There is no justification in ignoring the situation in Palestine. Israel has an incredibly powerful lobby within the United States on many levels. I'm not sure "lobby" accurately depicts how powerful. Because of that it's poltical suicide to even pretend as though you are going to be open-minded or fair in how you act towards the Palestine issue. We have Israel's back as far as we possibly can openly, and when they REALLY fuck up, we'll secretly do everything we can to fix it to minimize the damage.
I don't pretend to know what the solution in Palestine is. You've got two very strong cultures with historical anomosity; differing, to some contradictory religious beliefs; and both have taken turns fucking each other over.
If you look at history this is the kind of situation where one culture consumes the other. I think both the Israelis and Palestinians know that and neither wants to be the one that is forced to adopt the other's. So, who leaves?
So you missed the point again. I was not literally misunderstanding you, I was laughing at the ridiculous one sided viewpoint that you expressed. You are in good company though. Hitler and Stalin and all sorts of ass holes presented their oponents as idiots in order to dominate the idiot masses. You are well on your way. I would suggest a bigger forum though in the future. Manipulating my words to a few thousand in a country of millions is not going to give justice to your cause. Shoot me an email though if you hit another wall. I have all sorts of ideas.
You bump a thread that's 25 days old to say absolutely nothing useful.
when you want a real discussion, let me know. otherwise feel free to keep up with your nonsense, just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.
Yes because I only show up here once a month these days. I search my old posts, see who responded to them..... But yeah I barely remember the original argument. But when I came back to it.... It sort of came back to me. I mocked your ignorant one sided viewpoint of a very complicated situation, you came back in return by calling me ignorant. Typical Palestine verus Israel discusion in the end.
you didn't mock my 'ignorant one sided viewpoint' accurately at all. you made a pathetic attempt in the name of a nine year old boy who was shot to death to discredit any accusation of Israel's crimes. Not only that, but you yourself claimed ignorance to the situation, and yet you dare to call someone else ignorant.
tell me, what gives you the impression that I'm ignorant? The fact that I made a post about a nine year old boy who was killed makes me ignorant?
First off, Isreal didn't shoot anyone. It's a fucking country.
Just like the U.S. hasn't killed anyone in Iraq, right?
or better yet, Just like Al Qaeda hasn't killed anyone, right?
These are just countries and organizations.
...are you even being serious here or what?
Secondly, a human being did this to another human. I'm sick of sides being blamed. When will "humans" be held accountable for their actions.
what the fuck are you talking about.
this is the Israeli ARMY. the OFFICIAL ARMY OF THE COUNTRY. the country shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians? for over a thousand children in less than 8 years?
that argument is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.
It is the way you go about arguing the point. The very nature of the title of your post. It is not based on fact, and it is instantly focused on demonizing a certain country or culture. It is ignorant pundit bull shit, and your argument is lost in the fog of your own prejudice. Instead of stating a story in a factual way you state a story in a manipulative way to convince dumb people to see your own point of view. Even when you write the words you do you are completely aware of the dishonesty you are expressing and yet you still go on. Beyond what I just typed, trying to explain your own ignorance to you would be a waste of all of our time.
are you insinuating that Israel did not shoot the boy? not only that, but in my defense (which I don't need to defend myself, Israel's brutal occupation and oppression is enough), I was copying the title of the video in the first post.
still, however, it is not ignorant, or prejudice, and to claim it was to 'demonize a country or culture' is just another one your pitiful attempts to either ignore or excuse Israel's occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,122
When there's no consequences for you actions, incidents like these will sadly continue for a long time to come. Sort of reminds me of Blackwater, they face reprimand much less any killings to innocent Iraqi citizens.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Nothing I am doing here is defending Israel. First of all, a country does not shoot a 9 year old. Anyone with a brain is going to take wartime actions into context. Today a woman in the United States was convicted for microwaving her baby to death three years ago. The United States did not microwave a baby three years ago.
how is this even logical.
seriously.
why do people think this is an argument.
your analogy is so far off! this is the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY. NOT SOME RANDOM ISRAELI WOMAN. the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY, the ARMY OF THE GOVERNMENT, ie. ISRAEL has killed MANY thousands of innocent civilians, including over 1000 children in less than 8 years.
when the U.S. army kills many innocent civilians, is it so far off to say the U.S. has killed people in Iraq? I'm pretty sure people reading this thread know that I'm talking about the Israeli ARMY, and I'm not trying to say that the land of Israel swallowed up a nine year old and brutally killed him because he was pissing on the grass.
