Science Without a Soul

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  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Oh really? Biology is secondary to the whole person. So Psychology and Sociology are the only aspects of a person's whole? Interesting to know, I'm assuming this insight came from your supreme intelligence. I'm still waiting for my diagnosis, by the way. Also, let me know how to shed this body, I'm kind of bored of it, I'm looking for something a bit more muscular. It's a wonder their isn't a huge human body market for those of us unsatisfied with our current husks.
    In this view, the psyche and the social aspects are where the mental health issues arise from--from life interactions finely synchronized within AND without.

    So for example, when I was "mentally ill", I healed by working on my own psyche, and on my social-evironmental issues. Just as the biology is affected by the psyche and the social interactions that cause an issue, the biology is also affected when one changes the psychic and social interactions. In my case, and in the case of others who recover, the biology responds to such change and for all intents and purposes is therefore secondary.

    As well, the material act of making, say, a table, only comes about also, when the psyche conceives of making it.

    I realize you have a different model--being a material one. It works for you. More power to you. However it's not my model, and when I took the biological/material view, I was devastated and lived the despair of chronic illness.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    In this view, the psyche and the social aspects are where the mental health issues arise from--from life interactions finely synchronized within AND without.

    So for example, when I was "mentally ill", I healed by working on my own psyche, and on my social-evironmental issues. Just as the biology is affected by the psyche and the social interactions that cause an issue, the biology is also affected when one changes the psychic and social interactions. In my case, and in the case of others who recover, the biology responds to such change and for all intents and purposes is therefore secondary.

    As well, the material act of making, say, a table, only comes about also, when the psyche conceives of making it.

    I realize you have a different model--being a material one. It works for you. More power to you. However it's not my model, and when I took the biological/material view, I was devastated and lived the despair of chronic illness.

    Yea, the biological view of human beings doesn't empower you to jump over skyscrapers. That's something you get if your born on Krypton.

    The Psychobiosocial view is reciprocal. Psychological and social events influence each other, likewise they have reciprocal connections to the biology, in this case the brain. So ALS is not a necessarily caused by psychosocial issues, but perhaps its caused by a biological issue. This is the most respectable approach, in my opinion. You suggest that all biological issues are the result of poor psychosocial balance. Then why aren't you in the olympics, and our friend Jeanie is to blame for her MS, right? I'm sorry, I thin it takes a special kind of ignorance to neglect biology as you do.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Yea, the biological view of human beings doesn't empower you to jump over skyscrapers. That's something you get if your born on Krypton.

    The Psychobiosocial view is reciprocal. Psychological and social events influence each other, likewise they have reciprocal connections to the biology, in this case the brain. So ALS is not a necessarily caused by psychosocial issues, but perhaps its caused by a biological issue. This is the most respectable approach, in my opinion. You suggest that all biological issues are the result of poor psychosocial balance. Then why aren't you in the olympics, and our friend Jeanie is to blame for her MS, right? I'm sorry, I thin it takes a special kind of ignorance to neglect biology as you do.
    I completely agree the biology and psyche go both ways. If I can empower myself by using my psyche to influence my biology I will. I don't have a vested interest to, when it goes both ways, say I am a victim of my biology.

    As for blame, blame is what people do when they don't know how to solve problems. Blaming is the opposite of being empowered. So if you want to make blame an issue, you are free to do so. I choose not to.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • prism
    prism Posts: 2,440
    angelica wrote:
    I completely agree the biology and psyche go both ways. If I can empower myself by using my psyche to influence my biology I will. I don't have a vested interest to, when it goes both ways, say I am a victim of my biology.

    As for blame, blame is what people do when they don't know how to solve problems. Blaming is the opposite of being empowered. So if you want to make blame an issue, you are free to do so. I choose not to.

    so If you came down with a terminal illness your psyche can just wish it away and *poof* it's gone? I suppose that anyone can just wish away any illness and it'll disappear according to you?
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    angels share laughter
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    prism wrote:
    so If you came down with a terminal illness your psyche can just wish it away and *poof* it's gone? I suppose that anyone can just wish away any illness and it'll disappear according to you?
    This is your straw man argument. I'm not responsible for fake arguments you attribute to me.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    prism wrote:
    so If you came down with a terminal illness your psyche can just wish it away and *poof* it's gone? I suppose that anyone can just wish away any illness and it'll disappear according to you?

    That's the census I'm getting as well. I think Angelica should clarify.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That's the census I'm getting as well. I think Angelica should clarify.
    I can't clarify arguments I haven't made. I accept full responsibility for what I say and what I mean. Others must accept responsibility for what they hear.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    I can't clarify arguments I haven't made. I accept full responsibility for what I say and what I mean. Others must accept responsibility for what they hear.

