Feminism...

riffrandall · August 2008

Collin wrote:

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

I went to Smith.
While this does not automatically qualify me as an expert on feminism, it certainly gives me a leg up over- say, a guy shooting from the hip.

Feminism is not about Femi-nazi-ism (although great use of a term- nazi- that is blisteringly offensive to a good portion of the populace). Feminism in its true form is about being a strong woman and feeling as though you have a right to be treated the same way as men. Same jobs, same pay, same treatment in society.. the whole 9. And yes, that would include same eligibility for the draft.
Should women be in combat? Hmm.. well, lets ask our partners in the Israeli Army, see what they say.

Feminists get a bad rap because people see them as threatening & also crazy because of a few throughout history. They associate them with the 'burn the bra' women of the 70s- which I have to say I don't understand- if I ever burned my bra I would look ridiculous.

Danimal · August 2008

I think women should be able to vote. Until that happens, this world is just an unfair place.

_ · August 2008

Collin wrote:

I don't think I represent feminism. I'm qualified to define what I see because I am a human being and I have a right to voice my opinion. It doesn't mean I'm right. I have observed feminism, I think the definitions that feminists have given me are not accurate. Just like one feminist might not agree with what another feminist classifies as feminism.

What I don't understand is, how can one not agree with feminists' definition of feminism? You can say your observations of their actions don't seem to align with their stated beliefs. But you can't tell someone else the purpose of their own movement.

I see what you're saying about disagreement among feminists, but that is resolved by having different schools of feminist thought. Plus, I think there is more room to bicker about purpose or strategy or whatever from within a movement. But how can someone who's not on a certain team claim to know more about that team and their strategy than the actual members?

_ · August 2008

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

angelica · August 2008

scb wrote:

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

I'm not much big on using patriarchal ways to affect change, since I see it as throwing fuel on the fire of patriarchy.

As long as one in four of our female children are being sexually assaulted, we've definitely got some big problems!

I do hear you about the frustration trying to show people something they are unwilling to see!

stonedponey · August 2008

angelica wrote:

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

I'm not much big on using patriarchal ways to affect change, since I see it as throwing fuel on the fire of patriarchy.

As long as one in four of our female children are being sexually assaulted, we've definitely got some big problems!

I do hear you about the frustration trying to show people something they are unwilling to see!

well how democratic of you to include men in the objectification. it truly concerns me deeply how men are held up as mere sex objects and that that is how their worth is measured. poor poor men. how ever will thye cope with this unjust attitude towards them.

Collin · August 2008

scb wrote:

What I don't understand is, how can one not agree with feminists' definition of feminism?

You read the definition or definitions and compare that with the actions. If their actions don't align with said definition I have no other choice but to conclude that definition is wrong.

You can say your observations of their actions don't seem to align with their stated beliefs.

Yes, that would be disagreeing.

But you can't tell someone else the purpose of their own movement.

Of course, I can. I have a right to express my opinion. And like I already said, this doesn't mean I'm right.

I see what you're saying about disagreement among feminists, but that is resolved by having different schools of feminist thought. Plus, I think there is more room to bicker about purpose or strategy or whatever from within a movement. But how can someone who's not on a certain team claim to know more about that team and their strategy than the actual members?

Did I claim to know more about feminism or their strategy? I don't think so. I offered my opinion.

The only thing I have done here is give my opinion. And that's not even allowed because I'm not a feminist? So only feminists can have an opinion about feminism?

How can we have a discussion about feminism if I'm not allowed to express my views about it?

Collin · August 2008

angelica wrote:

Men and women are both being objectified to scary degrees, and we're all mostly oblivious to it. Because we've been taught to deny our 'feminine' receptive intelligences of emotion and intuition.

It sounds like you're saying that men and women are being objectified because we've been taught to think like men, or we've been stimulated to use our "male" intelligence. Or that we're oblvious to it because of the same reason.

And if a person sees the objectification it is because he uses his 'feminine' intelligence.

That is a valid view, Angelica. But I disagree.

Collin · August 2008

scb wrote:

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

Now you are doing the exact same thing I did, but was not allowed to do: expressing an opinion about a group you are not a member of.

Note that I said in the very beginning of this thread that what I said did not count for every feminist.

But I will address the things you said instead of saying you can't express your opinion.

Sometimes I indeed don't see what the fuss is about and sometimes I do.
Sometimes I indeed think feminists see injustice where it doesn't exist. Sometimes there is justice, but that's not enough they support affirmative action, for example. And sometimes there is injustice towards women.
I know women are being objectified. But you'll have to elaborate on that one before I can comment.
I think some issues are individual matters.

As a feminist, I sometimes find it difficult to show people things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see. But once I've seen it, I can't then pretend it's not there. Just because others don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just because you don't see the injustice feminists support, the hypocrisy of feminists... doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've seen it and I can't pretend it's not there. And as a man, I sometimes find it difficult to show feminists things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see.

I am not talking about all feminists, I acknowledge that there are feminists who are not hypocritical or don't support injustice, imo, and who are willing to have a debate about it and are open to view other people's opinions.

surfanddestroy · August 2008

I am a female and to be honest feminists tent to bug me (not always, just sometimes) In my experience I have always been treated equal to men, i can have the same jobs get paid the same wage etc.
I find it kind of degrading for women to constantly be rude and obnoxious to men for doing nice things for them, I have seen men offer to help carry things and the woman will bite his head of because they dont need help or they dont need someone to open the door for them. Maybe he is just trying to be nice.
I am not saying that all feminists are like this, and I do agree with some of the things feminists are fighting for but we musn't forget that as women we do get some rights that men dont.

