Anti Zionism is Anti Semitism
Comments
-
sponger wrote:Wow. Who did you hear that from? You seem too informed to really believe a statement like that.
The Balfour Declaration was a letter dated November 2, 1917, from the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there. It is also interesting to note that later Joseph Stalin set up the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Asiatic Russia, which still exists today.
One of the main Jewish figures who negotiated the granting of the declaration was Dr. Chaim Weizmann, the leading spokesman for organized Zionism in Britain. During the first meeting between Chaim Weizmann and Balfour, in 1906, the Unionist leader was impressed by Weizman's personality. Balfour asked Weizmann why Palestine—and Palestine alone—could be the basis for Zionism. "Anything else would be idolatry", Weizmann protested, adding: "Mr. Balfour, supposing I were to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?" "But Dr. Weizmann", Balfour retorted, "we have London", to which Weizmann rejoined, "That is true, but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh."[1]
In his November, 2002 interview with the New Statesman magazine, the UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict. [3]
"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis—again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917
The Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Mandate of Palestine or British Mandate of Palestine, was a territory in the Middle East comprising modern Jordan and Israel with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire, which the League of Nations entrusted to the United Kingdom to administer in the aftermath of World War I as a Mandate Territory.
Before the end of World War I, Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire. The British, under General Allenby during the Arab Revolt stirred up by the British intelligence officer T. E. Lawrence, defeated the Turkish forces in 1917 and occupied Palestine and Syria. The land was administered by the British for the remainder of the war. The British military administration ended starvation with the aid of food supplies from Egypt, successfully fought typhus and cholera epidemics and significantly improved the water supply to Jerusalem. They reduced corruption by paying the Arab and Jewish judges higher salaries. Communications were improved by new railway and telegraph lines.
The United Kingdom was granted control of Palestine by the Versailles Peace Conference which established the League of Nations in 1919 and appointed Herbert Samuel, a former Postmaster General in the British cabinet, who was instrumental in drafting the Balfour Declaration, as its first High Commissioner in Palestine. During World War I the British had made two promises regarding territory in the Middle East. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence of Arabia, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their supporting the British; and Britain had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home as laid out in the Balfour Declaration, 1917.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_Text:_League_of_Nations_Palestine_MandateI necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
Nowhere in that does it say that jews were handed that land. It merely states that the land was declared a "jewish homeland."
Again, you seem too well-informed to be unaware of the massive land purchases by the jews beginning in the late 1800's and tapering off in the 1940's with the writing of the white paper, which was a british law banning the further sale of land to jews in palestine. Is this selective research on your part?0 -
brianjd wrote:"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"
- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.
"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.
"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.
"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.
This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.
"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.
"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!
"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.
Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."
From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967)
Thought I'd post my answer in the relevant thread too:
He talks about how anti-semites can camouflage themselves as anti-zionists as that doesnt sound as bad. Which they probably do.
But I suppose the extension of this is supposed to be Zionism = Jews = Israel (the state) so that anyone uttering a bad word about Israel the state is also anti-semite, or a criticism of zionism is anti-semite. Bollocks. I have nothing against jews, but I have problems with Israeli state policies, and I have problems with an expansionist ultra-nationalistic zionism. Same way, I have nothing against americans, infact I deeply admire many of them, but I have problems with their state's policies. With "jews" I admire several of the jewish intellectuals that has laid the foundation for sociology among others. Many great thinkers, and I respect other religions somewhat (although I'm no fan of religion in general). BUT I have some pretty heavy criticisms aimed at the state of Israel and how it handles things. Am I an anti-semite?
Peace
Dan"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 19650 -
brianjd wrote:Last time I checked the Arabs including the Palestinians attacked the jews in 1948 causing their own displacement.
I'm not even arguing who should be in there, I'm just saying using god as justification is wrong.
What a rude, prejudice comment. I'm sure many religious Americans will agree with you. Why do you expect non-believers to accept your god-driven justification?brianjd wrote:Americans never cease to amaze me...Using the word "methinks" in your message board posts doesn't make you look smart.0 -
I took your comment in the wront context.sponger wrote:wtf are you talking about? You think I have something against people buying land?______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
They stole the land that belonged to Britain and NOT the Palestinians after defeating the combined arab armies? Interesting logicAhnimus wrote:They didn't buy the land from anyone. It was given to them by Brittain. But Brittain also promised the Palestinians would be sovereign if they helped overthrow the Ottoman's. The war in 1948 was when Israel decalred independance, officially stealing the land from those who fought for it.______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
I dont know where your getting that from. Peronsally I am agnostic. Perhaps direct your venom at MLK. It was his words I postedhailhail82 wrote:I'm not even arguing who should be in there, I'm just saying using god as justification is wrong.