I am being a bit of a dick, but the point I am trying to make is that taking moments in time and attributing them in a overally general way to a government policy in order to demonize them is counter productive to whatever you are trying to achieve. An Israeli soldier may have shot a child, but the government of Israel did not and that is not policy.
your obsession of 'demonizing' them is ridiculous. your only point here is that we should not acknowledge the fact that due to Israeli occupation and oppression, many Palestinians, including children have been brutally murdered. these were protests that the Israeli army shot at. this isn't a random Israeli army man going nuts, they were ORDERED to shoot at these protesters.
There is a lot of debate to be had over the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. But if you reduce it to the country of Israel murdered a nine year old and Palestine blew up a 7 year old at a coffee bar then you are just perpetuating the conflict. I apoligize for being such a dick, but there is a lot of grey area in this argument.
you should know, if anything, I'm not trying to 'limit' this argument, at all.
They are both bad guys to an extent and just because one side has more power does not make them the worst offender.
No, I think it makes one side worse if that side is occupying the other, oppressing the other, and ethnically cleansing the other, don't you?
When there's no consequences for you actions, incidents like these will sadly continue for a long time to come. Sort of reminds me of Blackwater, they face reprimand much less any killings to innocent Iraqi citizens.
precisely.
not only is the Israeli army allowed to get away with this, but Israeli settlers commit atrocious acts of violence against the Palestinians and are scarcely ever reprimanded.
if the palestinians even think of spitting on the floor the Israelis walk on, they're beaten, arrested, or killed for it.
Just like the U.S. hasn't killed anyone in Iraq, right?
or better yet, Just like Al Qaeda hasn't killed anyone, right?
These are just countries and organizations.
...are you even being serious here or what?
what the fuck are you talking about.
this is the Israeli ARMY. the OFFICIAL ARMY OF THE COUNTRY. the country shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians? for over a thousand children in less than 8 years?
that argument is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.
'humans'... give me a fucking break.
People do "bad' things, sorry. I'm sick of simplifying everything into a big gang warfare. People are simpler than we think. They develop grudges, are given a gun, and will do bad things.
And I am of the U.S. and last I recall, I haven't harmed a living soul.
I think you are missing my point. Whether its Isreal, Iraq, China or Sudan.. people are fucking eachother over.
I am of the U.S. and last I recall, I haven't harmed a living soul.
well guess what, the army that you pay for through your tax dollars, the one that is representing you out there, the OFFICIAL ARMY of the United States, HAS harmed living souls. and you know what? it's not a stretch to say 'the U.S. has killed civilians in Iraq' because people know you're talking about the army. I can't even believe I'm even responding to this, it's so fucking obvious...
I think you are missing my point. Whether its Isreal, Iraq, China or Sudan.. people are fucking eachother over.
that's not even a 'point' to make in this thread though, it's completely irrelevant, and you're just excusing the deaths of innocent civilians and children, particularly the boy mentioned in this thread, by saying 'so what'.
well guess what, the army that you pay for through your tax dollars, the one that is representing you out there, the OFFICIAL ARMY of the United States, HAS harmed living souls. and you know what? it's not a stretch to say 'the U.S. has killed civilians in Iraq' because people know you're talking about the army. I can't even believe I'm even responding to this, it's so fucking obvious...
that's not even a 'point' to make in this thread though, it's completely irrelevant, and you're just excusing the deaths of innocent civilians and children, particularly the boy mentioned in this thread, by saying 'so what'.