Jeanie · August 2008

surfanddestroy wrote:

.... but we musn't forget that as women we do get some rights that men dont.

Just curious. What like?

Anon · August 2008

Jeanie wrote:

Just curious. What like?

the right to getting stretch marks when you have kids!

Jeanie · August 2008

Pj_Gurl wrote:

the right to getting stretch marks when you have kids!

Who needs kids to get those suckers? They come anyway! :(

I'm just stumped is all. Maybe I'm tired, but I can't think of anything women get that men don't. Well except for menstruation and they can have mine if they want it!

meme · August 2008

Collin wrote:

I feel bad for the feminists who do seem to have the right idea and spirit and I support their goals.

The right idea as defined by a guy, that's what feminism is all about

angelica · August 2008

stonedponey wrote:

well how democratic of you to include men in the objectification. it truly concerns me deeply how men are held up as mere sex objects and that that is how their worth is measured. poor poor men. how ever will thye cope with this unjust attitude towards them.

I refer to the deeper meaning of 'objectification'. Objectification comes from that in our cultures, we are taught to disidentify with our emotions and emotional intelligence. When we do so, we lack the filtering to perceive the emotions of others and we therefore treat them as our desensitization dictates, as objects, rather than attune with and harmonize with them as sensitive beings we are connected to in human experience. We are taught that science, and the objective, logical view is the only "real" view, and therefore the vast majority of the population denies their base connection in their own experiences (which creates the base of codependency which is currently epidemic). The average person is ensnared within the tribal mindset, unable to be whole and individuated.

The consequences are very serious. The cycles continue.

angelica · August 2008

Collin wrote:

It sounds like you're saying that men and women are being objectified because we've been taught to think like men, or we've been stimulated to use our "male" intelligence. Or that we're oblvious to it because of the same reason.

And if a person sees the objectification it is because he uses his 'feminine' intelligence.

That is a valid view, Angelica. But I disagree.

see my last post..

and by 'male' intelligence, I refer to what is symbolically 'male' intelligence, and mostly identified with males: linear, left-brained logic, reason, etc.

This is by no means something inherent to males, and not in females. Women also are taught to identify with the 'male' intelligences - every day in school for example... Women tend to have more connectors between the left and right hemispheres of the brain, however, and tend to maintain this left/right balance a little more effectively. Women, and the minority of men (30% according to personality typing) have strengths in the "feminine" intelligences.

_ · August 2008

Collin wrote:

You read the definition or definitions and compare that with the actions. If their actions don't align with said definition I have no other choice but to conclude that definition is wrong.

Yes, that would be disagreeing.

Of course, I can. I have a right to express my opinion. And like I already said, this doesn't mean I'm right.

Did I claim to know more about feminism or their strategy? I don't think so. I offered my opinion.

The only thing I have done here is give my opinion. And that's not even allowed because I'm not a feminist? So only feminists can have an opinion about feminism?

How can we have a discussion about feminism if I'm not allowed to express my views about it?

I didn't say you're not allowed to have opinions or express your views. I'm just saying I think there's a fine line between expressing your observations of the actions of a person or group and trying to put your definition on their movement. Purpose, definition, etc. can only come from within in such cases; they can't be dictated by external sources. So you can say you think some feminists' actions are sexist (or whatever you mean to say), but you can't rightfully say that feminists hate men or that feminism is about being superior to men (or that kind of thing).

_ · August 2008

Collin wrote:

scb wrote:

I think many people who have a problem with feminism feel this way because they don't see what all the fuss is about. They think feminists are seeing injustice where it does not exist. They don't see the parallels between injustice against women and injustice against other groups. They don't see women as being objectified or, if they do, they don't see a problem with it. They prefer to see certain issues as individual rather than systemic. Etc. (No, Collin, I'm not saying that each of these statements rings true with everyone who has a problem with feminism.)

Now you are doing the exact same thing I did, but was not allowed to do: expressing an opinion about a group you are not a member of.

No I'm not. I purposely put enough qualifiers in that statement to make sure that didn't happen. I'm just stating what I've observed of and been told by some people who have a problem with feminism. Feel free to tell me if this doesn't represent you (I never said it did), but I know some people who have the opinions I mentioned. Maybe the analogy also breaks down in my mind because, although feminism is clearly a movement/school of thought, I see it as individuals - not a cohesive group - who disagree (for individual reasons) with feminism.

angelica · August 2008

scb wrote:

I didn't say you're not allowed to have opinions or express your views. I'm just saying I think there's a fine line between expressing your observations of the actions of a person or group and trying to put your definition on their movement. Purpose, definition, etc. can only come from within in such cases; they can't be dictated by external sources. So you can say you think some feminists' actions are sexist (or whatever you mean to say), but you can't rightfully say that feminists hate men or that feminism is about being superior to men (or that kind of thing).

While purpose and definition IS dictated from within, he may be accurate in his assessment of such purpose/definition. Individuals/groups are often unconscious of their ... unconscious ... or deeper agendas, and many times this can be spotted with observation.

_ · August 2008

Collin wrote:

Just because you don't see the injustice feminists support, the hypocrisy of feminists... doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I've seen it and I can't pretend it's not there. And as a man, I sometimes find it difficult to show feminists things they can't (or won't, or aren't ready to) see.

It seems to me like you're making two distinct arguments:

1. There is an injustice that you see.

2. That feminism supports it.

We can debate the first one all you want. I'm not sure you've expressly named the injustice yet, so I'm all ears.

As I've mentioned before, however, you can try to argue that feminism supports this injustice in deed, but I don't think you're qualified to represent what it supports in principle.

Feminism...

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