I hate these guys...

SilverSeed · April 2008

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/01/border.fence/index.html

How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.

I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.

inmytree · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/01/border.fence/index.html

How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.

I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.

who do you hate...? Mexicans...? Fence Builders...? Chertoff...?

what's your point...?

Drew263 · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/01/border.fence/index.html

How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.

I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.

I have no problem with people wanting to better their lives here. It's the American way...but...they need to become American citizens and contribute (taxes) just like the rest of us. Do we need to make it easier to become an American? Maybe so, but...and I can't believe I'm saying this...we have plenty of American people in the low income range that need the resources (social programs) that are being used by non-tax payers.

Been to an emergency room lately?? Why is it my sister's children (low income taxpayer, children on medicaid, ie socialized medicine) have to wait in line at the ER, bleeding in a room full of non-tax paying illegals? It's bullshit and it happens everyday.

SilverSeed · April 2008

inmytree wrote:

who do you hate...? Mexicans...? Fence Builders...? Chertoff...?

what's your point...?

I hate Chertoff, Dept. of Homeland Security... that side. My point? We're now evading our own laws to build fences. It's fucking ridiculous.

Also I thought the point of an OP was to generate discussion, not necessarily make a point. But I'm new to this whole internet board thing.

SilverSeed · April 2008

Drew263 wrote:

I have no problem with people wanting to better their lives here. It's the American way...but...they need to become American citizens and contribute (taxes) just like the rest of us. Do we need to make it easier to become an American? Maybe so, but...and I can't believe I'm saying this...we have plenty of American people in the low income range that need the resources (social programs) that are being used by non-tax payers.

Been to an emergency room lately?? Why is it my sister's children (low income taxpayer, children on medicaid, ie socialized medicine) have to wait in line at the ER, bleeding in a room full of non-tax paying illegals? It's bullshit and it happens everyday.

Um illegals do contribute. Even if they don't have a fake social and pay regular taxes, just living here requires contribution. If you are a consumer you are contributing.

Fortunately I haven't been to an emergency room lately. But did your sister and her children go around and ask for credentials? It would really be disgusting if you just assume brown people are non tax paying illegals. And as I stated above, just living here requires that they pay taxes. Yes we need to fix our ER and medical systems. Are illegals the problem? Only if you buy into the current propoganda about them...

slightofjeff · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

Um illegals do contribute. Even if they don't have a fake social and pay regular taxes, just living here requires contribution. If you are a consumer you are contributing.

Damn ... I wish I had found that out before I mailed my tax return to the IRS today. Should have just included a note, "As a consumer, I feel I've contributed enough already."

I don't know why this stance is so controversial: If you want to partake of the fruits of American society, do it legally. Become a naturalized citizen. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Also, for many of us, illegal immigration isn't primarily about keeping the Mexicans out. It's about keeping terrorists posing as Mexicans out. If a Mexican citizen can get over here illegally to work, how hard would it be for a dude with a bomb who means ill to do it?

If you can't see the problem with a loose border in this day and age ... jesus, I don't know what to tell you.

Again, not against immigrants. Not even sure I'm for a border fence. But something does need to be done to help ensure that everyone who gets over here is documented.

SilverSeed · April 2008

slightofjeff wrote:

Damn ... I wish I had found that out before I mailed my tax return to the IRS today. Should have just included a note, "As a consumer, I feel I've contributed enough already."

I don't know why this stance is so controversial: If you want to partake of the fruits of American society, do it legally. Become a naturalized citizen. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Also, for many of us, illegal immigration isn't primarily about keeping the Mexicans out. It's about keeping terrorists posing as Mexicans out. If a Mexican citizen can get over here illegally to work, how hard would it be for a dude with a bomb who means ill to do it?

If you can't see the problem with a loose border in this day and age ... jesus, I don't know what to tell you.

Again, not against immigrants. Not even sure I'm for a border fence. But something does need to be done to help ensure that everyone who gets over here is documented.

Well I see the propoganda machine has worked well on you. Don't know what to tell you. Maybe do some research on how taxes work? Then maybe some research on immigration history?

