Israel shoots dead nine year old boy

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"Israeli troops fatally shot two Palestinian youths, aged ten and seventeen, this week in a village known for its nonviolent resistance."

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/8/1/israeli_troops_kill_two_palestinians_in

HushBull

The thing is Outlaw, it comes across as you just trying to vilify and demonize a specific group of people. The situation is entirely fucked over there, obviously. We get it.

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HushBull wrote:

The thing is Outlaw, it comes across as you just trying to vilify and demonize a specific group of people. The situation is entirely fucked over there, obviously. We get it.

it's not a specific group of people-- that's plain ridiculous, and only someone who's trying to discredit the argument for the defense of the Palestinians would actually try to point out that I'm trying to vilify all Israelis.

However, their government is part of a mass campaign against the Palestinians and their land, and many people seem content excusing it.

"the situation is fucked, obviously. we get it."

ok, so we should do nothing? what the fuck is that comment supposed to mean? please, enlighten me.

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C4Lukin wrote:

So the country of Israel shot a dead nine year old boy. I mean if he was already dead, and this was a sanctioned shooting by the entire country I do not see what is wrong here. A bit demented and disrespectful yes.

they didn't shoot a dead kid, they shot a kid dead. they shot MANY, MANY kids dead. the only thing that's demented and disrespectful is people actually excusing or ignoring these heinous acts.

And yes I am willfully being ignorant about the situation. But maybe hearing the words "How is it that a 9 year old boy, so very alive earlier in the day, is now lying dead in a hospital morgue," leaves a few question marks in my mind about the reporting going on here. There is just so much misleading about that story and the wording at the begining of this thread that any intelligent discussion was dead before it started.

I think you should listen to your own advice in that you're ignorant about the situation and leave it at that because the rest of this quote is just that- ignorance.

raszputini

Israel stole that land with force and subterfuge (as well as US and British backing) and has had to constantly use those methods to keep it. The Palestinians have certainly done their share of evil, but if we hadn't pushed them out of their home this probably wouldn't be happening.

I actually know a couple of Israelis, and they are awesome folks. This isn't their fault, but now the entire society has been conditioned to aggressively defend their little sliver of land from invaders, the only compromise is to give up their perceived homes and in a lot of ways, their way of life, because their grandparents stole them.

Really fucked up situation. It's what happens when the US and UK get together and start arbitrarily drawing lines on the globe.

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raszputini wrote:

I actually know a couple of Israelis, and they are awesome folks. This isn't their fault, but now the entire society has been conditioned to aggressively defend their little sliver of land from invaders, the only compromise is to give up their perceived homes and in a lot of ways, their way of life, because their grandparents stole them.

That's correct, but I will add that the kids have done their fair share of crime as well. It wasn't that their grandparents stole the land, and the kids have lived in peace since. Israeli settlers even these days still launch attacks against innocent Palestinians.

Not saying you didn't know that, just throwing it in.

ForestBrain

.................What about all of the children killed because of Americans waging a war against Iraq? What about the thousands of children in America that are abused, molested and murdered? Why does that not matter? This is crap. It goes on all over the whole freakin' world and to pick out one particular incident because it's a certain country is not only ignorant, it's hypocritical. America needs to fix her own problems before trying to fix other countries' problems. Though I do believe America is beyond repair.

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ForestBrain wrote:

.................What about all of the children killed because of Americans waging a war against Iraq? What about the thousands of children in America that are abused, molested and murdered? Why does that not matter?

feel free to make threads about those.

This is crap. It goes on all over the whole freakin' world and to pick out one particular incident because it's a certain country is not only ignorant, it's hypocritical. America needs to fix her own problems before trying to fix other countries' problems. Though I do believe America is beyond repair.

I see... so we should let the Palestinian people suffer and tell them not to bitch because it happens all over the world while we sit at home, eat Big Macs and Freedom Fries, and yell at Bill O'Reilly on the TV all day? great.

ForestBrain

They are suffering because of America. Don't you see that? You cannot trust American media for information on other countries. America doesn't—DOES NOT—have the right to go into other countries and tell them how to live. No country has that right. It's wrong.
Yeah, America is spoiled, big time, but there is a multitude of suffering in this country.
My beef is the hypocrisy of this country. The arrogance. They act like they are holy and have the right to go about ordering other countries around.