I'm not excusing anything. I'm not defending anyone... and If I don't pay my taxes, I go to jail.
I'm saying there are bad people out there. You still seem to think I'm defending something?
Seriously, I'm blaming the death of this boy on humans. Too many of us are fucked up. Starting with our leaders.
Do you want me to say Jews are evil?.. No, people are are evil.
Again, not even close to seeing the point I'm trying to make. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing with me.. but continue to play the "blame sides" game, and people will always fight.. learn to see the world as one. Inside, we are all the same.
I'm not excusing anything. I'm not defending anyone... and If I don't pay my taxes, I go to jail.
I'm saying there are bad people out there. You still seem to think I'm defending something?
'excuse' is not the same as 'defend'. I did not accuse you of defending this, I accused you of excusing it.
and like it or not, the U.S. army still represents you, and when people say 'the U.S. killed civilians in iraq' it's pretty obvious they are talking about the army... just like in this case.
Seriously, I'm blaming the death of this boy on humans. Too many of us are fucked up. Starting with our leaders.
You see, YOU'RE the one trying to simplify this. you seem to have the idea that this is just another murder like any other, all over the world.
it's not.
Do you want me to say Jews are evil?.. No, people are are evil.
oh yeah, that's obviously what I want you to say. :rolleyes:
Again, not even close to seeing the point I'm trying to make.. but continue to play the "blame sides" game, and people will always fight.. learn to see the world as one.
let's all get around the campfire and sing songs about how EQUAL we are... and that people in general are just fucked up in the head... then all violence will stop.
you seem to not understand this issue (Israel and Palestine) very well.
'excuse' is not the same as 'defend'. I did not accuse you of defending this, I accused you of excusing it.
and like it or not, the U.S. army still represents you, and when people say 'the U.S. killed civilians in iraq' it's pretty obvious they are talking about the army... just like in this case.
You see, YOU'RE the one trying to simplify this. you seem to have the idea that this is just another murder like any other, all over the world.
it's not.
oh yeah, that's obviously what I want you to say. :rolleyes:
let's all get around the campfire and sing songs about how EQUAL we are... and that people in general are just fucked up in the head... then all violence will stop.
you seem to not understand this issue (Israel and Palestine) very well.
After reading that, I'm not sure why we are arguing.. I think its just for the sake. I just don't like generalizations... like if you are Isreali, you are responsible for putting the bullet in this kid, or vice versa.
If we are still arguing, it is only because of misunderstanding.. much like the rest of the world misunderstands each other.
And I do understand Isreal and Palestine.. They will continue to fight and kill each other, balanced or unbalanced.. its human nature.
It is typical of you to use this sad peice of news to prove your predjudice outlaw. So it is proof of what? Do you think the IDF commanders ordered the soldiers to go and shoot children? Do you think the guilty soldier had a secret desire to kill children based on his inherant evil Jewishness? this kind of thing happens in all army's in situations where these kind of violent clashes occur. It was not a 'peacefull protest', in fact one IDF soldier has probably lost his sight after being struck by a rock. If the individual soldier has commited a crime, he will be punished. This sad episode does not say anything about Israel, but it does say something about you outlaw. You will use anything you can find in your personal propaganda war against Israel.
For a view of the incident from the Israeli side, see:
It is typical of you to use this sad peice of news to prove your predjudice outlaw. So it is proof of what? Do you think the IDF commanders ordered the soldiers to go and shoot children?
No. They were ordered to shoot at a group of protesters, with complete disregard to who may be killed.
Do you think the guilty soldier had a secret desire to kill children based on his inherant evil Jewishness?
You're just being ridiculous.
this kind of thing happens in all army's in situations where these kind of violent clashes occur.
VIOLENT CLASHES? this was a demonstration. a protest. to call it a violent clash as if it were a fucking battle is just disgraceful.