    Come on? All this talk of reciprocity and you won't share the responsibility for our interpretation of your statements, even when we've expressed a lack of understanding and requested clarification?

    I can only accept then, that you cannot explain in any further detail. Probably because your ideology is in conflict with reason. You wouldn't say that Laura is a victim of her mind, she is a victim of her biology. Her biology is affecting her mind. As you've stated yourself, biology and psychology have reciprocal connections. Therefor it should be psychobiosocial instead of psychosocial. And therefor you cannot pick and choose what parts of biology you want.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • prism
    prism Posts: 2,440
    Ahnimus wrote:
    That's the census I'm getting as well. I think Angelica should clarify.


    it's the same census that everyone gets. yet she'll just claim that she doesn't make these claims that she's been claiming for all the time that she's been making these same claims over and over ad naseum. how does one clarify your delusions, Angelica?
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    angels share laughter
    *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Come on? All this talk of reciprocity and you won't share the responsibility for our interpretation of your statements, even when we've expressed a lack of understanding and requested clarification?

    I can only accept then, that you cannot explain in any further detail. Probably because your ideology is in conflict with reason. You wouldn't say that Laura is a victim of her mind, she is a victim of her biology. Her biology is affecting her mind. As you've stated yourself, biology and psychology have reciprocal connections. Therefor it should be psychobiosocial instead of psychosocial. And therefor you cannot pick and choose what parts of biology you want.
    I am clearly referring to mental health issues--psycho-social issues--throughout this thread. If you want to misconstrue that to a different subject, please take it to another thread.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    And this is a question for Psychology and Biology. To what degree to neural correlates affect their psychological correlates and vice-versa?

    For example, seratonin correlates with moods, but do the moods affect the seratonin or does the seratonin affect the moods?

    This remains an open question in science.

    You claim to have an answer Angelica.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    'In 1999 the U.S. Surgeon General issued a report on mental health that, for the first time on a national scale, recognized the importance of recovery in adult mental health. It stated “the concept of recovery is having substantial impact on consumers and families, mental health research, and service delivery”.

    In 2003, the final report of the President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health (NFC), Achieving the Promise: Transforming Mental Health Care in America, called for recovery to be the “common, recognized outcome of mental health services”. The report stated unambiguously, “The goal of mental health services is recovery”.    '

    ["Voices of Transformation: Developing Recovery-Based Statewide Consumer/Survivor Organizations"]
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    'In 1999 the U.S. Surgeon General issued a report on mental health that, for the first time on a national scale, recognized the importance of recovery in adult mental health. It stated “the concept of recovery is having substantial impact on consumers and families, mental health research, and service delivery”.

    In 2003, the final report of the President’s New Freedom Commission on Mental Health (NFC), Achieving the Promise: Transforming Mental Health Care in America, called for recovery to be the “common, recognized outcome of mental health services”. The report stated unambiguously, “The goal of mental health services is recovery”.    '

    ["Voices of Transformation: Developing Recovery-Based Statewide Consumer/Survivor Organizations"]

    Huh? What does this pertain to? It seems like it's taken totally out of context. What is "recovery" defined as in this context?
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Huh? What does this pertain to? It seems like it's taken totally out of context. What is "recovery" defined as in this context?
    You can find that quote here:
    http://www.power2u.org/articles.html

    Go to the article "Voices of Transformation..." Page 9.




    The Recovery model is widely embraced, for example, the Canadian Mental Health Association is Recovery based. Here is a snippet about the model as per wikipedia:

    "The Recovery Model is an approach to mental disorder or substance dependence that emphasizes and supports an individual's potential for recovery. Recovery can be seen within the model as a personal journey requiring hope, a secure base, supportive relationships, empowerment, social inclusion, coping skills, and finding meaning."
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    prism wrote:
    so If you came down with a terminal illness your psyche can just wish it away and *poof* it's gone? I suppose that anyone can just wish away any illness and it'll disappear according to you?
    By the way, the method of translating thought to material works kinda like it does in building a table, as I referred to earlier.

    When we can think of a table and *poof* cause it to exist, is about when we'll be able to think of mental and physical health and have it *poof* appear.

    The truth is that in terms of mental health (and according to what I hear for those who have transformed physical illness to physical health), while it STARTS with a thought, the practical and very real applications and work in building the outcome of health must be done. Again, it's like building a table that begins with the thought to build the table, and is then followed by the practicalities necessary to bring that table into being.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    angelica wrote:
    You can find that quote here:
    http://www.power2u.org/articles.html

    Go to the article "Voices of Transformation..." Page 9.