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ForestBrain wrote:

They are suffering because of America. Don't you see that? You cannot trust American media for information on other countries. America doesn't—DOES NOT—have the right to go into other countries and tell them how to live. No country has that right. It's wrong.
Yeah, America is spoiled, big time, but there is a multitude of suffering in this country.
My beef is the hypocrisy of this country. The arrogance. They act like they are holy and have the right to go about ordering other countries around.

ok, I agree with that. what's your point of ignoring the situation in Palestine though?

raszputini

There is no justification in ignoring the situation in Palestine. Israel has an incredibly powerful lobby within the United States on many levels. I'm not sure "lobby" accurately depicts how powerful. Because of that it's poltical suicide to even pretend as though you are going to be open-minded or fair in how you act towards the Palestine issue. We have Israel's back as far as we possibly can openly, and when they REALLY fuck up, we'll secretly do everything we can to fix it to minimize the damage.

I don't pretend to know what the solution in Palestine is. You've got two very strong cultures with historical anomosity; differing, to some contradictory religious beliefs; and both have taken turns fucking each other over.

If you look at history this is the kind of situation where one culture consumes the other. I think both the Israelis and Palestinians know that and neither wants to be the one that is forced to adopt the other's. So, who leaves?

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C4Lukin wrote:

So you missed the point again. I was not literally misunderstanding you, I was laughing at the ridiculous one sided viewpoint that you expressed. You are in good company though. Hitler and Stalin and all sorts of ass holes presented their oponents as idiots in order to dominate the idiot masses. You are well on your way. I would suggest a bigger forum though in the future. Manipulating my words to a few thousand in a country of millions is not going to give justice to your cause. Shoot me an email though if you hit another wall. I have all sorts of ideas.

You bump a thread that's 25 days old to say absolutely nothing useful.

when you want a real discussion, let me know. otherwise feel free to keep up with your nonsense, just don't be surprised when people don't take you seriously.

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C4Lukin wrote:

Yes because I only show up here once a month these days. I search my old posts, see who responded to them..... But yeah I barely remember the original argument. But when I came back to it.... It sort of came back to me. I mocked your ignorant one sided viewpoint of a very complicated situation, you came back in return by calling me ignorant. Typical Palestine verus Israel discusion in the end.

you didn't mock my 'ignorant one sided viewpoint' accurately at all. you made a pathetic attempt in the name of a nine year old boy who was shot to death to discredit any accusation of Israel's crimes. Not only that, but you yourself claimed ignorance to the situation, and yet you dare to call someone else ignorant.

tell me, what gives you the impression that I'm ignorant? The fact that I made a post about a nine year old boy who was killed makes me ignorant?

LikeAnOcean

First off, Isreal didn't shoot anyone. It's a fucking country.

Secondly, a human being did this to another human. I'm sick of sides being blamed. When will "humans" be held accountable for their actions.

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LikeAnOcean wrote:

First off, Isreal didn't shoot anyone. It's a fucking country.

Just like the U.S. hasn't killed anyone in Iraq, right?
or better yet, Just like Al Qaeda hasn't killed anyone, right?
These are just countries and organizations.

...are you even being serious here or what?

Secondly, a human being did this to another human. I'm sick of sides being blamed. When will "humans" be held accountable for their actions.

what the fuck are you talking about.

this is the Israeli ARMY. the OFFICIAL ARMY OF THE COUNTRY. the country shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians? for over a thousand children in less than 8 years?

that argument is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.

'humans'... give me a fucking break.