I'm sure Mexicans, or Arabs posing as Mexicans, have made your life very hard...

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun · April 2008

i'm starting to change my mind about this whole illegal immigration thing now that i'm starting to make a little money. now, i too, can live the american dream of paying second class illegal citizens to do my undesirable work instead of paying those annoying spoiled americans!

inmytree · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

I hate Chertoff, Dept. of Homeland Security... that side. My point? We're now evading our own laws to build fences. It's fucking ridiculous.

That's what I thought and I agree...

SilverSeed wrote:

Also I thought the point of an OP was to generate discussion, not necessarily make a point. But I'm new to this whole internet board thing.

My apologies...I just wanted some clarification...

lazymoon13 · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

Um illegals do contribute. Even if they don't have a fake social and pay regular taxes, just living here requires contribution. If you are a consumer you are contributing.

this is a joke right?

chopitdown · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/01/border.fence/index.html

How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.

I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.

You know what, you're prob right...most illegal immigrants are in the US and are trying to make money to help out their families and help themselves and b/c the US has a lot of good things going for it, we get a lot of immigrants. The issue is people need to follow the laws. So in keeping with your biology example, we are trying to change our porous border to one that is not so porous, a more selective membrane if you will, b/c the organism of the US is trying to protect itself.

DriftingByTheStorm · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

Maybe do some research on how taxes work?

Are you suggesting that every illegal immigrant with a job is filing their W-4 forms when they accquire employement, and that using their fraudulently obtained ITIN # to do this, they are all filing honest returns?

Conversely are you suggesting that no illegal aliens are either

a. falsifying their W-4 forms by claiming dependents they don't have, and thus reducing their IT witholdings substantialy?

b. employeed "under the table", recieving undocumented and untaxed pay from their employers?

c. self-employeed -- nannying kids, starting maid services, selling flowers on the street, powerwashing driveways, etc and otherwise avoiding filing tax returns?

This is not a condemnation of illegals to the exclusion of other income tax dodging legal american workers of various ethnicity ... but it seems to me foolish on the face of it to assume that an individual who is already in flagrant violation of one of the most fundamental laws of the United States would stop short of avoiding paying their "fair" share of income tax.

??? any comments ???

SilverSeed · April 2008

lazymoon13 wrote:

this is a joke right?

Absolutely not. Most things you buy have what attached? Taxes. It's actually quite simple to see. If you are a consumer/laborer, legal or illegal, you are contributing to the overall society.

SilverSeed · April 2008

chopitdown wrote:

You know what, you're prob right...most illegal immigrants are in the US and are trying to make money to help out their families and help themselves and b/c the US has a lot of good things going for it, we get a lot of immigrants. The issue is people need to follow the laws. So in keeping with your biology example, we are trying to change our porous border to one that is not so porous, a more selective membrane if you will, b/c the organism of the US is trying to protect itself.

I hear you, and if these laws are not as "important" who's to say which laws should be followed? To me it's like legalizing pot. Our laws concerning immigration do not show an understanding of the situation or a willingness to understand. Our own legislation is the first thing that needs to change. Just because my great grandparents came through Ellis Island doesn't make them any less immigrants.

lazymoon13 · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

Absolutely not. Most things you buy have what attached? Taxes. It's actually quite simple to see. If you are a consumer/laborer, legal or illegal, you are contributing to the overall society.

local taxes at best. so he/she would be (barely) contributing to the local society, not overall. and furthermore, how do you consider it fair to turn a blind eye to a person who isn't paying income tax like everyone else?

SilverSeed · April 2008

DriftingByTheStorm wrote:

Are you suggesting that every illegal immigrant with a job is filing their W-4 forms when they accquire employement, and that using their fraudulently obtained ITIN # to do this, they are all filing honest returns?

Conversely are you suggesting that no illegal aliens are either

a. falsifying their W-4 forms by claiming dependents they don't have, and thus reducing their IT witholdings substantialy?

b. employeed "under the table", recieving undocumented and untaxed pay from their employers?

c. self-employeed -- nannying kids, starting maid services, selling flowers on the street, powerwashing driveways, etc and otherwise avoiding filing tax returns?

This is not a condemnation of illegals to the exclusion of other income tax dodging legal american workers of various ethnicity ... but it seems to me foolish on the face of it to assume that an individual who is already in flagrant violation of one of the most fundamental laws of the United States would stop short of avoiding paying their "fair" share of income tax.

??? any comments ???

I'm not referring to income tax, though there are many that do things the "right" way even if they are illegally here (your inital scenario). Certainly I'm not so naive to not believe that many could be doing a-c. I posted in another thread a while back about the billions sitting in social security though. We know it's tied to fake socials from illegals, we just can't figure out what we can do with it. So we definitely get a few dollars from those using socials.

My point about taxes and their contribution is more concerned with taxes on items they buy. As consumers, legal or illegal, they have no choice but to pay those taxes. Hence, contribution.

SilverSeed · April 2008

lazymoon13 wrote:

local taxes at best. so he/she would be (barely) contributing to the local society, not overall. and furthermore, how do you consider it fair to turn a blind eye to a person who isn't paying income tax like everyone else?

I gotta go but I'll respond real quick.

I never said anything about turning a blind eye to tax evaders. I'm just saying illegals DO contribute.

Local taxes at best? You can't avoid the local/state/whatever taxes are placed on goods when you by them. And it's not "barely" a contribution. As is oft pointed out we have millions of illegals. Their aggregate support of our society is very large.

SilverSeed · April 2008

inmytree wrote:

That's what I thought and I agree...

My apologies...I just wanted some clarification...

No worries, I actually just re-read my response, didn't mean to sound nasty. I actually really am new to this shit (whatever my number is, is literally the amount of times I've written on the interweb). So I didn't know if I really had done something stupid...

SorrowDirge · April 2008

I live in San Diego and being in such a close proximity to Tijuana, I feel first hand the effects of illegals. Unfortunately, I have been to the hospital recently, and it was a nightmare. I had a broken arm and it took me close to 4.5 hours to be seen and the hospital was about 50% filled with mexicans. Is it wrong to stereotype and say that all of them are illegal? Probably, but it has been well documented from numerous sources that they are a hefty burden on our healthcare and our low income systems (ie. welfare, free education, etc..). Do some research.

Wake up sheeple, we are silently being invaded. Not only should we build a fence, but it should extend from Texas to California.

chopitdown · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

I hear you, and if these laws are not as "important" who's to say which laws should be followed? To me it's like legalizing pot. Our laws concerning immigration do not show an understanding of the situation or a willingness to understand. Our own legislation is the first thing that needs to change. Just because my great grandparents came through Ellis Island doesn't make them any less immigrants.

how would you propose to change our legislation? and we aren't talking about immigrants, we are talking about illegal immigrants. The US will always welcome immigrants, it just takes time to process and approve the immigrants that should be here. Everyone should have a chance to come here, but that doesn't mean everyone should get here. They didn't allow immigrants to come in that had diseases way back when and there were limits then, just as there are limits now. We cannot survive as a country if we allow everyone to come in; it's impossible. Our laws do show we understand the situation. We have to protect our citizens first and foremost. And i mean protect them economically, politically, by safety etc... If everyone had pure intentions when crossing the border I'd say sure let everyone in; the thing is...people don't always have pure intentions when entering the US; therefore, everybody should be questioned. It sucks, absolutely, but the gov't has a responsibility to it's people before the people of a different country.

slightofjeff · April 2008

SilverSeed wrote:

Well I see the propoganda machine has worked well on you. Don't know what to tell you. Maybe do some research on how taxes work? Then maybe some research on immigration history?

I'm sure Mexicans, or Arabs posing as Mexicans, have made your life very hard...

What propoganda machine? What the hell are you talking about?

Don't act like I'm stupid just because I don't agree with you. That's not a valid way to argue a point.

I hate these guys...

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