Feminism...

to add, I've not ever seen a topless woman (in public! ) in Ontario.

Again, it's natural evolution that prevents us from just waking up in enlightenment one day. Culturally, we're not ready to act and respond totally equally on the topless issue, among others, even though the legislation is in place.

For me, the real questions are about how we create an effective interarchy. A social movement. A cultural movement. We're ready for it. Each individual has the power to be a powerful player in this endeavor. AND it is very easy, in that it's aligned with the direction of natural evolution. When flowing with evolution, the fallacies and flaws essentially fall by the wayside, seemingly effortlessly. The real challenge is in raising our own ability and levels of personal empowerment so that we can envision something new, and create. It's a change of mindset for most who look to an institution called 'the law' to create for us when it cannot. It's a change of mindset for those who consider the external power of patriarchy to be authentic empowerment when it is not.

What this movement won't hinge on is:

-separation between men and women, fostering barriers to harmonious integration

-projecting our inner conflicts onto others in any way, especially those we wish to evolve and harmonize with

-force and law

angelica wrote:

to add, I've not ever seen a topless woman (in public! ) in Ontario.

Fuck! I already started packing after reading your first post on this and then I see this one. How disappointing. I was all prepared to move to Ontario and finally settle into a place I could truely call home.

angelica wrote:

For me, the real questions are about how we create an effective interarchy. A social movement. A cultural movement. We're ready for it. Each individual has the power to be a powerful player in this endeavor. AND it is very easy, in that it's aligned with the direction of natural evolution. When flowing with evolution, the fallacies and flaws essentially fall by the wayside, seemingly effortlessly. The real challenge is in raising our own ability and levels of personal empowerment so that we can envision something new, and create. It's a change of mindset for most who look to an institution called 'the law' to create for us when it cannot. It's a change of mindset for those who consider the external power of patriarchy to be authentic empowerment when it is not.

What this movement won't hinge on is:

-separation between men and women, fostering barriers to harmonious integration

-projecting our inner conflicts onto others in any way, especially those we wish to evolve and harmonize with

-force and law

What is it you think you're ready for? I'm sure that whatever it is, I doubt I share the same thoughts. So why dotn you go frist and let me know how it works out for you. Besides if we were ready for it, it'd already be in motion. And if it were as easy as you seem to think also we'd already be doing whatever it is youre gungho about.

angelica wrote:

it's like being a Pearl Jam fan...those who are into it are, and know what it's about....those who are not into them..are not. It's simple stuff. That's the beauty of an interachy.

Oh please being into pearl jam is not anything like changing the mindset of an entire species. i am totally into pearl jam, but what you speak of is just intangible becuase most people don't give a shit. thye are generally happy with their lot in life and see no reason to change. you say its simple. if it were so simple then we wouldn't be ahving this discussion. good luck though.

Collin wrote:

Well, like Angelica pointed out it's legal in Ontario and I did a quick search it seems to be legal in many places.

But what do you want? Women having that right or women walking around topless? Like Angelica said, it's legal and women don't walk around topless.



I never said only the Western world counts. I'm merely pointing out the injustices of certain feminists in the Western world. You choose to ignore them (?) because feminism is still needed in the world.



Men feel pressured towards violence?

Anyway, woman already don't need men to fix their cars. That is a bogus fight. I don't think anyone is stopping women from fixing their own cars. My girlfriend knows more about cars than me and can definitely fix a car. Why? Not because she fougth against the patriachal society and became a strong woman, no she can do those things because she's interested in them and took classes. How many women do you know that are even interested in fixing cars? That would go to these classes even if they were offered for free? I can't fix a car. I don't feel inadequate. If I want to learn I will, my girlfriend can teach me.

I think at some point feminists will have to accept that men and women are different and will always be different. Guys will be more interested in cars and buildings. Women will be more interested in ballet and caring for stuff. The possibilities are here for both men and women to do what they want. Like I said, my girlfriend took classes to learn how to mend cars. She was the only girl. One of my best friends went to a prestigious ballet school, there were only three guys. I think this comes down to what Angelica said. Some obstacles need to be overcome from within. This guy was ridiculed by other guys but he didn't give a damn. My girlfriend got a lot of rude comments from the guys there, but she decided that it's not because they still have a narrow view on how life should be that she should be a victim of it (of course she didn't say it like that, she said 'fuck 'em. I don't care what they think').