What a rude, prejudice comment. I'm sure many religious Americans will agree with you. Why do you expect non-believers to accept your god-driven justification?______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
Thats for you to decide. I think MLK was simply saying that after the Holocaust it is no longer ok to hate jews for being jews. Some people, and some found on this board, have used the word Zionist or their purported hate for Zionistis as a way of expressing what is truly anti semitism disguised as anti Zionism. I think that is what the speech meant and that is why I posted it. Whether it applies to you is up to you. Based on your comments I dont think so but cant say the same for some others on this board.OutOfBreath wrote:Thought I'd post my answer in the relevant thread too:
He talks about how anti-semites can camouflage themselves as anti-zionists as that doesnt sound as bad. Which they probably do.
But I suppose the extension of this is supposed to be Zionism = Jews = Israel (the state) so that anyone uttering a bad word about Israel the state is also anti-semite, or a criticism of zionism is anti-semite. Bollocks. I have nothing against jews, but I have problems with Israeli state policies, and I have problems with an expansionist ultra-nationalistic zionism. Same way, I have nothing against americans, infact I deeply admire many of them, but I have problems with their state's policies. With "jews" I admire several of the jewish intellectuals that has laid the foundation for sociology among others. Many great thinkers, and I respect other religions somewhat (although I'm no fan of religion in general). BUT I have some pretty heavy criticisms aimed at the state of Israel and how it handles things. Am I an anti-semite?
Peace
Dan______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
is actually correct on this sliver of history. the palestinians were to have state but when they and united arab countires decided they were entitled to more than the UN gratned them, they violated international decree for the first time and invaded newly independent Israel and were roundly defeated by a rag tag group of jews. So, in short, they fucked it up for themselvesAhnimus wrote:The Balfour Declaration was a letter dated November 2, 1917, from the British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour, to Lord Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation, a private Zionist organization. The letter stated the position, agreed at a British Cabinet meeting on October 31, 1917, that the British government supported Zionist plans for a Jewish "national home" in Palestine, with the condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there. It is also interesting to note that later Joseph Stalin set up the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Asiatic Russia, which still exists today.
One of the main Jewish figures who negotiated the granting of the declaration was Dr. Chaim Weizmann, the leading spokesman for organized Zionism in Britain. During the first meeting between Chaim Weizmann and Balfour, in 1906, the Unionist leader was impressed by Weizman's personality. Balfour asked Weizmann why Palestine—and Palestine alone—could be the basis for Zionism. "Anything else would be idolatry", Weizmann protested, adding: "Mr. Balfour, supposing I were to offer you Paris instead of London, would you take it?" "But Dr. Weizmann", Balfour retorted, "we have London", to which Weizmann rejoined, "That is true, but we had Jerusalem when London was a marsh."[1]
In his November, 2002 interview with the New Statesman magazine, the UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict. [3]
"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis—again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration,_1917
The Mandate for Palestine, also known as the Mandate of Palestine or British Mandate of Palestine, was a territory in the Middle East comprising modern Jordan and Israel with the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, formerly belonging to the Ottoman Empire, which the League of Nations entrusted to the United Kingdom to administer in the aftermath of World War I as a Mandate Territory.
Before the end of World War I, Palestine was a part of the Ottoman Empire. The British, under General Allenby during the Arab Revolt stirred up by the British intelligence officer T. E. Lawrence, defeated the Turkish forces in 1917 and occupied Palestine and Syria. The land was administered by the British for the remainder of the war. The British military administration ended starvation with the aid of food supplies from Egypt, successfully fought typhus and cholera epidemics and significantly improved the water supply to Jerusalem. They reduced corruption by paying the Arab and Jewish judges higher salaries. Communications were improved by new railway and telegraph lines.
