How is abortion morally ethical.....

NCfan · October 2006

dangerboy wrote:

don't get pregnant in the first place. or take the heat if you do. you knew going in there were risks. there are no foolproof birth control methods.

and it's not "her" body, it's the body of a seperate being, fully developed or not...

damn, i can't believe i'm in another one of these....these discussions never lead anywhere. nobody is truly looking to understand the other side.

I think there are those who are looking to understand the other side. Problem is, the "other side" is so ill defined. There are so many aspects and ways of looking at abortion, and people pick and choose what's important to them.

I can understand certain aspects of both sides of the issue, and I also disagree with certain aspects on both sides. In the end, I do not like abortion - but feel that the government should not outlaw it.

My reasoning comes down to the fact that killing a fetus is about the same as removing a mole from your body IN THE ALL-IMPORTANT aspect that the fetus like the mole has no consiousness. If the fetus would be caused any pain whatsoever, then I would be against abortion. It may react to stimuli, but it has no concept of life or death. Abortion in the first trimester isn't that bad.

SundaySilence · October 2006

50% of all fertilized eggs are aborted spontaneously (miscarried)

DOSW · October 2006

soulsinging wrote:

i do have a question though. what about rape? do you think there should be an exception for abortion in cases of rape or incest?

This is one of the reasons why I think it needs to be kept legal, even though I'm 'pro-life.' I think if police records matched up with the unwanted pregnancy at hand, then she should be able to get an abortion.

The problem with that is that very few women who are raped actually report it to the police. It's a tough issue.

jlew24asu · October 2006

SundaySilence wrote:

50% of all fertilized eggs are aborted spontaneously (miscarried)

Determining the prevalence of miscarriage is difficult. Many miscarriages happen very early in the pregnancy, before a woman may know she is pregnant. Treatment of women with miscarriage at home means medical statistics on miscarriage miss many cases. While one study found a total miscarriage of 12%, a study using very sensitive early pregnancy tests found that 25% of pregnancies are miscarried by the sixth week. After the age of 35, the risk of miscarriage increases considerably: 1 in 5 or 6. After 40, the risk increases to 1 in 3, and after 45 it is 1 in 2.

jlew24asu · October 2006

soulsinging wrote:

actually, im more a proponent of sterilization for dumb people. but im not getting what i want any time soon. in any case, you statement again assumes abortion is "killing" something, a point we will never see eye to eye on.

i do have a question though. what about rape? do you think there should be an exception for abortion in cases of rape or incest?

this is one of the reasons why I dont complain about it being legal.

SundaySilence · October 2006

jlew24asu wrote:

Determining the prevalence of miscarriage is difficult. Many miscarriages happen very early in the pregnancy, before a woman may know she is pregnant. Treatment of women with miscarriage at home means medical statistics on miscarriage miss many cases. While one study found a total miscarriage of 12%, a study using very sensitive early pregnancy tests found that 25% of pregnancies are miscarried by the sixth week. After the age of 35, the risk of miscarriage increases considerably: 1 in 5 or 6. After 40, the risk increases to 1 in 3, and after 45 it is 1 in 2.

Here's more information if you're interested.

"It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously"

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

jlew24asu · October 2006

SundaySilence wrote:

Here's more information if you're interested.

"It is estimated that up to 50% of all fertilized eggs die and are lost (aborted) spontaneously"

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001488.htm

here is a source that says its 10%-25%.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html

SundaySilence · October 2006

jlew24asu wrote:

here is a source that says its 10%-25%.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregnancycomplications/miscarriage.html

I think you misunderstand. I'm discussing fertilized eggs. Your source estimates that fertilized eggs are lost 50-75% of the time.

jlew24asu · October 2006

SundaySilence wrote:

I think you misunderstand. I'm discussing fertilized eggs. Your source estimates that fertilized eggs are lost 50-75% of the time.

O ok. you mean just an egg and a sperm cell. not a developed fetus? ok

Hope&Anger · October 2006

jlew24asu wrote:

O ok. you mean just an egg and a sperm cell. not a developed fetus? ok

So we're all in favor of the "morning after pill" -- right? The medication that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in a uterus? The thing that anti-abortion groups prevented the FDA from licensing for years and years. Because while we don't want to make judgments about a [developed/fully developed/developing] fetus, we're okay with targeting those fertilized eggs and embryos.

Just checking . . . .

jlew24asu · October 2006

Hope&Anger wrote:

So we're all in favor of the "morning after pill" -- right? The medication that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in a uterus? The thing that anti-abortion groups prevented the FDA from licensing for years and years. Because while we don't want to make judgments about a [developed/fully developed/developing] fetus, we're okay with targeting those fertilized eggs and embryos.

