACT ...

prytoj wrote:

I'm a true independent voter, by record, and I have voted and will vote for the better man.

I voted Kerry in '04 not because he's not a tool, but because ultimately Bush f-ed up and that's where the buck stops. More heads should have rolled.

And many people are voting out of emotional attachement to Obama. They see his rhetoric on the mainstream media, paid for by corporate interests, about how he is going to fight against those same corporate interests. They believe the same media they despise.

"Prepare to be betrayed, Prepare to be disappointed" Nader on Cspan

There's plenty of criticism to go around.
Ultimately, the standard is not perfection, but who is the better man.

Look at the record. Vote with your head.

It's like speaking to a broken record, no pun intended. We have looked at legislation, we've looked at policy proposals. I think Obama has been right, and McCain has been consistently wrong. I'm not going vote for someone just because they have a long record, especially if I think it's the wrong record for the time. And I may have thought Bush was full of shit in 2004, but I at least was willing to acknowledge that the majority of the country thought differently then me. I'm happy to have disagreements and debates, but when you start telling me I and others are blinded when it's clear that it is not the case it's hard to take your arguments seriously. It's the kind of thing I find very irritating, and it happens on both sides.

Also, you'll notice that Obama's numbers have gone up in the past few weeks; this is when undecided voters that before this point I have not concentrated hard on the election are deciding, and they seem to be deciding in Obama's favor. Are they all zombies, too? I guess so, it just took them over two years to become mindless followers. Good thing they finally fell in line......it's just a ludicrous argument, and it treats the American people like idiots, which is something Republicans often accuse Democrats of doing.

cincybearcat wrote:

I think this is due to the fact that many people look at visuals rather than substance. And also, many people think the person won that the media pundits after the debate tell them that won....if that makes sense.

non-verbal communication is important. If memory serves me right, as per a Grad course I took a few years ago, Non-verbal communication makes up 80 to 85% communication...

perhaps people are combining verbal (substance) with non-verbal (visuals)....

cincybearcat wrote:

I agree regarding most of this...worst friends, knowledge...all subjective.

Record of meaningful change though? I think you could state that as fact.

what you consider meaningful change and what i may be is subject to our value system ... how is it not a subjective opinion?

faithful2you wrote:

98% of Obama supporters on here are so unbelievably biased and unrespectful to McCain yet you ask for repsect from McCain supporters?

I think it's funny how the Obama supporters on here have resorted to pointing out how old McCain looks. If that's the worse thing that came from McCain last night he must have done pretty well then. Voting based on his age is ALMOST as bad of voiting based on Obama's skin color.

if he had not chosen Sarah "can't answer a simple question: Palin, age would not be a factor...

sorry to tell you, but his age is a real factor in this race. He won't release his health records, and I'm not sure if you know this, he is old...

polaris wrote:

c'mon ... you can't be serious!? ... what is your criteria for who counts as a "good" friend and a "bad" friend!?? ...

there are plenty of reasons to not vote for obama but this is akin to mccain's continuous links to bill ayers - it's grasping at straws; it's throwing shit out there and hoping some of it sticks ...

Ayers is a self-admitted domestic terrorist. Obama is downplaying his associattion with him. Because...
People I know throw parties for me, in my honor, in their own home, all the time.
So, Obama either knew and lied, or didn't and is incompetent. which one is it?

You can't dispute Ayers in an america hater but further,
His own paster Wright "god d*** America"
His own wife "for the first time, I'm proud of my country"

This is an overall pattern that speaks to an overall environemnt of "ugly amerca" sentiment.

He is at best surrounded by an environment that expresses shame in America, and at worst an active part of that environment. I have no time for either.

You certainly cannot say that about McCain.

the corporate money, the media domination...connect the dots.
Look at the facts.