It was not a 'peacefull protest', in fact one IDF soldier has probably lost his sight after being struck by a rock.
how pathetic, you base your argument on 'probably'...
If the individual soldier has commited a crime, he will be punished.
This sad episode does not say anything about Israel, but it does say something about you outlaw. You will use anything you can find in your personal propaganda war against Israel.
You know, you go on and on about how I have a secret agenda of propaganda, but so far you've provided nothing.
For a view of the incident from the Israeli side, see:
what?!
this is not even 'the incident'. this is a separate case altogether, which shows that YOU in fact use ANYTHING you can find to further your excuses and complete disregard of Israeli violence and aggression against Palestinians. Other than the fact that you are trying to excuse the death of a child by comparing it to a rock being thrown, you're simply trying to vilify the Arabs as if they start the violence or something.
I can pull out stories of Israeli aggression against Palestinians all day.
Oh, here's one with rocks:
"Two Palestinians were injured when Israeli settlers attacked on Saturday a Palestinian wedding ceremony in the twon of Hebron in the West Bank.
A group of settlers attacked by throwing stones at Al-Ja'bary wedding ceremony in the city, injuring two of the participants, Palestinian eyewitnesses said." http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1928813&Language=en
"“By the time I saw them they were already on me,” he told The Times. “They started kicking and beating me. I couldn’t protect myself, there were about 25 of them.”
Beatings of Palestinians by radical religious settlers, protected by the Israeli army and police, are a common occurrence in this dangerous city, where Jewish settlements nudge into the heart of a community of about 120,000 Arabs." http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4467099.ece
"A 10-year-old boy was subjected to physical abuse amounting to torture for 2.5 hours by Israeli soldiers who stormed his family’s shop on 11 June, seeking information on the location of a handgun. The boy was repeatedly beaten, slapped and punched in the head and stomach, forced to hold a stress position for half and hour, and threatened. He was deeply shocked and lost two molar teeth as a result of the assault." http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?docId=811&categoryid=1
"Reuters has said it is "deeply disturbed" that the Israeli military has decided the tank crew that killed one of the news agency's cameramen and eight young bystanders in the Gaza Strip four months ago will not face legal action." http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/aug/13/reuters.pressandpublishing
Jews always isolated themselves because they were viewed with suspicion by Christian nations.
For good reason - they killed Jesus
This is the stupidest fucking argument ever. Nobody alive today killed Jesus. Nobody alive 1000 years ago killed Jesus. Assuming Jesus was just a regular dude whom the "Jews" (read: people of Abraham living in what is now Israel) MIGHT HAVE killed, how does that have any effect on people who today follow the same faith? Even if Jesus was the son of God, God intended for Jesus to die so that he could bring the redemption message. Without it, Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.
My point here is that stupid individuals make stupid choices, not because they're part of a racial/ethnic classification. Just because I'm an American doesn't mean I fall under the stereotype of a lazy person who enjoys eating at McDonalds.
As for the topic itself and the OP: Give it up. The land now called Israel has been sought after since early Biblical times, through the development of Islam, and will continue to be so for who knows how long. Because neither side will listen to reason (and it has been tried for decades), for all I care they can all beat each other to death for that God-awful piece of land.
If idle hands are the devil's workshop, he must not be very productive.
Comments
I don't pretend to know what the solution in Palestine is. You've got two very strong cultures with historical anomosity; differing, to some contradictory religious beliefs; and both have taken turns fucking each other over.
If you look at history this is the kind of situation where one culture consumes the other. I think both the Israelis and Palestinians know that and neither wants to be the one that is forced to adopt the other's. So, who leaves?
when you want a real discussion, let me know. otherwise feel free to keep up with your nonsense, just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.
tell me, what gives you the impression that I'm ignorant? The fact that I made a post about a nine year old boy who was killed makes me ignorant?
Secondly, a human being did this to another human. I'm sick of sides being blamed. When will "humans" be held accountable for their actions.
or better yet, Just like Al Qaeda hasn't killed anyone, right?