    The Recovery model is widely embraced, for example, the Canadian Mental Health Association is Recovery based. Here is a snippet about the model as per wikipedia:

    "The Recovery Model is an approach to mental disorder or substance dependence that emphasizes and supports an individual's potential for recovery. Recovery can be seen within the model as a personal journey requiring hope, a secure base, supportive relationships, empowerment, social inclusion, coping skills, and finding meaning."

    Interesting. I prefer the horses mouth myself.

    http://www.ontario.cmha.ca/policy_positions.asp?cID=3739
    Ontario wrote:
    Nonetheless, a philosophy of recovery provides a beacon of hope where, too often, people are told that mental illness means certain decline into unemployment, poverty, and disability. The promise of recovery is that it will lead to fuller lives for people with mental illness. However, recovery is not to be confused with cure. People who have recovered may still experience symptoms and struggle with the consequences of their diagnosis. For those who have experienced this journey first hand, recovery is defined as living consciously and fully despite life’s burdens.

    We conclude with a few cautionary notes. Recovery must not engender a Pollyanna-like disregard for the suffering of people with mental illness.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna_principle
    Wikipedia wrote:
    The Pollyanna principle or Pollyannaism describes the tendency for people to agree with positive statements describing them. It is sometimes called positivity bias. The phenomenon is similar to the Forer effect.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • Ahnimus
    Ahnimus Posts: 10,560
    Oh, by the way, it's the Ontario Mental Health that uses the recovery model, which they mention there is no model for. It doesn't mention any other provinces using the recovery method.

    All the recovery method is, is a system of developing a positive self-image. That's all it is, and for that I see it's merits and agree with it. It is not an alternative to prescription drugs, it's all part of the system.
    I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Ahnimus wrote:
    Oh, by the way, it's the Ontario Mental Health that uses the recovery model, which they mention there is no model for. It doesn't mention any other provinces using the recovery method.

    All the recovery method is, is a system of developing a positive self-image. That's all it is, and for that I see it's merits and agree with it. It is not an alternative to prescription drugs, it's all part of the system.

    There are different views of recovery depending on what the person defines as recovery for themselves. I'm involved with a group of people who do public speaking for educational purposes, regarding their recovery from mental health issues. Each person has a different idea of what recovery is for them because it is a subjective experience.

    While the recovery model may include the use of medications, it is individually based on subjective human experience.

    THE KEY IS THAT FOCUSING ON RECOVERY IS DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED TO FOCUSING ON BEING "ILL". If we focus on how ill we are, that becomes our experience. If we focus on our recovery and our potential, recovery and potential is our experience. All recovery models are human based, not brain based.

    There's much info on recovery re: CMHA
    http://www.cmha.ca/bins/content_page.asp?cid=284-683-1480-1497-1511-1471&lang=1

    This is on the CMHA home page: "The Canadian Mental Health Association is a nation-wide, charitable organization that promotes the Mental Health of all and supports the resilience and recovery of people experiencing mental illness."


    Again, Ahnimus, I have not once downgraded the value of medications for myself or others. I've never once suggested anything as an alternative to medications. I've said clearly in this thread that I took medications ALL the time when I had a need for them, and that I would take them tomorrow if I manifested symptoms that called for them. I am for the use of medications in terms of empowering the person who takes them, as they prove effective for them.
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    Here, for example, is the Alberta CMHA home page wherein they use the same quote as cited on the CMHA general page, only adding the "Alberta" part in the recovery focus:

    "The Alberta Northwest Region of The Canadian Mental Health Association is part of a nation-wide, charitable organization that promotes the Mental Health of all and supports the resilience and recovery of people experiencing mental illness."

    The CMHA focuses on mental health, not illness, even when talking in terms of the debilitating mental health symptoms people experience.


    http://www.cmha.ca/bins/site2.asp?cid=284-713&lang=1
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!
  • angelica
    angelica Posts: 6,038
    It's interesting that so many mental health agencies focus on recovery. And that the principles they come up with are all similarly empowering. For example, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Adminstration cites these as essential to recovery:

    self-direction; individualized and person-centered; empowerment; holistic; non-linear; strengths-based; peer support; respect; responsibility; and hope

    http://www.cmha.ca/data/1/rec_docs/754_samhsa_consensus_statement.pdf
    "The opposite of a fact is falsehood, but the opposite of one profound truth may very well be another profound truth." ~ Niels Bohr

    http://www.myspace.com/illuminatta

    Rhinocerous Surprise '08!!!

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