Another celebrity involved with Dog Fighting and Narcotics....

Juberoo wrote:

Assault rifles...you know, like the ones soldiers carry. AK47s, armor piercing pistols, N57s, etc.

I bet you 10 to 1 that they were semi-automatic military style firearms. No more dangerous than your average "sporting" rifle or shotgun. If they weren't then he faces federal charges for having an illegal machine gun. That's 10 years in prison or $250,000 fine.

Wow.

surferdude wrote:

The only person to blame for America's drug issues is the user, period. Personal responsibility should cut across all races and socio-economic backgrounds.

I don't think that it's as cut and dry as that... If I grew up in a home or neighborhood where drug use was common place, readily available and even glorified, drugs might not seem like a bad thing to me... Every teenager gives in a little bit to peer pressure to fit in, and the problem with many of the drugs, is that once you are get into them, it's a LONG HARD road out.

blackredyellow wrote:

I don't think that it's as cut and dry as that... If I grew up in a home or neighborhood where drug use was common place, readily available and even glorified, drugs might not seem like a bad thing to me... Every teenager gives in a little bit to peer pressure to fit in, and the problem with many of the drugs, is that once you are get into them, it's a LONG HARD road out.

It's an interesting discussion. You are both right. On one hand, when the environment is so full of drugs and other readilly available bad choices, any person is more likely to succomb. I would say that you take then ten totally clean, white, suburban kids and put them in such an environment, some (i.e. 3) would have made an impulsive bad choice that led them down that road. The environment (the drug dealers, pushers, etc.) is a contributer. On the other hand, you can take each of those three and say "YOU made a choice. You had a responsibility to yourself and you failed yourself."

Blacks commit more crimes than whites in the US. It is statistically provable that it is not coincidence. So do blacks, therefore, have less positive "personal responsibility" or is it that those with "marginal personal responsibility" (i.e. some propensity to do stupid shit) are more likely to fuck up than suburbanites with the same "marginal personal responsibility" because whitey just does not have the opportunites in his face?

I think we all have character flaws, some worse than others. But some of us also have more likelyhood for those flaws to be exploited. And that is my feeling as to the key difference between blacks and whites. These numbers are totally made up, but if an average 17 year old male in an upper class third ring suburb has a 5 percent chance of committing a felony, I think that same person would have, say a 20 percent chance in a crime-ridden area.

Uncle Leo wrote:

It's an interesting discussion. You are both right. On one hand, when the environment is so full of drugs and other readilly available bad choices, any person is more likely to succomb. I would say that you take then ten totally clean, white, suburban kids and put them in such an environment, some (i.e. 3) would have made an impulsive bad choice that led them down that road. The environment (the drug dealers, pushers, etc.) is a contributer. On the other hand, you can take each of those three and say "YOU made a choice. You had a responsibility to yourself and you failed yourself."

As well, the environment, and the interactions with the individual with family, caregivers etc., along with the person's existing inner predispositions creates the fertile soil of potential drug use.

There are levels of accountability beyond merely one person. Even though ultimately it is entirely up to the individual to deal with and transcend any existing drug problems.

angelica wrote:

I 100% agree. Drug issues go way beyond blaming the user (and are about accountabily, not blame. Blame on any level perpetuates problems). There are far reaching variables with drug issues and how they begin, issues that extend beyond the individual.

I disagree. In the end we only have our selves to blame for the drugs we take. No one's forcing me to have my morning coffee but me or that 14 year kid to take that hit but him/herself. I fully understand there are environment issues and all that other crap but in the end, as Ed would say, I Am Mine.

I think you run into a world of trouble when you place personal responsibility and accountability on anyone or anything other than the individual. It's disrespectful and disempowering. All the other factors that may make it harder for someone to make right choices in no way absolve the individual of responsibility or accountability for his/her choices. I want society to work on providing as healthy an evironment as it can to as many people as possible but where society fails to do this I will not accept absolving individuals from the consequences or responsibility for their actions.

surferdude wrote:

I disagree. In the end we only have our selves to blame for the drugs we take. No one's forcing me to have my morning coffee but me or that 14 year kid to take that hit but him/herself. I fully understand there are environment issues and all that other crap but in the end, as Ed would say, I Am Mine.

I think you run into a world of trouble when you place personal responsibility and accountability on anyone or anything other than the individual. It's disrespectful and disempowering. All the other factors that may make it harder for someone to make right choices in no way absolve the individual of responsibility or accountability for his/her choices. I want society to work on providing as healthy an evironment as it can to as many people as possible but where society fails to do this I will not accept absolving individuals from the consequences or responsibility for their actions.

But the first post called out race, so this is not just about DMX and Vick but about "those people." Therefore, rather than talk about them and other individual choice makers, particularly given who started the thread, it makes some of us have to adress the implication that blacks are morally, intellectually or otherwise inferior, in general.

Therefore, to say "personal responsibility", end of story is, if we accept that blacks have more per capita issues with chemical dependancy, is to say that blacks are just more irresponsible. That is why I bring up the other factors (that you even just acknowledged) that make it that much tougher for those in some situations to make the right choice. On an individual level, when it's you or the 16 year old kid in East St. Louis, yes, you have to send him the message (and others who observe him) that he made choices in his life and he has to pay for them.

Perhaps I'm just being the over-sensitive white liberal--but I am partly reacting to the recent discussions by a few members that blacks are worse off for one simple reason: inferiority.

Another thing about personal responsibility...when it's that black and white ("the user and nobody else"), it sort of absolves the kingpins/suppliers, etc. of their role and responsibility. I recently read one of those "self awarness books" that discussed "blame" vs. "contribution." I feel that there are a lot of non-users making tons of money that are contributors.

angelica wrote:

When we focus only on the accountability of the user, and do not address the other myriad contributions to the problem, we ignore the full problem and thereby lessen our ability to successfully resolve it.

But I'm not focusing on the full problem, I'm focusing on the individual. When this is done to all who are involved in the problem the issue is being addressed and all are held accountable for their actions. However, when dealing with the individual I do not care about the full problem, I only care about the choices this person is making with their life.

surferdude wrote:

No, it doesn't absolfe the kingpins/suppliers. It just means you hold them accountable for their actions only. Just as in WWII we did not allow people to say "well Hitler told me to do it", we held all people accountable for their actions, including the kingpins.

Well you brought up personal responsibility in response to my post that claimed that there are a lot of people responsible for drug isses. You said (and I paraphrase) "it is the responsibility of the user. Period." I guess we all interpret those sentences differently. Personally responsibility is important and its also the thing that helps execs at tobacco, fast food, soda, etc. companies sleep at night.

Well, I have to take the personall responsibility to get back to work. I can blame nobody but myself...