These are just countries and organizations.
...are you even being serious here or what? what the fuck are you talking about.
this is the Israeli ARMY. the OFFICIAL ARMY OF THE COUNTRY. the country shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians? for over a thousand children in less than 8 years?
that argument is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.
'humans'... give me a fucking break.
still, however, it is not ignorant, or prejudice, and to claim it was to 'demonize a country or culture' is just another one your pitiful attempts to either ignore or excuse Israel's occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.
When there's no consequences for you actions, incidents like these will sadly continue for a long time to come. Sort of reminds me of Blackwater, they face reprimand much less any killings to innocent Iraqi citizens.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
seriously.
why do people think this is an argument.
your analogy is so far off! this is the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY. NOT SOME RANDOM ISRAELI WOMAN. the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY, the ARMY OF THE GOVERNMENT, ie. ISRAEL has killed MANY thousands of innocent civilians, including over 1000 children in less than 8 years.
when the U.S. army kills many innocent civilians, is it so far off to say the U.S. has killed people in Iraq? I'm pretty sure people reading this thread know that I'm talking about the Israeli ARMY, and I'm not trying to say that the land of Israel swallowed up a nine year old and brutally killed him because he was pissing on the grass. your obsession of 'demonizing' them is ridiculous. your only point here is that we should not acknowledge the fact that due to Israeli occupation and oppression, many Palestinians, including children have been brutally murdered. these were protests that the Israeli army shot at. this isn't a random Israeli army man going nuts, they were ORDERED to shoot at these protesters. you should know, if anything, I'm not trying to 'limit' this argument, at all. No, I think it makes one side worse if that side is occupying the other, oppressing the other, and ethnically cleansing the other, don't you?
not only is the Israeli army allowed to get away with this, but Israeli settlers commit atrocious acts of violence against the Palestinians and are scarcely ever reprimanded.
if the palestinians even think of spitting on the floor the Israelis walk on, they're beaten, arrested, or killed for it.
And I am of the U.S. and last I recall, I haven't harmed a living soul.
I think you are missing my point. Whether its Isreal, Iraq, China or Sudan.. people are fucking eachother over.
I'm saying there are bad people out there. You still seem to think I'm defending something?
Seriously, I'm blaming the death of this boy on humans. Too many of us are fucked up. Starting with our leaders.
Do you want me to say Jews are evil?.. No, people are are evil.
Again, not even close to seeing the point I'm trying to make. If you did, you wouldn't be arguing with me.. but continue to play the "blame sides" game, and people will always fight.. learn to see the world as one. Inside, we are all the same.
and like it or not, the U.S. army still represents you, and when people say 'the U.S. killed civilians in iraq' it's pretty obvious they are talking about the army... just like in this case. You see, YOU'RE the one trying to simplify this. you seem to have the idea that this is just another murder like any other, all over the world.
it's not. oh yeah, that's obviously what I want you to say. :rolleyes: let's all get around the campfire and sing songs about how EQUAL we are... and that people in general are just fucked up in the head... then all violence will stop.
you seem to not understand this issue (Israel and Palestine) very well.
If we are still arguing, it is only because of misunderstanding.. much like the rest of the world misunderstands each other.
And I do understand Isreal and Palestine.. They will continue to fight and kill each other, balanced or unbalanced.. its human nature.
nobody wants them...
:rolleyes:
-Enoch Powell
Jews always isolated themselves because they were viewed with suspicion by Christian nations.
For good reason - they killed Jesus
-Enoch Powell
It is typical of you to use this sad peice of news to prove your predjudice outlaw. So it is proof of what? Do you think the IDF commanders ordered the soldiers to go and shoot children? Do you think the guilty soldier had a secret desire to kill children based on his inherant evil Jewishness? this kind of thing happens in all army's in situations where these kind of violent clashes occur. It was not a 'peacefull protest', in fact one IDF soldier has probably lost his sight after being struck by a rock. If the individual soldier has commited a crime, he will be punished. This sad episode does not say anything about Israel, but it does say something about you outlaw. You will use anything you can find in your personal propaganda war against Israel.