This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind. It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.

Tell me, sc, what exactly would you do to create a world where women can fix cars...? You know women can already choose to do so... So what would you do?

I always hold doors open. Always for men and women. I have never done so because I feel they are helpless. It's just polite. Where did you even get the notion men open doors because they feel women are helpless or need help? Perhaps they just want to get in your pants?

Perhaps it's time to do things instead of complaining. If you want to fix your own car. Take classes. If they tell you you can't follow them because you are a woman, you have a fight to fight and rest assured, if you take it to court you will win.

I was going to sit down today to thoughtfully address your posts and, since you asked about feminism, provide a little Feminism 101. But after reading this, I give up. It's just yet another post from you that makes me feel like you are either incapable of or uninterested in really understanding where feminists are coming from. You seem like a decent, intelligent guy, so I hope you don't take that the wrong way.

Collin wrote:

This is a fight from within. It's not about changing other people's minds, it's about changing your mind.

it is a fight from within AND from the outside as well. truly, i would think most would understand that. the ideas begin within, and collectively as many believe and agree on these ideas...they begin to process and work towards the change on the outside. if people/women didn't...the right to vote, the right to make your own choices, the right to make decisions for your own body, etc...never would've happened.


and hello...yes, a good part of it IS about 'changing people's minds'...their perceptions....etc. all the work for equality, not just for women, but equality and anti-discrimination in general, ALL about changing people's peceptions.

Collin wrote:

It's about not letting yourself be a victim. Perhaps if more people started doing that you'd see more guys doing ballet and girls fixing car. Who knows? I just don't think we need to push women to fix cars and guys to do ballet.

again, it is and it isn't. no one chooses to be a victim, but sometimes there ARe victims, and certainly not b/c they chose it, but simply b/c they are. i DO understand your point, and overall i do agree with the 'not letting yourself being a victim mentality'...but i ALSO know sometimes there is no choice in it.


as to the whole male/female perspectives, again....whaqt holds true for the majorty doesn't mean a minority aren't interested...and i agree, all should choose their own way, their likes/dislikes...and yes....both genders need to feel and work towards acceptance. i do agree however, there is no need to push such...people can make their own choices, and do, and that's as it should be.



here's a few things that i believe are on the feminst agenda of today:


as of right now in the US, many, many health plans do NOT cover the cost of BC pills, yet cover the cost of viagra. this leaves many women in a difficult situation b/c for many, BC pills are the best option for their reproductive control, yet can be prohibitvely expensive to buy monthly w/o a prescription plan that covers a good portion of the cost. many, many feminists agree this is an important issue and are fighting to get HMOs to cover BC pills in ther prescription plans.

perhaps about a year ago, i think, there was talk of health insurance companies not covering overnight hospital stays for women who just underwent mastectomies. there was a petition drive and awareness campaign to pressure health insurance companies to cover at least a 2 day hospital stay, as on average, is recommended by doctors.


these are just 2 examples off the top of my head, both of a medical nature, and yet still definitely 'women's issues'...and thus of great interest to many feminists. these are just 2 of many ideas that women work towards changing/securing, for all women. it's great to say change comes from within, obstacles overcome from within...a fight from within. on many levels, you're right...it IS. but on important legislative/health issues, it's a fight for larger society and it can and should be dealt with on a large-scale level. a woman just undergoing a mastectomy, a difficult obstacle to overcome as it is, should not feel she has to battle her HMO alone to get the proper care she deserves, that doctors recommend, etc. same thing with BC. many, many groups/individuals fight to reverse roe vs. wade, to chip away at women's access and choices for BC in general, etc. one can try to alter public perception of such, one can work to ensure access for all women, etc. it is not simply an individual battle, or it shouldn't be imo anyway. thus why feminism as an ideal is still quite relevant and necessary.

walden freeman wrote:

This thread is racism against chauvenists.

the above statement is incorrect and makes no sense.

CorporateWhore wrote:

Yer mom makes no sense

ooh what a zinger. im scorched. go back to junior high. :rolleyes: