I hate these guys...
SilverSeed
Posts: 336
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/01/border.fence/index.html
How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.
I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.
How important is keeping Mexicans out? Now it's more important than the environment... Awesome priorities America. I love that since 9/11 Mexico has apparently become a terrorist threat. What happened to the "we're losing all our jobs" argument? Oh right they don't need that one if they can really scare the shit out of people. This is goddamn ridiculous.
I like to phrase the border issue in terms of biology. Let's say you have a porous barrier with an equal number of organisms and resources on each side. Now, if you shift the amount of resources so that it is heavier on one side, alas you will see the organisms follow that shift. We have a great deal more resources here, it's only natural that people will do anything they can to get here.
When Jesus said "Love your enemies" he probably didn't mean kill them...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
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who do you hate...? Mexicans...? Fence Builders...? Chertoff...?
what's your point...?
I have no problem with people wanting to better their lives here. It's the American way...but...they need to become American citizens and contribute (taxes) just like the rest of us. Do we need to make it easier to become an American? Maybe so, but...and I can't believe I'm saying this...we have plenty of American people in the low income range that need the resources (social programs) that are being used by non-tax payers.
Been to an emergency room lately?? Why is it my sister's children (low income taxpayer, children on medicaid, ie socialized medicine) have to wait in line at the ER, bleeding in a room full of non-tax paying illegals? It's bullshit and it happens everyday.
I hate Chertoff, Dept. of Homeland Security... that side. My point? We're now evading our own laws to build fences. It's fucking ridiculous.
Also I thought the point of an OP was to generate discussion, not necessarily make a point. But I'm new to this whole internet board thing.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Um illegals do contribute. Even if they don't have a fake social and pay regular taxes, just living here requires contribution. If you are a consumer you are contributing.
Fortunately I haven't been to an emergency room lately. But did your sister and her children go around and ask for credentials? It would really be disgusting if you just assume brown people are non tax paying illegals. And as I stated above, just living here requires that they pay taxes. Yes we need to fix our ER and medical systems. Are illegals the problem? Only if you buy into the current propoganda about them...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Damn ... I wish I had found that out before I mailed my tax return to the IRS today. Should have just included a note, "As a consumer, I feel I've contributed enough already."
I don't know why this stance is so controversial: If you want to partake of the fruits of American society, do it legally. Become a naturalized citizen. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Also, for many of us, illegal immigration isn't primarily about keeping the Mexicans out. It's about keeping terrorists posing as Mexicans out. If a Mexican citizen can get over here illegally to work, how hard would it be for a dude with a bomb who means ill to do it?
If you can't see the problem with a loose border in this day and age ... jesus, I don't know what to tell you.
Again, not against immigrants. Not even sure I'm for a border fence. But something does need to be done to help ensure that everyone who gets over here is documented.
for the least they could possibly do
Well I see the propoganda machine has worked well on you. Don't know what to tell you. Maybe do some research on how taxes work? Then maybe some research on immigration history?
I'm sure Mexicans, or Arabs posing as Mexicans, have made your life very hard...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
That's what I thought and I agree...
My apologies...I just wanted some clarification...
this is a joke right?
You know what, you're prob right...most illegal immigrants are in the US and are trying to make money to help out their families and help themselves and b/c the US has a lot of good things going for it, we get a lot of immigrants. The issue is people need to follow the laws. So in keeping with your biology example, we are trying to change our porous border to one that is not so porous, a more selective membrane if you will, b/c the organism of the US is trying to protect itself.
Are you suggesting that every illegal immigrant with a job is filing their W-4 forms when they accquire employement, and that using their fraudulently obtained ITIN # to do this, they are all filing honest returns?
Conversely are you suggesting that no illegal aliens are either
a. falsifying their W-4 forms by claiming dependents they don't have, and thus reducing their IT witholdings substantialy?
b. employeed "under the table", recieving undocumented and untaxed pay from their employers?
c. self-employeed -- nannying kids, starting maid services, selling flowers on the street, powerwashing driveways, etc and otherwise avoiding filing tax returns?
This is not a condemnation of illegals to the exclusion of other income tax dodging legal american workers of various ethnicity ... but it seems to me foolish on the face of it to assume that an individual who is already in flagrant violation of one of the most fundamental laws of the United States would stop short of avoiding paying their "fair" share of income tax.
??? any comments ???
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Absolutely not. Most things you buy have what attached? Taxes. It's actually quite simple to see. If you are a consumer/laborer, legal or illegal, you are contributing to the overall society.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
I hear you, and if these laws are not as "important" who's to say which laws should be followed? To me it's like legalizing pot. Our laws concerning immigration do not show an understanding of the situation or a willingness to understand. Our own legislation is the first thing that needs to change. Just because my great grandparents came through Ellis Island doesn't make them any less immigrants.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
local taxes at best. so he/she would be (barely) contributing to the local society, not overall. and furthermore, how do you consider it fair to turn a blind eye to a person who isn't paying income tax like everyone else?
I'm not referring to income tax, though there are many that do things the "right" way even if they are illegally here (your inital scenario). Certainly I'm not so naive to not believe that many could be doing a-c. I posted in another thread a while back about the billions sitting in social security though. We know it's tied to fake socials from illegals, we just can't figure out what we can do with it. So we definitely get a few dollars from those using socials.
My point about taxes and their contribution is more concerned with taxes on items they buy. As consumers, legal or illegal, they have no choice but to pay those taxes. Hence, contribution.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
I gotta go but I'll respond real quick.
I never said anything about turning a blind eye to tax evaders. I'm just saying illegals DO contribute.
Local taxes at best? You can't avoid the local/state/whatever taxes are placed on goods when you by them. And it's not "barely" a contribution. As is oft pointed out we have millions of illegals. Their aggregate support of our society is very large.
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
No worries, I actually just re-read my response, didn't mean to sound nasty. I actually really am new to this shit (whatever my number is, is literally the amount of times I've written on the interweb). So I didn't know if I really had done something stupid...
"Sometimes I think I'd be better off dead. No, wait, not me, you." -Deep Toughts, Jack Handy
Wake up sheeple, we are silently being invaded. Not only should we build a fence, but it should extend from Texas to California.
1998-07-11 Las Vegas
2000-10-22 Las Vegas
2000-10-25 San Diego
2003-06-05 San Diego
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2006-07-07 San Diego
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how would you propose to change our legislation? and we aren't talking about immigrants, we are talking about illegal immigrants. The US will always welcome immigrants, it just takes time to process and approve the immigrants that should be here. Everyone should have a chance to come here, but that doesn't mean everyone should get here. They didn't allow immigrants to come in that had diseases way back when and there were limits then, just as there are limits now. We cannot survive as a country if we allow everyone to come in; it's impossible. Our laws do show we understand the situation. We have to protect our citizens first and foremost. And i mean protect them economically, politically, by safety etc... If everyone had pure intentions when crossing the border I'd say sure let everyone in; the thing is...people don't always have pure intentions when entering the US; therefore, everybody should be questioned. It sucks, absolutely, but the gov't has a responsibility to it's people before the people of a different country.
What propoganda machine? What the hell are you talking about?
Don't act like I'm stupid just because I don't agree with you. That's not a valid way to argue a point.
for the least they could possibly do
How about FEDERAL taxes, you goof?
for the least they could possibly do
That is, after all, the reason why virtually ALL politicans are slow to do anything about the problem except for, hmmm, PUSH FOR AMNESTY!
Before pointing a single self-righteous finger at these "law-breaking" illegal immigrants, take a good look at who is hiring them and why no one is doing anything about it.
In this global economy in which we compete with nations whose industry is built on the backs of workers who earn pennies on the hour, the US has managed to stay afloat by using slave labor of its own, and that is of course also known as illegal immigrant labor.
So before you complain about hospital emergency rooms being overwhelmed by undocumented immigrants, think of the greedy employers who knowingly employ those people and their families without providing proper healthcare coverage or even paying into Medicaid or Medicare, which would normally cover the cost of medical expenses for the poor.
The Republican propaganda machine wants the American people to keep focusing on the illegal immigrants because they want the attention kept away from the businesses who are profiting from their cheap labor.
And the reason why Republicans lambasted McCain for pushing for Amenesty is because they don't want US businesses to have to pay fair and decent wages.
Again, the last statistic I read was that if California suddenly lost its illegal immigrant labor force, it would suddenly be in the hole by $10 Billion dollars, which is a lot more than it hypothetically loses through the extra burden on social services.
I think it's safe to assume that other states who have large illegal immigrant population would stand to take similarly significant losses.
I couldn't find the Orange County Register article which mentioned the $10 Billion in losses if California lost its illegal labor, but here's something I googled:
http://www.pww.org/article/view/4169/1/183/
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825
you're doing just fine...:)
keep posting and have fun...
by the way, I agree with your assessment that "illegals" do contribute as consumers...I know many will focus on the "hey, they don't pay taxes"...and I also agree with that stance, too...
My solution to the "hey, they don't pay taxes" is this: make them legal, put them on the books, have them pay taxes like you and me...problem solved...
Do you actually think a fence would stop anyone? They have ladders in Mexico. Considering the fact that tons of people made it over the Berlin Wall even though that fence was fully guarded and they would shoot you on sight makes me think that an unguarded fence would really stop no one.
They're everywhere! :eek:
naděje umírá poslední
sponger
.
Sponger, i think your points are valid and you bring us back to what IS the issue for many people ... particularly some of the economist talking heads. I don't think anyone here is BLAMING illegal immigrants ... but part of addressing this issue is addressing the supply (the illegal workers) and part of it is addressing the demand (the employers want of below market labor).
But, at the bottom line, you are correct. What we now face as a country is a systemic economic dillema. Shoring up the situation with regard to illegal workers would most certainly put short term pressures on the American economy, but it would also force the market to sort it out. If agriculture started going deep in the red (even in spite of massive subisdy by the government) because below market labor was no longer available, maybe it would force some beneficial changes in the industry collectively. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention.
Anyhow. I don't want to spend my entire morning typing a diatribe on illegal immigration and economics. I just wanted to point out that i don't think much of anyone here is really pointing blame at the illegal workers as scapegoats, so much as they are attempting to voice displeasure at a very real problem, which they happen to be in part involved in. You are correct, the government needs to get serious about enforcement, particuarly concerning the business\employer side of the equation. And you are also right that there are real economic reasons that they avoid this. But it is a problem that, for the benefit of the markets as a whole, needs to be addressed.
The argument that California and the US Economy will take a multi-billion dollar hit, and therefore we should keep allowing it, is a fallacious argument because it implies that the current situation is by necessity the way it should be. However, the reality is employment of illegal workers is a detrimental practice that attempts to subvert market forces at the expense of the American taxpayer. In other words, the market is screaming & crying that there is a problem: "Hey employers, you need to raise your wages! Hey consumers, you need to be willing to pay $3 a dozen for eggs, not $1.20!" ... and by ignoring those signals and simply saying, "Hey, screw paying the white guy $7.00 an hour to farm chickens, i'll hire a mexican to do it for $3.00 under the table" all you do is further institutionalize a detrimental practice, and force the balance of the difference on to the taxpayer who has to subsidize basic services for the illegal worker.
Got it?
If I opened it now would you not understand?
Our National Guard would be better used on our southern border defending our country instead of being in Iraq.
That was pretty hilarious. You spent all that time pretending that you actually had something to tell me. Nowhere in my post did I condone the current situation. Somewhere deep inside your thoughts you must've been imagining me saying, "Things must stay the way they are." I don't know how any sane person could've read my post and come to that conclusion. You are a real piece of work.
http://forums.pearljam.com/showthread.php?t=272825