For a view of the incident from the Israeli side, see:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1006664.html
"Only six percent of investigations into offences allegedly committed by Israeli soldiers against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank yield indictments, an Israeli rights group says."
http://news.smh.com.au/world/offences-by-israeli-troops-unpunished-20080730-3nbj.html You know, you go on and on about how I have a secret agenda of propaganda, but so far you've provided nothing. what?!
this is not even 'the incident'. this is a separate case altogether, which shows that YOU in fact use ANYTHING you can find to further your excuses and complete disregard of Israeli violence and aggression against Palestinians. Other than the fact that you are trying to excuse the death of a child by comparing it to a rock being thrown, you're simply trying to vilify the Arabs as if they start the violence or something.
I can pull out stories of Israeli aggression against Palestinians all day.
Oh, here's one with rocks:
"Two Palestinians were injured when Israeli settlers attacked on Saturday a Palestinian wedding ceremony in the twon of Hebron in the West Bank.
A group of settlers attacked by throwing stones at Al-Ja'bary wedding ceremony in the city, injuring two of the participants, Palestinian eyewitnesses said."
http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1928813&Language=en
"“By the time I saw them they were already on me,” he told The Times. “They started kicking and beating me. I couldn’t protect myself, there were about 25 of them.”
Beatings of Palestinians by radical religious settlers, protected by the Israeli army and police, are a common occurrence in this dangerous city, where Jewish settlements nudge into the heart of a community of about 120,000 Arabs."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article4467099.ece
"A 10-year-old boy was subjected to physical abuse amounting to torture for 2.5 hours by Israeli soldiers who stormed his family’s shop on 11 June, seeking information on the location of a handgun. The boy was repeatedly beaten, slapped and punched in the head and stomach, forced to hold a stress position for half and hour, and threatened. He was deeply shocked and lost two molar teeth as a result of the assault."
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?docId=811&categoryid=1
"Israeli settlers prevent a prayer in Beit Sahour, assault worshippers"
http://imemc.org/article/56403
"Outraged Israeli human rights organisations have united in challenging the military's decision to invoke only minor penalties against a senior officer over the shooting of a bound and blindfolded Palestinian prisoner by a soldier under his command."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fury-after-israeli-officer-in-charge-of-prisoners-shooting-is-reassigned-888292.html
"Israel uses 'skunk bombs' against West Bank demonstrators"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080810/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictwestbankbarrierdemos
"Reuters has said it is "deeply disturbed" that the Israeli military has decided the tank crew that killed one of the news agency's cameramen and eight young bystanders in the Gaza Strip four months ago will not face legal action."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/aug/13/reuters.pressandpublishing
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel1
'Israeli soldiers tell of indiscriminate killings by army and a culture of impunity'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/06/israel
'Israeli Soldiers Speak Out'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&feature=related
This is the stupidest fucking argument ever. Nobody alive today killed Jesus. Nobody alive 1000 years ago killed Jesus. Assuming Jesus was just a regular dude whom the "Jews" (read: people of Abraham living in what is now Israel) MIGHT HAVE killed, how does that have any effect on people who today follow the same faith? Even if Jesus was the son of God, God intended for Jesus to die so that he could bring the redemption message. Without it, Christianity wouldn't exist in the first place.
My point here is that stupid individuals make stupid choices, not because they're part of a racial/ethnic classification. Just because I'm an American doesn't mean I fall under the stereotype of a lazy person who enjoys eating at McDonalds.
As for the topic itself and the OP: Give it up. The land now called Israel has been sought after since early Biblical times, through the development of Islam, and will continue to be so for who knows how long. Because neither side will listen to reason (and it has been tried for decades), for all I care they can all beat each other to death for that God-awful piece of land.
7/9/06 LA 1
7/10/06 LA 2
10/21/06 Bridge 1