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C4Lukin wrote:

It is the way you go about arguing the point. The very nature of the title of your post. It is not based on fact, and it is instantly focused on demonizing a certain country or culture. It is ignorant pundit bull shit, and your argument is lost in the fog of your own prejudice. Instead of stating a story in a factual way you state a story in a manipulative way to convince dumb people to see your own point of view. Even when you write the words you do you are completely aware of the dishonesty you are expressing and yet you still go on. Beyond what I just typed, trying to explain your own ignorance to you would be a waste of all of our time.

are you insinuating that Israel did not shoot the boy? not only that, but in my defense (which I don't need to defend myself, Israel's brutal occupation and oppression is enough), I was copying the title of the video in the first post.

still, however, it is not ignorant, or prejudice, and to claim it was to 'demonize a country or culture' is just another one your pitiful attempts to either ignore or excuse Israel's occupation and oppression of the Palestinian people.

g under p

_outlaw wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=But9m3O4umI

how much more do people need??

When there's no consequences for you actions, incidents like these will sadly continue for a long time to come. Sort of reminds me of Blackwater, they face reprimand much less any killings to innocent Iraqi citizens.

Peace

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C4Lukin wrote:

Nothing I am doing here is defending Israel. First of all, a country does not shoot a 9 year old. Anyone with a brain is going to take wartime actions into context. Today a woman in the United States was convicted for microwaving her baby to death three years ago. The United States did not microwave a baby three years ago.

how is this even logical.

seriously.

why do people think this is an argument.

your analogy is so far off! this is the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY. NOT SOME RANDOM ISRAELI WOMAN. the OFFICIAL ISRAELI ARMY, the ARMY OF THE GOVERNMENT, ie. ISRAEL has killed MANY thousands of innocent civilians, including over 1000 children in less than 8 years.

when the U.S. army kills many innocent civilians, is it so far off to say the U.S. has killed people in Iraq? I'm pretty sure people reading this thread know that I'm talking about the Israeli ARMY, and I'm not trying to say that the land of Israel swallowed up a nine year old and brutally killed him because he was pissing on the grass.

I am being a bit of a dick, but the point I am trying to make is that taking moments in time and attributing them in a overally general way to a government policy in order to demonize them is counter productive to whatever you are trying to achieve. An Israeli soldier may have shot a child, but the government of Israel did not and that is not policy.

your obsession of 'demonizing' them is ridiculous. your only point here is that we should not acknowledge the fact that due to Israeli occupation and oppression, many Palestinians, including children have been brutally murdered. these were protests that the Israeli army shot at. this isn't a random Israeli army man going nuts, they were ORDERED to shoot at these protesters.

There is a lot of debate to be had over the Israeli and Palestinian conflict. But if you reduce it to the country of Israel murdered a nine year old and Palestine blew up a 7 year old at a coffee bar then you are just perpetuating the conflict. I apoligize for being such a dick, but there is a lot of grey area in this argument.

you should know, if anything, I'm not trying to 'limit' this argument, at all.

They are both bad guys to an extent and just because one side has more power does not make them the worst offender.

No, I think it makes one side worse if that side is occupying the other, oppressing the other, and ethnically cleansing the other, don't you?

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g under p wrote:

When there's no consequences for you actions, incidents like these will sadly continue for a long time to come. Sort of reminds me of Blackwater, they face reprimand much less any killings to innocent Iraqi citizens.

precisely.

not only is the Israeli army allowed to get away with this, but Israeli settlers commit atrocious acts of violence against the Palestinians and are scarcely ever reprimanded.

if the palestinians even think of spitting on the floor the Israelis walk on, they're beaten, arrested, or killed for it.

LikeAnOcean

_outlaw wrote:

Just like the U.S. hasn't killed anyone in Iraq, right?
or better yet, Just like Al Qaeda hasn't killed anyone, right?
These are just countries and organizations.

...are you even being serious here or what?

what the fuck are you talking about.

this is the Israeli ARMY. the OFFICIAL ARMY OF THE COUNTRY. the country shouldn't be held accountable for the murder of thousands and thousands of innocent Palestinians? for over a thousand children in less than 8 years?

that argument is so ridiculous, it's not even funny.


'humans'... give me a fucking break.

People do "bad' things, sorry. I'm sick of simplifying everything into a big gang warfare. People are simpler than we think. They develop grudges, are given a gun, and will do bad things.

And I am of the U.S. and last I recall, I haven't harmed a living soul.

I think you are missing my point. Whether its Isreal, Iraq, China or Sudan.. people are fucking eachother over.