Just checking . . . .

you havent read all I have to say about abortion. im just checkin

Ahnimus · October 2006

It all depends if you arguing pre-embryonic abortion or embryonic abortion. There are different stages of fetal developement. It's not as if a person just instantly gets a fully developed baby in them.

I consider the morning after pill to be the best form of abortion.

jlew24asu · October 2006

Ahnimus wrote:

It all depends if you arguing pre-embryonic abortion or embryonic abortion. There are different stages of fetal developement. It's not as if a person just instantly gets a fully developed baby in them.

I consider the morning after pill to be the best form of abortion.

hey buddy. I like that comment. how about that. this might be maybe the second time now?

BarkingDogs · October 2006

let me put my body armor on first...cause i'm sure i'm going to catch hell for this...
why not let the woman choose?....initially...

for example:

little 16yo suzie forgets she is ovulating....her and her boyfriend go at it like sweaty sex pigs...and oopsie...we have an unwanted pregnancy! now i'm sure there are some 16 yo capable of good parenting...but face it..if you dont have your mess together...how can you take care of another human being....
little suzie has an abortion....but also gets a microchip implanted with all data pertinent to this specific abortion including the reason for the abortion (unwanted preg., health reasons, rape)
(in case of rape, a police report/case# will also be present)

this was suzie's one free abortion "pass"

let's assume little suzie still can't keep her legs together and gets knocked up again accidentally....of to the clinic we go...suzie is "scanned" and it is determined that this is her second unwanted pregnancy...so, guess what suzie....you get that abortion you want (in the best interest of the child, lets assume)...but you also win today's door prize....

pete...pull back that curtain and show suzie what she has won......

a free sterilization courtesy of your county health department!.....no more bad decisions concerning unwanted pregnancy for you!.....

(the rape cases and health issues concerning the mother would automatically get the "free pass")

a good idea i think...woman retains the right to choose....once.....this just prevents the abortion being used as birth control...

fire away boys and girls....

jlew24asu · October 2006

BarkingDogs wrote:

let me put my body armor on first...cause i'm sure i'm going to catch hell for this...
why not let the woman choose?....initially...

for example:

little 16yo suzie forgets she is ovulating....her and her boyfriend go at it like sweaty sex pigs...and oopsie...we have an unwanted pregnancy! now i'm sure there are some 16 yo capable of good parenting...but face it..if you dont have your mess together...how can you take care of another human being....
little suzie has an abortion....but also gets a microchip implanted with all data pertinent to this specific abortion including the reason for the abortion (unwanted preg., health reasons, rape)
(in case of rape, a police report/case# will also be present)

this was suzie's one free abortion "pass"

let's assume little suzie still can't keep her legs together and gets knocked up again accidentally....of to the clinic we go...suzie is "scanned" and it is determined that this is her second unwanted pregnancy...so, guess what suzie....you get that abortion you want (in the best interest of the child, lets assume)...but you also win today's door prize....

pete...pull back that curtain and show suzie what she has won......

a free sterilization courtesy of your county health department!.....no more bad decisions concerning unwanted pregnancy for you!.....

(the rape cases and health issues concerning the mother would automatically get the "free pass")

a good idea i think...woman retains the right to choose....once.....this just prevents the abortion being used as birth control...

fire away boys and girls....

you could also replace airbags with 20 long sharp steak knives. think how many cars wrecks would be avoided.

hippiemom · October 2006

BarkingDogs wrote:

let me put my body armor on first...cause i'm sure i'm going to catch hell for this...
why not let the woman choose?....initially...

for example:

little 16yo suzie forgets she is ovulating....her and her boyfriend go at it like sweaty sex pigs...and oopsie...we have an unwanted pregnancy! now i'm sure there are some 16 yo capable of good parenting...but face it..if you dont have your mess together...how can you take care of another human being....
little suzie has an abortion....but also gets a microchip implanted with all data pertinent to this specific abortion including the reason for the abortion (unwanted preg., health reasons, rape)
(in case of rape, a police report/case# will also be present)

this was suzie's one free abortion "pass"

let's assume little suzie still can't keep her legs together and gets knocked up again accidentally....of to the clinic we go...suzie is "scanned" and it is determined that this is her second unwanted pregnancy...so, guess what suzie....you get that abortion you want (in the best interest of the child, lets assume)...but you also win today's door prize....

pete...pull back that curtain and show suzie what she has won......

a free sterilization courtesy of your county health department!.....no more bad decisions concerning unwanted pregnancy for you!.....