The United Kingdom was granted control of Palestine by the Versailles Peace Conference which established the League of Nations in 1919 and appointed Herbert Samuel, a former Postmaster General in the British cabinet, who was instrumental in drafting the Balfour Declaration, as its first High Commissioner in Palestine. During World War I the British had made two promises regarding territory in the Middle East. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence of Arabia, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their supporting the British; and Britain had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home as laid out in the Balfour Declaration, 1917.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1922_Text:_League_of_Nations_Palestine_Mandate______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
VERY interesting read, that one.0
-
brianjd wrote:is actually correct on this sliver of history. the palestinians were to have state but when they and united arab countires decided they were entitled to more than the UN gratned them, they violated international decree for the first time and invaded newly independent Israel and were roundly defeated by a rag tag group of jews. So, in short, they fucked it up for themselves
The UN didn't get involved until after 1948. You jumped ahead like 20 years in history. Look at the above dates again 1917/1922.I necessarily have the passion for writing this, and you have the passion for condemning me; both of us are equally fools, equally the toys of destiny. Your nature is to do harm, mine is to love truth, and to make it public in spite of you. - Voltaire0 -
WIKIPEDIA -UN Partition Plan
Main article: 1947 UN Partition Plan
On 29 November 1947 the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan, UN General Assembly Resolution 181, to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning the British Mandate of Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. Each state would comprise three major sections, linked by extraterritorial crossroads; the Arab state would also have an enclave at Jaffa. In consideration of their religious significance, the Jerusalem area, including Bethlehem, was assigned to an international zone to be administered by the UN. Although both Jews and Arabs criticized aspects of the plan, the resolution was welcomed by most of the Jewish population, including the Jewish Agency, but was considered unacceptable by the Arab population in Palestine and by the surrounding Arab states.
[edit]
Political objectives of the protagonists
[edit]
The Arab Higher Committee of Amin al-Husayni
Main article: Amin al-Husayni
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin al-Husayni, the Chairman of the Arab Higher Committee collaborated with Nazi Germany during the Second World War. In 1940, he asked the Axis powers to acknowledge the Arab right, "to settle the question of Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries in accordance with the national and racial interests of the Arabs and along the lines similar to those used to solve the Jewish question in Germany and Italy."[citation needed] He spent the second half of WWII in Germany making radio broadcasts exhorting Muslims to ally with the Nazis in war against their common enemies. In one of these broadcasts, he said, "Arabs, arise as one man and fight for your sacred rights. Kill Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor. God is with you."[19] [20] In the immediate aftermath of the Holocaust, such statements by Arab leaders (along with the Mufti's violently antisemitic history) led to a widespread belief that the Israelis were facing a new “warrant for genocide.”[citation needed]______________
Irvine 1992, Las Vegas 1993, Mountain View 1994, San Diego 1995, Los Angeles 1996, Los Angeles 1998, Moutain View 1999, San Bernadino 2000, Los Angeles 2000, Irvine 2003, Irvine 2003, Moutain View 2003, Santa Barbara 2003, San Diego 2006, Los Angeles 2006, Santa Barbara 20060 -
The arabs are semites too.
0 -
enharmonic wrote:The arabs are semites too.
True ... In fact, Arabs are Caucasians!
However, the term "anti-Semite" has come to refer to Jewish people specifically. Its not correct, but that's the common usage.0 -
He was saying a quite lot more than that in that quote. I am rubbed completely the wrong way by the overt nationalism expressed there-in. I am myself quite anti-nationalistic. (Mind you, nationalism is something completely different than mere local patriotism.)brianjd wrote:Thats for you to decide. I think MLK was simply saying that after the Holocaust it is no longer ok to hate jews for being jews.
I cannot speak for those others, but it is possible to fiercly oppose a lot of what Israel (the state) does without being an indirect or direct anti-semite. Some of them may be anti-semites, I wouldn't know. But I dont think it fair to imply that people being critical is automatically anti-semite. That's like questioning the Iraq war is being anti- or unamerican. However, I can agree to things here often being very one-sided one way or the other, while I think responsibility should be handed out generously to many factions on all sides.Some people, and some found on this board, have used the word Zionist or their purported hate for Zionistis as a way of expressing what is truly anti semitism disguised as anti Zionism.
Well thanks for that. I don't consider myself an anti-semite. My favorite sociologist is a polish jew after all (Zygmunt Bauman).I think that is what the speech meant and that is why I posted it. Whether it applies to you is up to you. Based on your comments I dont think so but cant say the same for some others on this board.
But that MLK-quote made me pretty uncomfortable with it's blatant nationalism and one-sided representation. MLK is allowed to say and believe what he wants of course, but I dont have to applaud it.
Peace
Dan"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 19650
Categories
- All Categories
- 149K Pearl Jam's Music and Activism
- 110.1K The Porch
- 278 Vitalogy
- 35.1K Given To Fly (live)
- 3.5K Words and Music...Communication
- 39.2K Flea Market
- 39.2K Lost Dogs
- 58.7K Not Pearl Jam's Music
- 10.6K Musicians and Gearheads
- 29.1K Other Music
- 17.8K Poetry, Prose, Music & Art
- 1.1K The Art Wall
- 56.8K Non-Pearl Jam Discussion
- 22.2K A Moving Train
- 31.7K All Encompassing Trip
- 2.9K Technical Stuff and Help