(the rape cases and health issues concerning the mother would automatically get the "free pass")

a good idea i think...woman retains the right to choose....once.....this just prevents the abortion being used as birth control...

fire away boys and girls....

How is it any of my business how many abortions Suzie has, or her reasons for having them? Why does Suzie have to explain herself to us?

callen · October 2006

NCfan wrote:

I think there are those who are looking to understand the other side. Problem is, the "other side" is so ill defined. There are so many aspects and ways of looking at abortion, and people pick and choose what's important to them.

I can understand certain aspects of both sides of the issue, and I also disagree with certain aspects on both sides. In the end, I do not like abortion - but feel that the government should not outlaw it.

My reasoning comes down to the fact that killing a fetus is about the same as removing a mole from your body IN THE ALL-IMPORTANT aspect that the fetus like the mole has no consiousness. If the fetus would be caused any pain whatsoever, then I would be against abortion. It may react to stimuli, but it has no concept of life or death. Abortion in the first trimester isn't that bad.

I do try to understand the other side..and I have picked up a few points that make sense...as to your last sentence..thats really the question...when is it a baby.......I know at conception its not....just some organized cells and I know at birth it is.....so when the transition...thats the heart of the debate.

soulsinging · October 2006

DOSW wrote:

This is one of the reasons why I think it needs to be kept legal, even though I'm 'pro-life.' I think if police records matched up with the unwanted pregnancy at hand, then she should be able to get an abortion.

The problem with that is that very few women who are raped actually report it to the police. It's a tough issue.

this contradiction has always boggled my mind on the pro-life side, and it shows the sexism inherent in the "pro-life" crowd. we've got to prevent women from thinking they can whore it up, so they HAVE to take responsibility for their actions. really, they're using pregnancy as a potential punishment to prevent women from having sex.

becos truly, how can you say you support life and then ok abortion due to rape? it is wrong to kill a baby becos its mother made a mistake, but ok to kill a baby becos its father made a mistake? a baby conceived by rape would still be a human being would it not?. if you are truly pro-life, i see no way you can find an exemption for these "lesser" babies."

Kann · October 2006

I'm sorry if this message is a little off subject, but reading some of the responses I was wondering something :

* After abortion became legal in France, medical survey's helped discover that before that law a lot of "underground" abortions took place (wich were generally done in unhealthy and unsafe ways). Now in a country where abortion is illegal because "killing a foetus is a murder, like killing a human being", do you think a woman conducting an illegal abortion should be considered as a killer?

* I don't know if he has been mentionned in the thread but Steven-D Levitt wrote in freakonomics the results of a theory conducted on the legalisation of abortion and its effect on crime in the us. It is better described in the book (or the article) but Levitt's idea is basically :
Women who have the choice will (in most cases) raise wanted children, these are less likely to grow up to be criminals as opposed to unwanted children (for various reasons : money, drugs, love etc.).
The theory is not at all in favor of abortion, actually Levitt compares the number of murders prevented to the number of additional abortions and raises a moral issue (I wanted to point out that I didn't include this as an argument). Just wandered if anyone else had read that?

DOSW · October 2006

soulsinging wrote:

this contradiction has always boggled my mind on the pro-life side, and it shows the sexism inherent in the "pro-life" crowd. we've got to prevent women from thinking they can whore it up, so they HAVE to take responsibility for their actions. really, they're using pregnancy as a potential punishment to prevent women from having sex.

becos truly, how can you say you support life and then ok abortion due to rape? it is wrong to kill a baby becos its mother made a mistake, but ok to kill a baby becos its father made a mistake? a baby conceived by rape would still be a human being would it not?. if you are truly pro-life, i see no way you can find an exemption for these "lesser" babies."

First of all, I usually put 'pro-life' in quotation marks for a reason. I really hate that label, because it tends to make people think things about me that aren't true- things like me being a sexist. "If you are truly pro-life..." Give me a fucking break. I don't base my opinions on a stupid label. I go by what I think is right.

And second, your second paragraph there doesn't make any practical sense. It looks great on paper, but think about it. The woman is the one with the baby, right? So, if she gets pregnant because of her own choice to have sex, then she (and the father, for that matter) should be held responsible for that baby. But if she gets pregnant because of rape, then she isn't responsible because it's not her fault. It's not hard to follow.

Raping someone is a lot different from choosing to have sex. Putting them on the same level by calling them both "mistakes" is idiotic.

How is abortion morally ethical.....

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